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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
I don't understand the suggestion that saying "I forgive" somehow automatically erases an emotional reaction. That simply is not true.


Totally agree. Saying 'I forgive' to some might somehow erase the past to a degree but in the case of an A...most likely not as it shouldn't.

Personally the topic of forgiveness of my FWW really doesn't enter my mind much since I know it will never occur. Not a factor in our R.

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
When you are happy in the present the mind doesn't tend to go to the past.


Here is the difficult part as my mind does go to the past sometimes. When the person you love the most has proven they have the ability to harm you in the most extreme way, flashbacks and projecting potential similar events in the future go hand in hand.

For me the 2 hard parts about the past are: 1) reliving those moments in my mind 2) worries that she will at some point in time hurt me again.

Our present is very good. However, this does not void my fears that she will at somepoint reneg our new M committments to each other by breaking EP's.

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"Our present is very good. However, this does not void my fears that she will at somepoint reneg our new M committments to each other by breaking EP's."

You are still fairly new to recovery so what you describe is pretty normal. The wound is still pretty fresh. In 5 years, I predict you won't feel the same way as long as you stick to these new habits.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: FightTheFight
Let me just quote a couple of things I've read from Dr. Harley


Quote:
But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.


From here: Can't we just forgive and forget?



It needs to be understood that "forgiveness" is not a replacement for just compensation. I should write Dr Harley about the seeming contradiction in those 2 statements because he says over and over he does not believe forgiveness is appropriate when it comes to adultery.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
"Our present is very good. However, this does not void my fears that she will at somepoint reneg our new M committments to each other by breaking EP's."

You are still fairly new to recovery so what you describe is pretty normal. The wound is still pretty fresh. In 5 years, I predict you won't feel the same way as long as you stick to these new habits.


That is what we are both hopeful for!

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Originally Posted By: 20YearHistory
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
"Our present is very good. However, this does not void my fears that she will at somepoint reneg our new M committments to each other by breaking EP's."

You are still fairly new to recovery so what you describe is pretty normal. The wound is still pretty fresh. In 5 years, I predict you won't feel the same way as long as you stick to these new habits.


That is what we are both hopeful for!



I am honestly amazed and I think you will be too!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML-

Thanks.

Mss


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: FightTheFight
Let me just quote a couple of things I've read from Dr. Harley


Quote:
But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.


From here: Can't we just forgive and forget?



It needs to be understood that "forgiveness" is not a replacement for just compensation. I should write Dr Harley about the seeming contradiction in those 2 statements because he says over and over he does not believe forgiveness is appropriate when it comes to adultery.


He doesn't say forgiveness is a replacement for just compensation. But I do think he makes a good point that "there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity".

Doesn't mean you have to be resentful about it. As you have pointed out, there are two ways to avoid such resentment:

1. Accepting just compensation and working together to create a happy "now"
2. Plan B, which is also focused on creating a happy "now", but does so in the absence of the offender.

I for one was very relieved to read that I did not have to forgive in order to move on and recover.


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Originally Posted By: FightTheFight
[
Doesn't mean you have to be resentful about it. As you have pointed out, there are two ways to avoid such resentment:

1. Accepting just compensation and working together to create a happy "now"


But it is not a matter of accepting just compensation. That does absolutely nothing to relieve resentment. Resentment is a not a choice in cafeteria; resentment is an emotional reaction. It just IS. So when JC is used appropriately to create a romantic, happy marriage, resentment FADES.

I have no resentment whatsoever today. Did I choose that? Hell no. If you go back and read my posts 8-10 years ago you will see LOTS of resentment. I referred to my husband as that "low man." It was not my choice, it was my emotional reaction. No one CHOOSES their emotional reactions.

Look at 20yearhistory for example. He has chosen to accept just compensation. Does he still have resentment? Yes he does! But that is only because he is still in the process of creating a passionate marriage and the sting of the affair is fairly recent. But he won't feel resentment in 5 years. He is a smart, committed guy who will continue on the path towards recovery, so the only reason he still has resentment is because a) the sting is still recent and b) his wife is still earning his trust, which takes time.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: FightTheFight

I for one was very relieved to read that I did not have to forgive in order to move on and recover.


Same here!! Dr Harley's views on this make perfect sense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I took this bit Dr. Harley says about forgiveness is that if just compensation has been made and a happy present is made, that this resentment could still be held onto by being kept alive by the BS, and that there may come a time where they need to make the choice to stop feeding or nursing this resentment. Essentially, to stop dwelling on this terrible pain of the past.


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MSS, I hope you can find the formula that some of us have that permits you to climb down off the damn parapet and revel in the life that's there for you to enjoy.

I think it was PB that once said something to the effect that she has stopped "wasting time and energy waiting for a better yesterday." Were I able to modify that, it would be to add "....and devote those resources to formulating a grander tomorrow.

You should heed the advice of the folks here, and stop listening to that [censored] Mike.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
I think it was PB that once said something to the effect that she has stopped "wasting time and energy waiting for a better yesterday." Were I able to modify that, it would be to add "....and devote those resources to formulating a grander tomorrow.
That is a much more elegant way to put it than "stay in the present". Unfortunately, I have about as much free memory as a 1970's calculator. I'm not sure I can retain more than four words.


