The question of 'why' they did not follow the program. What are the extenuating circumstances that lead the couples astray? I am , Kiss is not

Memory Management challenges? Yes
The level of hurt of the betrayal to extreme to mentally overcome? yes, sometimes

I think the problem is getting BOTH partners to work the program. When one is and the other is not, it is possible for resentment to build up and withdrawal to happen.Thus making the BS, unable and unwilling to "drive the bus"

I think that's the million dollar question - why was the MB program not followed? I don't know if it is precisely the same question as "Why do some choose to recover their M after adultery and others do not?"

I can make guesses in my own case, but that's the best I can do since I can't know what was/is in broken's mind and heart. I can speak for what I see as my own failures at recovery in general and MB specifically.

I do believe MB can work, and I think it would have worked well to repair mine & broken's M before I committed adultery. Then, the "When to Call it Quits" scenario would have worked. Once I slept with another man, and on top of that lied about it so well and for so long, I had no chance.

Now, those are what I believe were the most apparent variables affecting our chance at recovery. However, there are undoubtedly other factors at play there, because there are similar cases on the board where R appears to have occurred.

Speaking to my own sitch, my guesses would be that variables other than 1.) my adultery being physical and 2.) the four months of trickle truth, such as:

- Finding MB too late (nearly a year after the A ended)
- Both of us having experiences with bouts of untreated depression over our lifetimes
- broken struggling with managing memories/dealing with triggers
- Our marital history of a pattern of conflict avoidance
- broken's very unhappy childhood with parents who both had A's yet remained in an unhappy M until he and his sister were grown and out of the house
- External stressors to include both of us losing our fathers and broken losing his job

Those, at least, are facts that I can point to. I have a lot of trouble trying to understand why nothing I did worked and understanding why, for so long, he did things that hurt me when it would have been far kinder, if he'd ever loved me, just to walk away. Maybe as a FWW I shouldn't say things like that, bc I know some would say I deserved it...a part of me thought so too, for the longest time. Sometimes I still feel like that, though not as often as I used to.

IDK. broken posted here for a short time, but why did he never "buy in"? I had two sessions with JC, talked to Dr. H and Joyce on the radio twice, and followed their advice but it didn't work. broken never "bought in." I certainly realize my application of MB was not perfect and maybe that was it - that I just didn't "do" MB well enough.

In the end, it really doesn't make much difference. Our M ended bc I committed adultery, period. For us, I don't believe anything short of time travel or memory erasement a la "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" variety would have worked.

"He can get off the pot and ask for it (if he truly needs it) or forever hold his peace (and shut up about it)."

Mr Wondering, I don't need it and as far as shutting up about it; I was addressing steps for new people and to get it out of the way right off the bat. I was not trying to irritate. If that satisfies you; then you too can now shut up about it...

BTW, the offer was more to prove NG wrong than it was to help me with any "lingering doubts" and for what it's worth I believe her too...

I've addressed what chafes me the most already and to reiterate ; I'm willing to take the poly as well...

I was contradicting TheRoad's post about the 6 month limit being a trick or something. I just found it ridiculous that the 6 month window aspect of the offer what somehow a problem. I thought it was wise and tried to explain why. The "shut up or get off the pot" was intended to be a figurative "you" (as in, any divorced BS that is offered a time period within which to take an action like this or not) and not you, specifically. Sorry to bring you into it.

Godspeed,

Mr. W <----shutting up

As a BH whose WW never returned home, I have a far different view.

It was an exit affair. Perhaps out of opportunity. I may never know as after that day almost 10 years ago, I have yet to get a straight answer out of her. Just more of the "we should have never married."

But maybe she's right. Maybe we never should have married. But not necessarily for the reasons she stated. There were red flags all over the place.

It wasn't like I was suckered by sex. We didn't even have sex together before we married.

I'm simply looking for balance. So often in popular culture, we see a BH and blame him for his WW's choice to have an affair.

We see a BW and we blame the WH for his choice to have the affair.

Heck, even our pastor displayed this pattern by asking what I did to force my WW to have her affair.

Really?

My concern is what will become of our society if we continue this double standard. Where women are justified in choosing to have affairs, while men are castigated for the same behavior.

Finally, the key element in restoring the marriage is for the affair to end. If the WW refuses to end her affair, it really doesn't matter how good the BH is.

