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Originally Posted by RNR2013
Hey guys just in update. My wife has decided that she no longer wants to move, she doesn't want to leave now which is fair as this is where her family is. I myself will be leaving as its to painful for me to remain here any longer. She has not followed through on anything she promise to do, she starts to but then she falls short on completion. We went out and bought tickets last night and today she said she was not going and got a refund for her ticket and our daughters, mine still remains (I think). I'd better calm the air line to be sure. I don't need any surprises. So, in two weeks I leave this place alone to make a new life for myself. I'll continue to post and hopefully I can help someone else in my position with what I have learned from my experiences.

I don't believe you.
I suspect, as well, that you two have been fighting yet again. It has happened over and over all over both of your threads. Both of you are emotional people, and in a tense situation you go from 0 to 60 in a split second, throwing out threats and ultimatums and "I quits." Then you come back later claiming everything is okay.
What's different this time?
Why not try it without the fighting?


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She has not followed through on anything she promise to do, she starts to but then she falls short on completion.
When are you going to follow through on that Anger Management course?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
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She has not followed through on anything she promise to do, she starts to but then she falls short on completion.
When are you going to follow through on that Anger Management course?
Prisca has got you, there. You are *both* failing to follow through on things.


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The radio show that is being rebroadcast today (Monday, before Monday's live show goes out) is all about neogiation. I think there is a crying need for you both to listen to that show, and also to buy the book He Wins She Wins.

Rather than negotiate with your wife about what to do about the very traumatic issue of her leaving her son (with special needs) behind for good, you are being a dictator and an anarchist. You are telling her to do as you want and leave her son, and having failed in that strategy you are being the anarchist and leaving her - and your daughter, it seems - for good. Are you really happy with that solution?

You need to discuss and negotiate about this issue for the good of the marriage. You cannot expect the marriage to survive if you insist on her being unhappy for years to come about being made to sacrifice her son. Neither can she expect the marriage to survive if you stay living where you live, in a place that causes you much unhappiness.

She is not insisting that you stay in your present area, but you are insisting that she leave her son behind if he will not go with you.

And since you haven't come back to post, it does seem as if you made your initial "I'm leaving" post on this subject just to get at your wife. It's another angry outburst.


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Repost:

Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by RNR2013
Today everything is gone all to hell again.

When it goes to hell like this, it is important not to get so wrapped up in the content of what she is saying. As you stated, both you and she were having angry outbursts last night. When you guys are angry, you are temporarily insane. The things you are saying are irrational. So it does not make any sense to address them.

In this case - what she is saying is crazy and needs to be ignored and you guys need to get to working the Marriage Builders plan of recovery. A job is nowhere near as important as your marriage. In time the two of you can find ways to replace some or all of your lost income, if you work the plan and repair your marriage.

Do you see how the fights alternate with calm, optimistic times? The number one secret is to learn to stop the fights. Don't respond, don't engage when she comes at you with crazy talk like this.

Here's Dr. Harley's words on how to stop these fights, from your side alone:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Once an abusive reaction is made, unless a couple does something to stop it, the "process" of abuse begins.ᅠ The first benign form of abuse triggers a more hurtful response by the other spouse.ᅠ That, in turn, leads to an even more negative reaction.ᅠ As the reactions of each spouse move further and further up the abuse continuum, eventually a response is triggered that we would all agree is abuse.ᅠ But by then it's too late.ᅠ Both spouses are in the thick of battle and fighting to the death.

That's why I have chosen to call each hurtful event in the escalating sequence, "abuse."ᅠ It seems to work for those couples who struggle with the problem.ᅠ If they see abuse as a process that begins with more benign forms of disrespect and demands, they can learn to cut it off before it becomes painfully destructive.ᅠ When one spouse decides not to react to abuse with abuse, the process usually comes to an end.ᅠ But the best outcome is for both spouses to see it coming and both agree to stop the process.ᅠ Such a couple has learned to valuable lesson of avoiding fights and arguments.ᅠ In the place of those ineffective problem-solving strategies, they can learn to solve problems in a way that increases their love for each other -- instead of ruining their love for each other.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067d_qa.html

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
But even though she made an abusive remark, you can end the cycle of abuse before it begins if you don't accelerate negativity (that means, matching her abuse with abuse of your own). What you should do is ignore the abuse on her side, and in your own mind re-translate what she said to be "I would prefer it if you would dry the dishes this way, instead of the way you are drying them."

However, if you are offended by the comment she made, and most people are offended by abuse, then you will be very tempted to come back with, "fine, dry them yourself next time." That is abusive because it's a demand (you are telling her what to do). Or you might be tempted to say, "you don't dry them any better that I do." That's abusive because it's disrespectful (you are judging her dish washing behavior). Or you might be tempted to let her have it with, "What a stupid thing to say -- you sure are full of stupid comments today." That's an angry outburst because what you say is intended to punish her for the comment she made to you. As soon as you respond to your wife's abusive comment with an abusive comment of your own, you have created a cycle of abuse where you are both abusing each other.

