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A hidden affair has definitely been ruled out. I've done the necessary research. There is nothing going on.

Moving out was as much for me as for taking the marriage breather. I needed some alone time to think things out, about myself, the marriage, and her. Mostly though, it really helps me to identify the things that I was responsible for, and that I can control. I got some really good info about some very revealing exercises to improve myself in my eyes, and hers. Honestly, looking that the lists of things that over the years she has asked me to change, do, or not do, and then listing sublists of that showing what I can do to improve/change those aspects of myself completely opened my eyes. This isn't about me taking the blame, because there are things about her that encouraged some of the behavior, and some things that she does that she will have to work on at some point for ME to be happy in this marriage too. But, I have to focus on what I can control, which is myself.

What was really interesting to me, was that these lists of bad habits/improvements that I can make, like 90% of them were things that I didn't start doing until after we were married...I got very complacent. I can clearly see where I started becoming that "roommate" instead of a husband. I know that women are wired differently than men. It seems obvious to me why her feelings changed, and what I need to do to become the man she fell in love with once again. For her, I expect she just knows how she feels, and doesn't really analyze or know why, just that she feels a certain way. I can respect that, and that I cannot force or explain any of it to her. This is all for me to improve myself, and if she sees it, and I can keep the promises to myself of improvement, then our marriage will not be the way it was, it will be much better.

I definitely had mixed emotions about moving out. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Not just leaving her, but leaving my HOME, and saying goodbye to the cat I left behind(I took one with me for company). However, she did see just how hard it was for me, and I could see in her eyes a margin of respect for me doing it.

The alone time will be fairly brief, maybe a week or two at most. After that we will start spending time on weekends together, maybe at first we will do some casual things that we are familiar with, like going to a winery, getting coffee and dinner in one of the local historical towns here. From there we talked about going out on our boat for trips, and probably I will start spending the weekends. I don't want to put romantic expectations on her right away, not until she is ready for that. I'm treating it almost like she is a woman that I am just getting to know and dating.

Once I am spending more weekends at the house, I will probably more or less move back in, and spend the weeknights there as well. I know that I need to be around her for her to see some of the things I am changing about myself. I will keep my apartment as an office and begin working from there, and coming home for dinner. No more of her feeling the need to dote on me for everything all of the time. It will be a more normal working situation. If that all works out, I will terminate the lease on this apartment, and rent an office for a much cheaper price to work out of.

All in all, I know there is so much I can improve upon. It was hard for me to write the things out, hard to admit some of it, but so much of it makes everything seem so crystal clear to me. I just hope that she will remember that man she fell in love with all those years ago.

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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
Moving out was as much for me as for taking the marriage breather. I needed some alone time to think things out, about myself, the marriage, and her. Mostly though, it really helps me to identify the things that I was responsible for, and that I can control.

But, you can think just as well at home, and it wouldn't harm your chances of recovery. You can identify the problems at home just as well. Separation is always bad for marriages unless there is abuse, ie: physical, verbal, adultery. It increases the risk that you will get divorced. "TRial separtations" for example, are only a trial for divorce, because the separation makes it much harder to ever recover the marriage.

Separation is not a recovery tactic, it is a divorce tactic.

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A hidden affair has definitely been ruled out. I've done the necessary research. There is nothing going on.

How exactly have you ruled it out?

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I definitely had mixed emotions about moving out. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Not just leaving her, but leaving my HOME, and saying goodbye to the cat I left behind(I took one with me for company). However, she did see just how hard it was for me, and I could see in her eyes a margin of respect for me doing it.

I am unclear why she would respect you for leaving your home? Just because something is "hard" does not mean it is wise or worthy of respect. I can go jump off my roof, that is very hard, but would you respect me for that? Do you believe it was a respectable action to abandon your marriage in its time of greatest need?

Do you know that many judges view what you did as abandonment and frown on this in divorce actions?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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John, having no plan is a plan to fail. I see a lot of HOPE and WISHFUL thinking on your part that will avail you absolutely nothing.

If I were in your shoes, I would move back home and hand her a real plan for recovery. [the Basic Concepts] Your plan will never bring your marriage back. It will drive you further apart, making it harder to save your marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Eric777 Offline OP
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Not having a plan? The second half of my previous post is the plan. It's not contingent, it's an outline, one that I think she is agreable to that we will discuss tomorrow.

Why do you keep hammering for details about how I researched about having an affair? This is getting a bit weird.

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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
Not having a plan? The second half of my previous post is the plan. It's not contingent, it's an outline, one that I think she is agreable to that we will discuss tomorrow.

I see your hope that she will spend more time with you, but that is not a plan to recover your marriage. Hope is not a plan. A good plan to recover your marriage would consist of:

1. living together - you can't recover a marriage if you don't sleep together every night
2. learn to meet each others emotional needs
3. create an integrated, romantic lifestyle by scheduling 20-25 hours per week of undivided attention meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs
4. implementing all of the basic concepts into your lives

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Why do you keep hammering for details about how I researched about having an affair? This is getting a bit weird.

