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Here is some background, before I ask some questions.

We have been together for nearly 13 years, and just celebrated our 10th anniversary in May. We were together a year before getting engaged, then engaged for for another 1.5 years before marrying. We got two wonderful cats whom we loved as our own children(if we had them). We bought a house together, and built what seemed to be a great life together. We were always like "two peas in a pod", loved doing things together, from walking, biking, going on romantic trips to Mexico or Niagra, Vegas, Atlantic City, you name it. We always had a blast, and it seemed to me, and everyone else that we were very much in love, and a "poster couple". We saw eye to eye on most everything, from politics to staying fit, and what we wanted our life to be. We were cutesy with each other, even sang goofy little songs to each other, even up till now. We had wonderful traditions that we'd do for Christmas, and other special occasions. In short, it seemed like we were in a wonderful state of bliss, and never once had I thought our marriage would EVER end. It wasn't perfect, nothing ever is, we had our ups and downs. I never once dreamed, in my worst nightmares that she would ever want to leave. Just this past spring we went on our 10th anniversary trip to Playa Del Carmen, had a great time, maybe the best trip ever. We bought a new boat(major financial committment), and have been taking that out and having a blast. Overall, she is the most thoughtful, loving, and wonderful person I have ever known. I never once felt unloved, unattractive, or "unmanly" in her eyes.

Now, there have been issues during those 10 years, some with sex. In more recent years, but probably at least half of the marriage, she didn't seem all that interested in it. She had some physical issues, and what she described as a "low libido". We tried some things to make it more fun for her, including toys, watching porn together, etc. Sometimes it seemingly worked really well. We had some other issues as well, mostly regarding my job, and her desire for me to improve the situation. Things had stagnated for me(I work in the private sector as a software developer), but I had made some attempts to improve the situation. I started my own business on the side, which was key in us being able to afford boats. She works for the government, and has accelerated quickly, surpassing me in income, etc. She really wants me to change jobs, and I do to, but it's not always that easy or simple. Bottom line is, that is something that she does not respect about me at all - she feels I am either apathetic or lazy about it, or afraid to change.

None of these issues seemed like anything that couldn't be overcome. She was still acting the same, loving way towards me, I still felt like were were completely connected and symbiotic. Yes, the bedroom issues lingered, but in our recent trip in Mexico, things were pretty spontaneous and fun in that department. Neither of us had ever been unfaithful or interested in being so.

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed her becoming somewhat emotionally distant. Nearly everything I said or did seemed to annoy her, and this of course led to me being annoyed or upset, and a lot of bickering or snipping would follow. She seemed very different to me, almost like "pod" version of the person I have known for the last 13 years. I knew something was wrong, but didn't want to believe it. It seemed unfathomable and foreign. For the very first time in 13 years, I didn't feel like I knew how she felt about me, and us. Eventually I confronted her, and she came out with IT.

She told me that she no longer saw me as a lover, but as a friend, more like a brother that she had fun with. She told me it had been going on for years, that her desire was there, but just not with me(in contrast to her previous "low libido" explanation). She no longer finds me "manly" or attractive to her in that way. She said that maybe we should end our marriage and move on with our lives.

I was floored, shattered, and my world is now upside down. I could not eat, sleep or work. I still cannot believe it. Of course, she said I should have known, etc. The kind of usual "breakup" stuff. We talked it out some, and agreed that maybe we should spend some time apart and try "dating" each other and see if the attraction returns. I decided to be the man, and stepped up, offering to be the one who moves out. The next day I rented an apartment, got my affairs in order, etc. I suggested that we spend a couple of weeks without much contact, other than me coming to our house to cut the grass and whatever else needs to be done. She said she doesn't want to throw away the last 13 years, and because of our vows to one another, will give this a try. Overall though, she obviously isn't making any promises, and I don't feel that she is very hopeful - which makes total sense since she is the one who wanted to end the marriage.