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...as much free memory as a 1970's calculator.
Dude, I started college using a slide-rule! rotflmao

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Originally Posted By: mrEureka
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
I think it was PB that once said something to the effect that she has stopped "wasting time and energy waiting for a better yesterday." Were I able to modify that, it would be to add "....and devote those resources to formulating a grander tomorrow.
That is a much more elegant way to put it than "stay in the present". Unfortunately, I have about as much free memory as a 1970's calculator. I'm not sure I can retain more than four words.



"My good friend Timon always says, you have to put your behind in the past" - Pumba - Disney's The Lion King


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Interesting debate over on another thread in this forum. A bit heady for this city college educated dolt.

My wife was uber sorry the moment of dday. We found mb and we both read books. She's met every "demand" I've ever presented...enthusiastically.

Are we recovered? I'm in a gray area of MY OWN creation. My willingness to participate as NGs 'third leg of my wife's JC stool' is at a low level. She'd is already supporting her share, I'm not. She's given 'til it hurts.

My resentment level is insurmountable for recovery.

Is it specific to a LTA? It is in my case.

I tried the mb buy in. But it requires a neutering of emotions I have been unsuccessful in achieving.

If I got 5 seconds of anything less than my wife's 150% buy-in AT ANY TIME, I'd be on match.com just like NG.

Not even sure if this relates to that debate, to be honest.


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Not every story ends with reconciliation of the marriage. Overcoming YEARS of betrayal, including having the OM over for Sunday dinner with the kids on a regular basis is pretty difficult and perhaps impossible for 99%.

Maybe you didn't do it all perfectly but from what I've seen you gave it a LOT of time and energy. Divorce is always an option in these situations. Not every marriage should and can be recovered.

I don't see your divorce as a personal failing. Melody Lane herself has said that she wouldn't be able to do Plan A. It's just not in her.

You fought valiantly Mike. Know this.

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It sounds like you still don't really want to divorce. Why don't you write the radio show and chat with Dr. Harley?

Has the focus been so much on her compensation to you that you haven't been reciprocating as much and lack of intimate emotional connection is leaving you a bit down? Has your love bank been open for all EN meeting she has done to actually work, or has it really been closed most of the time?


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Mike, I hope for healing for you. It is your choice whether to pursue that with your wife or without. Completely your choice. But I hope for you to soon be able to achieve a happy present.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
Interesting debate over on another thread in this forum. A bit heady for this city college educated dolt.

My wife was uber sorry the moment of dday. We found mb and we both read books. She's met every "demand" I've ever presented...enthusiastically.

Are we recovered? I'm in a gray area of MY OWN creation. My willingness to participate as NGs 'third leg of my wife's JC stool' is at a low level. She'd is already supporting her share, I'm not. She's given 'til it hurts.

My resentment level is insurmountable for recovery.

Is it specific to a LTA? It is in my case.

I tried the mb buy in. But it requires a neutering of emotions I have been unsuccessful in achieving.

If I got 5 seconds of anything less than my wife's 150% buy-in AT ANY TIME, I'd be on match.com just like NG.

Not even sure if this relates to that debate, to be honest.



I'm not quite sure what you are looking for, Mike.

But, one has to remember a few things;

The more there is to resent, the longer it will take for it to fade.

The better your memory is, the longer it will take for resentment to fade.

These are known factors. It was part of an oft-misquoted idea for recovery at one time that recovery might take 2-5 years.

However, there is something else that precedes that; if your marriage is not better after 2 years of recovery, you will be better off to divorce.

The thing is, you have to LOOK, READ, and COMPREHEND that statement - it doesn't say "if you aren't completely recovered," it doesn't say "if you aren't free from resentment." It says "if your marriage isn't better than it has ever been."


More or less, if you have learned to follow PoUA, PoRH, and PoJA and have become each other's favorite recreational companions. If you have formed good marital habits. If you are starting to build positive LB$ balances.


You can never set a timeline on overcoming trauma from painful events - you CAN be proactive in doing what it takes to recover though.


In the end, Mike, you have to make the decision that is right for YOU. And you are right, you are in a gray area of your own creation, you cut corners on some of the most radical steps. But, so have many, many people here. (Who has two thumbs, and still lives in the same city as the day the music died? This guy right here.) There are consequences for resisting steps.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Got a call from omw the other day. She threw him out for 4 months. He's back but she's done with the marriage. Closing some financial loose ends and will be filing. Got lots of feel good stuff for me like he went thru his inheritance and spends a lot time crying and begging her stay.

Told her I have issues with her year 1 anniversary manifesto that ripped me apart. She said she read it again recently and stands by her 'truth'. Like I said to her then I told her to ' have a nice life'.

I did tell her some lies including that my marriage is peachy and I've never been happier. Wishful thinking. Thought I'd give a little dig as payback for her beat down of me.

Trouble being the bigger person sometimes .


Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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