That's why I'm so against the double standard. You have the popular culture saying "You go girl" to the WW, while saying to the emotionally devastated BH, what did you do to her to cause her to have an affair.

Frankly, I'm shocked when any WW ends her affair, given the native support network for WW's that exists in our society.

"The "shut up or get off the pot" was intended to be a figurative "you" (as in, any divorced BS that is offered a time period within which to take an action like this or not) and not you, specifically. Sorry to bring you into it."

Gotcha, sometimes I can be (obviously) obtuse...You're a gentleman, I accept your apology and extend mine as well for being defensive.

For those who complete my program of marital recovery, 100% find the experience to be more than helpful -- it solves their marital problems.

Well, yes.....

The following statement is also unassailable.

For those who make it to shore alive following a ship-sinking, 100% find they did not drown on the way.

But much more valuable would have been the second part of Dr. Harley's advice:

But just like in dieting, the successful outcome depends entirely on motivation. Only those who are not motivated enough to complete the program fail.

Almost perfect - and I will attempt to make it so by adding the word "couples" between "those" and "who" !

An infinitely-motivated BS cannot repair a marriage alone. The WS must be willing to participate at some level. The BS might for a short period pump ENs toward a recalcitrant WS (as with Markos and Prisca), but for the process to take hold, eventually both spouses seemingly need to participate (as with Prisca's late enlistment).

My position remains that this third leg of the JC stool (MB Plan Involvement) must be granted equal emphasis in the period when NC and EPs are introduced as necessary by the BS. The reality of the application here is that MBPI is rarely stressed as it should be.

Evidence? Well I cannot think of a better example than the writings on this site. Search for "Just Compensation" and the primary reference is to the "Can't We Just Forgive and Forget" article here. The key segment follows:

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending
spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's
probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his
or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should
be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for
all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means
leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The
reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion,
he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with
this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already
caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact
with his ex-lover would keep you suffering. In your case, the
affair is probably over, but has your husband taken precautions
to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to
guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he
considered the circumstances that led to his affair?
Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close
friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational
relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be
subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable?
Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to
avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the
suffering he's caused you to bear.

And? And.......?

THAT'S IT! MBPI is NEVER mentioned. If it is given as short-shift in this article as it is, no wonder we correspondents, and the newly-arrived BSs pay it little heed.

Now why do you suppose it is, that MBPI is downplayed? Almost sarcastically, one reason might be that it doesn't lend itself to a snappy epigram. JC. NC, EP all roll easily and quickly off the fingers. MBPI sounds like a stock-market indicator of financial activity.

I think the real difficulty is the fact that insisting on MBPI puts the (sober) BS in direct controlling position of the (still drunk) WS's actions, and the modern gutless population on the whole shrinks from taking such enormous responsibility.

Too bad! Those of us that refused to return the keys, telling the drunks that WE would decide when they were sober enough to drive, have seemingly had more predictable success than the population as a whole.

NG,

What about emailing Dr. H?

I view it that participation, or buy-in, should happen or else it isn't a mutually fulfilling marriage, but the real question is does one try to win over by good example or do they demand it or else? For you, it seems that the demand approach worked without serious repercussions to you or your marriage, but the way I understand Dr. Harley, most of the times he's seen this create more distance between partners, not reconciliation. I haven't heard him advocate demanding anything except for the other spouse to end their affair, and even then, if the situation seems to have hope through a Plan A, he often suggests that first, followed by a Plan B if necessary.

There can be personal interpretation as to what a 'demand' is.

For example does saying "For me to stay in this M and consider R, we must have an honest M" or "I will only consider R with you if we agree to use a plan for R (such as MB)"


Are those demands?

I think the difference comes when you try to leverage a position to get your spouse to do something you want them to do unenthusiastically.

For me, any breach of EP's by my FWW will result in D. Is that a demand? Ultimatum? or is it a boundary that I have set?

I am absolutely committed to R. We have a deal to play by the same rules. If she breaks an EP that would have been a CHOICE.

But in the end, I don't really care if it is a demand or a boundary because at the end of the day that is the way it is. Period. The line in the sand has been drawn.

Uhhhhhh, Brainy, trust me when I tell you that the good Doctor has been aware of my posts - or at least a selection of my more....ill-advised incendiary unfortunate....offerings.

Tomorrow (Sunday?) I will present a tedious monograph on the elements of "motivation". I suggest a turbo-shot of espresso before reading!