My plans have been to spend my alone time trying to re-find myself. I know there are a lot of things that I should improve on with myself. I had fallen to bad habits, annoying habits around her. There were definitely times where I was insensitive, and not the best husband I could be. I also plan to get things moving with my professional career, not just for her, but for me, because frankly I have been miserable at my job. I want to learn more about stress management, and handle it more like a man rather than a whiny child, which I freely admit I could be at times. I want to regain the "independant" mindset for myself. After a couple of weeks, we plan to start "dating". Maybe dinner at a new restaurant, maybe a boat trip, or maybe I'll surprise her with something from left field like an opera or a show(something she always wanted us to do). I really don't know, because I haven't had to think like this in a very long time.

My main question is, with the information I have given, and the plan we are taking, is this the right approach? She is very adverse to any kind of counseling, and while I'm open to it, I'm often leery of it as I've heard so many stories of it doing more harm than good. She really is insistent on "seeing how things go" first with this separation period. I just want to know if I am doing the right things, as this means so much to me, as does she. Are there tips, or anything that I can do that will ever make her see me again as a "man" and not a "brother"?


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John,

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed her becoming somewhat emotionally distant. Nearly everything I said or did seemed to annoy her

The fact that everything you said annoyed her, and the suddenness of her feelings, means she is likely in an affair. The reason your decency annoyed her is that it makes her feel guilty about what she is doing to you.

For now don't ask her if she is in an affair, because she will deny and you will not get anywhere, act as if you accept her cover story. Check the phone bill to determine who she is texting excessively, and snoop on her internet activity.

I hope you are right, but I have a strong feeling you are not.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted by Gamma
John,

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed her becoming somewhat emotionally distant. Nearly everything I said or did seemed to annoy her

The fact that everything you said annoyed her, and the suddenness of her feelings, means she is likely in an affair. The reason your decency annoyed her is that it makes her feel guilty about what she is doing to you.

For now don't ask her if she is in an affair, because she will deny and you will not get anywhere, act as if you accept her cover story. Check the phone bill to determine who she is texting excessively, and snoop on her internet activity.

I hope you are right, but I have a strong feeling you are not.

God Bless
Gamma


I'm definitely sure it's not an affair. We both work from home, and are around each other almost all of the time. We even go to the same gym, and I'd know if she was, I can assure you.

The way I feel is that our marriage is very good in most ways, but the major issue that has her feeling this way. Rather than dismiss her issue by constantly reminding of her of all the good things(and it's not easy, trust me), is that I want to do my best to get that spark back between us(I know it takes time and cannot be forced though). My gut tells me the time apart is a step in the right direction, as well as personally regaining some of the independence that initially was a part of who I was and attractive to her.

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Hi John, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry you are here.

What has happened is that your wife fell out of love with you a few years ago. You probably stopped spending as much time together and when that happens, the couple falls out of love. That explains why she lost interest in having sex with you. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. Once they lose the emotional attachment [fall out of love] sex becomes a unpleasant chore.

In the meantime, she met someone else and fell in love with him. It had to be someone she was spending a lot of time with, even if it was on the internet or the phone. When that happened, she had a new point of comparison and your past few years paled in comparison to her affair.

If you do some minor sleuthing you will find that she is having an affair.

The way she strategized this was to keep the affair super secret, tell you she wants a divorce, get you kicked out and then pretend she meets someone new. That way you won't blame the divorce on her affair.

I am so sorry to tell you all this, but I am certain if you hire a PI for a few days, you will find I am correct. And if you get her past cell phone bills, emails, etc, you will find that the affair has been going on for some time.

There is a strong possibility that we can help you save your marriage if you want to save it, though. You have made many strategic mistakes that will be tough to overcome, but we can help if you are willing to do the work.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Moving out was a HUGE strategic mistake that will make it harder to save your marriage. I would move back home.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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John,
If you read the opening posts of many of the threads on this forum, especially in the Surviving an Affair section, you will find carbon copies of what you wrote. In all of these cases the spouses are having affairs. Your wife is one of them. The pattern is uncannily the same for most people, and the symptoms your wife is exhibiting are classic.