I think it is weird that you are being so cagey about it. Most people are not very effective about spying on their spouses and as a result, are not effective in uncovering the truth. Why are you being so cagey with us? This is an anonymous forum.

Ruling out an affair is absolutely critical in the advice we give you. We would be wasting our time and yours giving you advice for one set of problems [which you seem to be ignoring anyway] when the problem is something else entirely.

WE can't help you if you insist on following you own PLAN. You don't know how to save a marriage, after all. Do you?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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John,

Welcome to MB. You don't have a plan according to MB. Most of us didn't end up here because we were excellent marriage counsel, we ended up here because we had a problem and we weren't the ones who knew how to fix it. I would suggest that you are not the best person to decide how to fix this, and that following MB advice is critical.

I've never heard of a woman who suddenly found her husband 'unattractive/unmanly' and asked him to move out. I'm sure Dr. Harley has never heard of it either. The answer to her falling out of romantic attraction is simple - start dating again. It really is that basic for us.

Now, what seems most likely, is that there is another man where she is getting the thrill from (even if it is from email/phone or whatever) and has re-written history.

The reason ML asks for how you checked as because nearly everyone who comes here with this story don't investigate properly, it is that simple. And those who do, well, they come back with unfortunate results. You said she couldn't possibly be doing anything - well, you aren't there.

Women do not respect a man who leaves the home. Women don't do that whole "cave" thing under stress. She has asked you to leave so she can speak to someone else.

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Eric777 Offline OP
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I would appreciate it if you guys would base your advice on knowing that an affair has been ruled out. You are absolutely not helping me arguing with me over this. There is no such thing as an anonymous board - she could find this board just as easily as I did. I do not want to give her any ammunition in case this thing gets ugly in the end. You don't know me or my methods, but let's just say I have them, and they are very sophisticated and explore all of the avenues. Probably more so than anyone you know or could recommend here.

I get that moving out was a mistake. Most people and professionals have told me the same. I did not "cave" and leave, it was a she or me situation, and us being around each other at the moment was making things worse, and pushing her further away. I volunteered to be the one to move because of many reasons, logistical, mostly, but also for a place for me to gather myself and think, as well as have an office that I will use. Therefore that is why I am moving back in, just not immediately, but not too long from now either. I am going to have her sign a written document that states that she does not consider this move an abandonment.

I made it clear to her that being apart is temporary, and that we cannot solve the problems being apart. I haven't talked to her today, we will probably discuss this all tomorrow. Right now she is staying with her best friend. This wasn't easy on her either, not at all. I cannot force this with her, you all don't know her, there has to be discussion and some compromise on both side, IMO. The fact that she does want to try and work on rekindling the chemistry seems like at least a start.



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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
Not having a plan? The second half of my previous post is the plan. It's not contingent, it's an outline, one that I think she is agreable to that we will discuss tomorrow.

Why do you keep hammering for details about how I researched about having an affair? This is getting a bit weird.
John, your posts stopped me here:
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Moving out was as much for me as for taking the marriage breather.
Married people don't move out and take "marriage breathers". You don't SEPARATE to figure out how to be TOGETHER.


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Why do you keep hammering for details about how I researched about having an affair? This is getting a bit weird.
John, we've seen these flags before. We want to make sure they are ruled out.

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A hidden affair has definitely been ruled out. I've done the necessary research. There is nothing going on.
Please tell us how you have ruled out an affair.

John, we have heard this a mulitude of times; the poster will tell us "OH, there's NO WAY she is in an affair! I've checked all of that, and you people are paranoid!"

And then they come back and tell us that they have found confirmation of an affair. frown


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Have you ever hit your wife?

Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
I would appreciate it if you guys would base your advice on knowing that an affair has been ruled out. You are absolutely not helping me arguing with me over this.

With all due respect, how would you know if it is helpful or not? Just because you don't want to hear it? You are asking people who are in recovered marriages for help and you are telling us what is helpful. Really, Sir? Why do you think we are all so adamant that you rule out an affair? Is it because we are all crazy? Or is because we know the signs and can see them clearly here? I would really ponder on that point if I were you.

What do you think your doctor would say if you showed up with heart pain and told him "I would appreciate it if you would base your advice on knowing that a heart attack has been ruled out." Do you think a responsible person would go along with such a plan? I see nothing helpful about such an agreement.

Your doctor obviously can't help you unless he has all the pertinent facts, and it is the same with us. We can't help you one bit if we are not certain that an affair has been ruled out. We are volunteers here. We have our own marriages and families so we would be wasting our time trying to help someone who won't give us all the facts.

Unless your name is "John Is Shattered" I fail to see how she would find you. If John is your first name, you can change your screen name. [even though there are 5,000,000 people named John in the US.]