Your wife might then respond to your abuse with more abuse. It may be a selfish demand, it may be a disrespectful judgment, or it may be an angry outburst. That will escalate negativity even more. Then you respond with more abuse, she responds again, and on and on. Every argument is abusive, and whenever you argue or fight, think to yourself, "we are being abusive to each other. I must somehow stop this cycle of abuse."

When you argue, it will be easy to see how the other person is being abusive, but it's very difficult to see how you are being abusive. However, if you actually argue with your wife, you are being just as abusive as she. You may not be able to stop your wife's abusive behavior, because only she can do that, but you can stop your abusive behavior, and that will end all of your arguments and fights. It doesn't mean you will stop talking to each other, it simply means you will not respond to her abuse with your own abuse.

Quite frankly, if only one of you avoids abuse -- you, for example -- it will make it much easier for the other to avoid it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.html


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Should I ask my wife to forgive me for her affair? Should I offer up some sort of a reward to her for it? I am begging to think that this is what you want me to do. Yeah right, that will not happen! I have nothing to prove, how about we take that route here instead of me being painted as the person who put me in this place? I could not be on the show because I had to work and I would not have gone on anyway as I said I wanted to get settled first before I go back on. I will see how I feel at that point, I told people this by once again they did not care for how I felt or what I am ready for. I never made these choices that put us here but I am the one who is supposed to fix them? I am willing to help fix it but that's it and it may not work even then, I will be the one to decide if it is fixed or not fixed. People need to get of this holier than thou attitude against me and understand that I never left, I was the one who stayed therefore I have already proven willingness to stay in this marriage, so my only job now is for me to allow her to show me this is not all smoke and mirrors and to help build the marriage again.

Last edited by RNR2013; 08/25/13 02:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by RNR2013
Should I ask my wife to forgive me for her affair? ....................... I am willing to help fix it but that's it and it may not work even then,



No.

Yes there are no guarantees that recovery works for any one.

Though the odds for success are lowered when one picks and chooses to use parts of MB instead of the whole program.

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Don't get me wrong, I am committed to recovery, my staying is proof of this. I am also committed to MB principles but when my intentions are doubted that poses a problem for me. I want nothing more in this world than to save this marriage and make it great but I'm exhausted. I am not seeing anything tangible yet, I will say I do find myself seeming to be more trusting in my wife over the last few weeks. As for the anger management courses I don't know what to tell you other than there must be a lot of angry people in Alberta because every place I call is booked right into three months from now. I looked at some online courses but there are no more credit cards and I would prefer to be in a class setting when doing something like that.

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Originally Posted by RNR2013
Don't get me wrong, I am committed to recovery, my staying is proof of this. I am also committed to MB principles but when my intentions are doubted that poses a problem for me. I want nothing more in this world than to save this marriage and make it great but I'm exhausted. I am not seeing anything tangible yet, I will say I do find myself seeming to be more trusting in my wife over the last few weeks. As for the anger management courses I don't know what to tell you other than there must be a lot of angry people in Alberta because every place I call is booked right into three months from now. I looked at some online courses but there are no more credit cards and I would prefer to be in a class setting when doing something like that.
Recovery is tough.

I'm sorry but it takes more than "staying" to be committed. You must clean up your side of the street.

Your anger must be dealt with. I know you're trying to get into Anger Management, but what are you doing in the mean time?


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I've said to my wife many times that we tell him he's coming, he refuses to leave his grandparents home. We live a few blocks away and he would not even come live with us there. He will never leave that house no matter what we say or how much I've tried to bribe him with toys and things and I have. Fact is he won't leave his grandparents.

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Originally Posted by RNR2013
so my only job now is for me to allow her to show me this is not all smoke and mirrors and to help build the marriage again.

Not really. I used to think that too. R is a two-way street and will only be successful if you both stop hurting the other and start depositing more LB units.

What are her Actions saying to you?

A WS that is Willing to do their part to R a M can't be mistaken for anything else on the planet. You will know. No question about it. My concern from the beginning (to the chagrin of others here) has been that she hasn't been serious.

I know how instinctive it is to be Angry after being betrayed in the most egregious of ways. I too have had to learn how to deal with it. If I can do it...You can too. You can only control your choices each and every day. By becoming the best RNR in the world, you can sit back and either let her HEAL this thing with you or..hang herself. Let that fall on her..not you.


Either way this thing shakes out I hope you don't have regrets down the road on the decisions you are making today. Somehow you must learn to stop the AO's. So does she. At the same time, she has to get her butt in gear on IMPLIMENTING the MB program.

Once my FWW starting actually being pro-active with actual Actions...man did it help us.







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Originally Posted by RNR2013
I want nothing more in this world than to save this marriage and make it great but I'm exhausted. I am not seeing anything tangible yet, I will say I do find myself seeming to be more trusting in my wife over the last few weeks

Why do you say that? This is what worries me.

R is an exhausting process friend. Even if she were to kick your butt with MB Actions starting today on her own..you are going to be exhausted. 2-5 years is a long time.