It takes the betrayed spouses a while to catch on that an affair is going on, but the people who post here can spot the affair a mile away blindfolded with two hands tied behind their backs.

You can save your marriage but you must take these steps:

1) Move back in the house.
2) Snoop on your wife. Hire a PI, put spyware on her phone and computuers, and put a VAR in her car.
3) Go into plan A. No angry outbursts or disrespectful judgments.
4) When you find evidence of the affair, you must confront your wife, drive off the other man, and expose what happened the family and friends of him and your wife, asking them to support you in your marriage by not supporting their affair. Ask for the help and influence.
5)After exposure, you must go into Plan A. It is explained here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

I would also read the articles on infidelity posted on this site. Dr. Harely's writings will awaken in you a better understanding of what happened in your marriage, and what your wife is experiencing now.

Good luck, and we are very sorry you are here.

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Time apart is not a step in the right direction.

Making love bank deposits is a step in the right direction.

Please read the Basic Concepts:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1000_video.html


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I did read all of that.

I don't want to be apart, but if I did not leave, she was going to. We both agreed that this is temporary, and that we are going to work on "rekindling" the flame, by dating one another, so to speak. At some point I do plan on moving back home, regardless of how being apart works out.

For those who think it's an affair, I am virtually 100% certain that it not - I don't want to elaborate on that just yet, this is a public forum after all.

However, I do not rule out that she has found herself attracted to another man, and causing her to rethink how she feels towards me. That seems like a difficult thing to overcome or ask about without coming off as being weak, or accusatory.

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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
I did read all of that.

I don't want to be apart, but if I did not leave, she was going to. We both agreed that this is temporary, and that we are going to work on "rekindling" the flame, by dating one another, so to speak. At some point I do plan on moving back home, regardless of how being apart works out.

If you want to "rekindle" something do you move away? You can't very well save a marriage if you are not there. That is just the story she gave you to get you moved out. A very typical, classic ruse employed by cheating spouses.

If your car is broken down in the garage, do you drive to Cleveland to fix the car? Of course not. You go into the garage and fix the car. Saying that the purpose of kicking you out is to work on the marriage is a common form of gaslighting that we see every day on this forum. It always come from someone who is in an affair.

I seriously doubt she would have moved out if you had not. Even if she had, it would have made it easier to save your marriage if she DID. By moving out, you are only facilitating her goal of destroying your marriage.

Quote
For those who think it's an affair, I am virtually 100% certain that it not - I don't want to elaborate on that just yet, this is a public forum after all.

Why are you certain?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
However, I do not rule out that she has found herself attracted to another man, and causing her to rethink how she feels towards me. That seems like a difficult thing to overcome or ask about without coming off as being weak, or accusatory.

We do not want you to accuse her. We want you to get the facts and evidence and then come back here. We will tell you what to do next. We do not support making blind accusations. We deal in hard facts.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings." here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If you want to "rekindle" something do you move away?

The moving away isn't about the rekindling. My wife and I spend, and always have, a very large amount of time together. We work together from home, we spend the entire weekends together doing things we like. She and I have always seen things mostly the same way, and like and enjoy most of the same things. At times, more so in recent years, we've been tending to grate upon one another. The grating has led to animosity, arguing, and sniping. This seems to have gotten particularly worse, especially with my work related stress coming into play. In her words, the lack of intimacy combined with these increasing factors made her rethink being married to me.

Moving out, in my mind, and hers, is a way for us to alleviate the exacerbation and reflect on some things. Refocus on ourselves a bit, and try to start dating each other so to speak and see if that spark returns. I see both of our points of view, and of course there is no guarantee that it will return. We both understand that it's not the initial "lust" we are looking for, just a normal attraction between a man and woman. Right now she sees me as a roommate, which seems to be a pretty common thing, and not just a sign that she is/was cheating. Not every situation is the same, and trust me, I'm not in some kind of denial. I have access to everything I need to know that she is not, so let's just leave it at that.