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I made it clear to her that being apart is temporary, and that we cannot solve the problems being apart. I haven't talked to her today, we will probably discuss this all tomorrow.

I think that is great you will have this discussion, but I think you might find that she is not going to allow you come back home. And since you have willingly moved out, she may be able to keep you out, since most courts view this as abandonment.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Y'all sound like a damn cult.

Either that or an agency to sell PI services. Seriously, you don't have a clue as to the technology, or maybe you think you do. I code this [censored]. There are no e-transmissions that I can't decipher. Do you understand?

Love deposits? Are you trying to sell dvd's and PI services?

You all sound like sheisters trying to prey on people trying to actually salvage real marriages.

Give me a break here. I've found much better advice from other areas. I don't subscribe to cannned, regimented crap like "love deposits", it's not realistic. No, I'm not some expert on saving marriages, but how many of you are? I just wanted some guidance and advice, and all I feel like have gotten is people trying to seduce me into buying some kind of service. What a joke. Seriously. Of all of the places I have checked out, this one is the most absolutely useless...Buh bye

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I'm a computer programmer too and have always administered all the computers in our household. There was not a keystroke that anyone could have done on our network that I was not aware of.

You could have knocked me down with a feather when I discovered his affair via a single VoIP call made in error by him from a remote location overseas. He thought it was a landline, did not know that I could access the call logs.

He just had a secret Blackberry and would buy one for the current girlfriend. He knew to stay off the computers. So simple. Duh.

My marriage, sadly, was not able to be saved. I found this site after traditional marriage guidance counseling failed but it was not as good as it is now. What Dr Harley understands is that being in love and staying in love is a formula. That might sound weird and cultish until you start reading, then it gets suddenly very clear.


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I don't subscribe to cannned, regimented crap like "love deposits", it's not realistic.


Then why the %#@& did you SUBSCRIBE to THIS site by registering a name and posting...

Here's an idea.....get to steppin'....

mad

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Good luck to you then John, you will need it. You're not living with your wife and she says she doesn't love you, so I have no idea why you think you are better at saving a marriage then someone (Dr. Harley) who has saved many (including the posters here). You are making several strategic mistakes. When the truth comes out, please feel free to come back and we will be here to help you, although by then it might be too late.

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BTW John when I first came here, I didn't like what people had to say either. Turns out I heard what I needed to hear, and it helped greatly. Humans naturally want to avoid the hardest work. If you can overcome that, you will benefit from it.

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The main reason why people want to know how you know with certainty that there is no affair is because there may be some holes in your system plus the way you describe your wife's behavior. We are not saying she is having an affair, just that it has to be ruled out. There is a logical reason for this - if she has her heart set on someone else, her heart won't bet set on you and your marriage, especially if you're not living together.

Using terms like "love units" is a way to get a handle on what it takes to have a great marriage.

Hey, it's okay if you think all of this stuff is crap, but we're here to tell you that if you continue with the path you are on, it won't get you the results you think and hope it will.

I don't think it's crap. I think it's true that how you treat someone in most cases is a major determinate of how they feel about you. You treat them with care, respect, a listening ear, a concern for helping with their every day burdens (especially the ones you put on them), and tell them that they're worth your love and showing it, they will find you irresistible. If you dismiss their feelings, thoughts, perspectives, and turn a deaf ear to them, they will find you the opposite of irresistible.

The one place these ideas are most important to incorporate is in marriage. It takes about 20 hours a week providing this care to get to the irresistible stage. It takes 15 hours a week to maintain it. All the while, not making demands, not being disrespectful, not getting angry, and not making decisions regardless of any protests.

Have you been this way with your wife? Her perspectives are wrong? Her thoughts and feelings can be dismissed if they don't make sense to you? You know the best way to go?



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You all sound like sheisters trying to prey on people trying to actually salvage real marriages.
Shysters. I believe 'shysters' is the word you're looking for. laugh

I wish I had a nickel for every spouse who melted down like this, and then came back a few months later and said "You guys were right." I hope for the best for you, John, so I hope that isn't the case. But if it is, we'll be here. And we won't even say 'we told you so.' smile


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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
Give me a break here. I've found much better advice from other areas. I don't subscribe to cannned, regimented crap like "love deposits", it's not realistic.

That "crap" works! laugh

I fear you are in for a very rude awakening, my friend. What you are going to find is that your wife is having an affair and that she won't allow you to move back home as you imagine. When that happens, come back and we will help you with you next steps. We will be here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Eric777 Offline OP
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Guys, one thing your are right about, is that this cannot work by us living apart. I am moving back in tonight. Thanks, I'll keep you posted.

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Originally Posted by JohnIsShattered
Guys, one thing your are right about, is that this cannot work by us living apart. I am moving back in tonight. Thanks, I'll keep you posted.

hurray Good man!!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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