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
Originally Posted by RNR2013
I want nothing more in this world than to save this marriage and make it great but I'm exhausted. I am not seeing anything tangible yet, I will say I do find myself seeming to be more trusting in my wife over the last few weeks

Why do you say that? This is what worries me.

R is an exhausting process friend. Even if she were to kick your butt with MB Actions starting today on her own..you are going to be exhausted. 2-5 years is a long time.
20year, what are you talking about? Mrs cen was on the radio program on Friday. They are planning a move across the continent. What sort of evidence do you need to show that she is serious?


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Originally Posted by mrEureka
20year, what are you talking about? Mrs cen was on the radio program on Friday. They are planning a move across the continent. What sort of evidence do you need to show that she is serious?


I was quoting what RNR had said. In his eyes, HE isn't seeing it.

Agreeing to move is a positive action, indeed. However, I am asking him to clarify why he isn't seeing Action by her (beyond moving). Agreeing to move without implementing the rest of the program ain't gonna get it.




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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
Originally Posted by mrEureka
20year, what are you talking about? Mrs cen was on the radio program on Friday. They are planning a move across the continent. What sort of evidence do you need to show that she is serious?


I was quoting what RNR had said. In his eyes, HE isn't seeing it.

Agreeing to move is a positive action, indeed. However, I am asking him to clarify why he isn't seeing Action by her (beyond moving). Agreeing to move without implementing the rest of the program ain't gonna get it.
Please listen to the radio program. Dr. H spoke directly to this issue.

There are many good reasons not to fuel the conflict here. What RNR actually sees is not apparent to us, because we are in no position to perceive. What we have been told has changed frequently, usually in response to ongoing fights. There is little factual basis to support a judgement that the program isn't, in fact, being followed, or at least attempted, by both parties. The main issue here is fighting and anger. That is what needs to be corrected.


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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
I was quoting what RNR had said. In his eyes, HE isn't seeing it.

Agreeing to move is a positive action, indeed. However, I am asking him to clarify why he isn't seeing Action by her (beyond moving). Agreeing to move without implementing the rest of the program ain't gonna get it.
She was the original one who came here to post, 20. She came here to seek help for her marriage. She has initiated being on the radio show twice, most recently last Friday. RNR says that he would not have been on the show even if he could have got time off work because he "did not want to be on it at this time" (which is frankly bizarre, if he wants to have a happier marriage). mrs_cen went on the show to try and move things forward. She has sought Dr H's help on her own because they are stuck, or sometimes seem to make progress only to go backwards with a fight.

She suggested the move, thousands of miles away from where they are now and from her family support. Even though her son refuses to go she is going through with this for their marriage. (What RNR was talking about when he said she had got a refund on the plane tickets is a mystery that he has not explained, despite my asking.) Even if she could drag her son with them he would not easily get the social services support that he needs for his condition, support that he is getting where they live now. It must be very hard for her to leave her son and she worries that he will resent her years down the line, but she is going through with this.

Moving is a BIG part of implementing the programme. It will provide a major part of what the marriage needs to rid itself of the triggers of the affair. If these triggers are contributing to RNR's anger, and her angry responses to his anger, then ridding themselves of the environmental triggers is the single most important thing they can do today - and it was mrs_cen who suggested that and is going through with that, leaving her son.

Don't fan the flames of separation for them, 20, by encouraging RNR in his belief that she isn't doing anything. **EDIT**

Dr Harley gave advice on the programme on Friday, and mrs_cen, who sought his help, is going to take it. **EDIT**

Last edited by PhoenixMB; 08/27/13 01:50 PM. Reason: TOS - provocative

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Don't fan the flames of separation for them, 20, by encouraging RNR in his belief that she isn't doing anything. **EDIT**

Dr Harley gave advice on the programme on Friday, and mrs_cen, who sought his help, is going to take it. **EDIT**

Sugarcane, your assumptions about me could not be further from the truth. **EDIT**


**EDIT** I have asked him to clarify what he is seeing and isn't seeing from her to gain a better perspective on the challenges he is having.

**EDIT**











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Enough of this debate. Please help this poster with Marriage Builders advice or refrain from posting!

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Well, I understand you have things you would like to see her do RNR but remember what you need to do as well and follow through. It's a positive sign she was on the program, I understand you couldn't make it. Did you hear the show? You should post your thoughts here about it whenever BH posts it.

However, I still believe you are waffling on the anger managment issue. I suggested earlier in your thread that you both should attend together. I'm not sure if you are reading or read Lovebusters. If you haven't thats a good place to start. It has helped me tremendously. If you are like me (I assume you are) you didn't have an anger problem in the past but the affair has cause a understandable fury towards your wife. As a husband one of your responsibilites is to protect her from harm and keep her safe. Actively controlling YOUR anger and not her's goes a long way. Remember you can only control RNR not your wife. Control leads to resentment and withdrawal and is very abusive.

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RNR - Please listen to the third segment of today's radio program. Dr. Harley had a number of general comments about the rights of BSs and JC that you really should hear.


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DS - 32, still living with us
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