What I need is real answers that apply to our actual issues - which is mainly that she has lost respect for me, and that I have also fallen into a number of bad habits that facilitated that. I know the answer is not trying to change who I am, but I do need to try to change some things about me to be more like the man she fell in love with. I'm certainly not going to do some weak, desperate thing like try to change who I am. I know that would make her respect me less.

Some things she has said are encouraging, others not as much. I understand for her it's different right now - this has been weighing on her for some time, it's all brand new for me. Fighting the urge to break down and cry, or beg for her to stay with me is tough, but that "stiff upper lip" I feel is something I need to do, I think most would agree? I feel stronger by the day, and I do think that in the end I can focus on myself and rebuilding myself, regardless of the outcome of my marriage to her. Somehow I lost myself, and in that way I feel I lost her respect, and desire.

She says she does want to try and save the marriage. She certainly feels guilt over hurting me so badly, that much I can see plainly. So she might just be giving me lip service, I don't know, but I don't have much else to go on here. My biggest worry now is I don't want to sink into a depression. Living alone in a new apartment is horrifyingly sad to me when I've been accustomed to be being so happy and secure in my home for so many years. I am taking one of our cats with me for companionship, and trying to spend time with friends. I grabbed the bull by the horns and arranged everything in a day, and move in there tomorrow.

I'm not even sure what advice I am asking. In some ways I feel I have some answers, in others I am looking for a guiding hand. I certainly don't think snooping or hiring a PI is going to solve anything at all. If she was having an affair, it would come out one way or another. Just believe me when I tell you that I know for a fact she is not.

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It's the suddenness of her wanting to separate rather than her having a reaction of her wanting you to do something to make the marriage better that's a red flag for an affair.

You make it sound like she never made any complaints to you and so you don't even know why she lost interest in sex. Is this true?

Two things are needed for building a great marriage from this point: sound establishment that there is no affair and true willingness to address and resolve complaints, whether those complaints are about what bothers (drains love) or about needs not being met.

Are you sure that holding that stiff upper lip and not letting her know that this hurts and you really want to create a great marriage with her is what respect is made of?

Just how much are you not willing to change about yourself towards the goal of an integrated lifestyle? Gobs of time together doesn't equal an integrated lifestyle.
Did you two work on solving the behaviors that were grating?

Dr. Harley says that marriage requires change of both people in order to become more and more compatible, more and more integrated, with their life as a unit, not one or the other person's goals being supreme.

And I think a PI is just the thing you need. It's paramount to establish that there's no affair. You have to, now, because you won't be well informed enough to do the things needed to get your marriage back and on a track of thriving.




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Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
You make it sound like she never made any complaints to you and so you don't even know why she lost interest in sex. Is this true?

No, maybe I didn't articulate it well, or it got lost in my wall of text.

Sex has been an issue for some time. We'd have it regularly, and she would ask me to do things to spice things up, toys, etc, and I was always willing. She would tell me that it just wasn't as fun for her. She always had difficulty climaxing, even before she was with me. She attributed it to having a low sex drive, etc. Maybe that was to spare my feelings, maybe she genuinely didn't realize some things, it's hard to say. But now, she is telling me that she feels it's because she no longer has that romantic chemistry with me.

For that time, I think she was able to be ok with it because everything else was so great. But, in the past year or two, but mostly more in the last few months, we haven't been getting along quite as well. If I am being honest with myself, I was being at times rather dicky/rude with her, and it was not her fault, it was more me and my work situation getting to me and taking it out on her emotionally. The particular weekend that this change in her really started, and more or less the time she says she realized some things, I was being pretty bad with her, to the point where she was very upset and asking "Do you even LIKE me any more?".

Now I know it takes two, and certainly she has had her moments too of being a little hard to deal with, so I don't put all the blame at my feet.

Last night we talked, and she has made it clear that she does want to try to save the marriage.

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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
[
I'm not even sure what advice I am asking. In some ways I feel I have some answers, in others I am looking for a guiding hand. I certainly don't think snooping or hiring a PI is going to solve anything at all. If she was having an affair, it would come out one way or another. Just believe me when I tell you that I know for a fact she is not.

John, we can tell you how to solve this, but I am concerned about how open minded you are. You seem to have a very narrow, fixated view of your problem and I don't think you really understand what is happening. That is fine when you have the solution, but you don't.

The answer to your problem is to:

Move back home - moving away makes the problem worse not better. Living together did not cause the problem, so living apart will not resolve the problem. The cause of the problem is arguing. You don't have to move out to resolve that. You STOP arguing.

For some reason you believe that living apart creates a "spark." No, it does not. What creates a "spark" is meeting each others intimate emotional needs and avoiding any lovebusters. THAT creates romantic love. Dating again will not create any spark if you continue behaving as you have. Nor do you have to live apart to date. Dr Harley recommends 4 dates per week to married couples.

Quote
What I need is real answers that apply to our actual issues - which is mainly that she has lost respect for me, and that I have also fallen into a number of bad habits that facilitated that. I know the answer is not trying to change who I am, but I do need to try to change some things about me to be more like the man she fell in love with. I'm certainly not going to do some weak, desperate thing like try to change who I am. I know that would make her respect me less.

Yes, you should change how you behave. That is not a "desperate" thing to do, but the solution to marital problems. A person who won't change is called a freeloader.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


However, all of the changing in the world will be of no avail if there is an affair in the works. That has to be ruled out first. I realize you have no experience at this and don't want to believe it, but we will be wasting our time and yours if we give you answers and it turns out she is having an affair. If there is an affair, the longer it goes on, the more entrenched it becomes. The more entrenched, the harder it is to save your marriage. This has to be ruled out first.


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This is good! Do you have the books "Lovebusters", "His needs, her needs", and " five steps to romantic love"? If not, get them quickly. It appears that a combination of some Lovebusters and needs not met have eroded your marriage.

You also need to be sure of no affair by making quiet steps of verification. This is of utmost importance.

Give her hope that you won't hurt her when you're frustrated - about anything.

Find out what would help her feel romantic towards you. When did you and she feel the need to spice up sex? What was she saying at that time about your relationship? Was it like this at the beginning of your marriage?



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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
[

Last night we talked, and she has made it clear that she does want to try to save the marriage.

That is great. The first step towards this goal is to move back in together so you are spending the nights together. Being separated makes it extremely difficult to fall in love, almost impossible. Can you move back today?

Once you get back home, the first step will be to use this program to fall back in love. The way you create romantic love is to:

1. meet the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment for 20-25 hours per week. It should be done out on DATES together ideally

2. avoid all lovebusters

3. become each others favorite recreational companion

It takes 15 hours per week of undivided attention to SUSTAIN the romantic love in marriage, and 20-25 to create. If you plan out 25 hours per week of UA time, you can fall in love again.

Here is an article that gives you a solution, but the books you need are: Lovebusters, His Needs, Her Needs and Five Steps to Romantic Love. How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage


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Joined: Jul 2008
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John,

IF you W is having a hidden affair then nothing you do will fix your marriage. This is why you have to snoop to rule out this possibility. Affairs are a special category of human relationships as they are so consuming.

If your W is having an affair you can't use methods intended for rational un-addicted people.

When your W mentioned spicing things up did she mention involving other people?

God Bless
Gamma

Joined: Dec 2011
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John,
I'll repeat. Regardless of the back story, the symptoms are there that your wife is having an affair. You have investigate thoroughly and secretly, root it out, and expose.

You also cannot separate. That gives life to the affair.

But I worry that being together 24/7 is too much. Spending all of your waking hours together would definitely become grating to both of you. Maybe one of you can get a separate job. That way, when you are together it can be quality undivided attention time and things stay fresh. You need to spend 20 hours together doing things that fill both of your emotional needs (read His Needs/Her Needs for more info on this), but I would think that the value of that time together would diminish if you have spent the whole day together working.

Last edited by Justthe3ofus; 06/21/13 12:43 PM.
Joined: Oct 2009
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John, I apologize if you've already answered this: does your wife have a FaceBook account? Do you have access to it?

Last edited by maritalbliss; 06/21/13 06:34 PM.

D-Day 2-10-2009
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