NOMO, these are all issues that are resolved by using this program. Your "therapist" has no idea how to solve this problem, whereas, Dr Harley does. Valuable time is being wasted here that could be devoted to creating a romantic, passionate marriage. We know why you don't want to have sex with him: you are not in love. But this program can teach him how to meet your needs in a way that creates that desire. This is not a difficult problem to overcome. It is not something you ever needed to separate over.

Your husband was placed in a very difficult position when you refused to meet his needs. That was not fair to him.

MelodyLane,

Thanks for your post. My dh has a history of leaving or removing himself when the going gets tough. It is a pattern of behavior for him. I have always let him come back home too early, always forgiving, going overboard to meet his needs. This time, I am trying to ensure that he understands he cannot just check out of the marriage when things are tough.

For once in our marriage, after our daughter died, I thought about myself and how I would cope with her death. It is the most traumatic event a person can go through, I miss her every minute of every day, asking why was she taken from us. I went back to work three weeks after she died, I had no energy for anything except going to work and get through each day. I do not think you understand the devastation of the death of a child unless you too have lost a child. I am literally in the worst emotional pain of my life, feeling like I have a knife sticking out of my chest.

I need for him to prove to me that he can be supportive, loving, faithful, dependable. I need for him to fill my love bank, it has been badly depleted these 13 years. He is doing wonderfully well in that department right now. I think he genuinely thinks he may lose me, and he may still. I stayed in this marriage post affair, making changes, trying to meet his ENs. He felt entitled, the nicer I was the more he failed to meet my needs. He treated me as if I had the affair, all these years.

So, I understand very well what you are saying. If he has another affair during this separation, then, that is what he is going to do. I have learned that I cannot control what he does, only my reaction.

Nomo

MelodyLane has lost a son, NoMo. I'd listen to her if I were you.

Here is Dr. Harley's article on how to fix this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html

NOMO, the problem with your marriage all along is that you have never used this program and created and a romantic marriage. And now the situation is made worse by this separation. Your husband gin truly expects that his needs will be met in your marriage the same as you expect that your needs will be met. But you have both neglected each other.

I don't think you are thinking about yourself or know what is best for you becAuse surely you don't think that another affair or a divorce is in your best interest?

Yes, you do have control over your marriage. And you have control over the bad choices you are making right now.

Let me tell you from hard experience that dealing with an affair while dealing with a child who has died is devastating. But you are signing up for that. You don't have to destroy your marriage in order to recover from the death of your daughter.

"So, last week things came to a head when I told him in our joint counseling session I do not want to have sex for a while. I need time. He moved out the next day, saying he will not go back to counseling."

Basically, you expect your needs to be met while refusing to meet his. That is thoughtless and shows a lack of empathy. I don't know many women who would tolerate living with a man who refused to meet her needs.

Your husband is willing to do what it takes to make you happy and you have rejected him. Why? "I stayed in the marriage for my kids. Now, I have no more energy. Since our daugther died, he thinks we can start all over again, have this grand epic romance, we can have sex whenever and wherever as we are now empty nesters."

Sadly, your therapist has almost destroyed your marriage because she has utterly no idea how to save a marriage. She has encouraged you to mAke marriage wrecking choices at the most devastating time of your life.

You don't have to lose your marriage in addition to your child. I lost both my child and my marriage at the same time. You don't have to lose both if you will just use this program, my friend. If you lose your marriage it will be because of your choices and nothing else.

MelodyLane, It was not the therapist idea for us to refrain from SF, but mine. She did not advocate separation, this was my dh's idea. My therapist is actually following the Harley's model of putting the spouse first, of love bank deposits etc. She is not advocating divorce or anything like that. She thinks we have a real chance of saving this marriage and is working towards that goal.

I know you are trying to help, and I really appreciate it. I have met my husband's ENs for years, I only stopped after my dd passed away. I still tried to meet all his needs, SF, AS, Financial. I was a loving attentive wife. All I ever received from him was complaints, on what I was not doing regarding SF. It was his number one complaint. When I intitiated, several times, I was accused of doing it out of duty. When I did not initiate, I was accused on not loving him. I was damned if I did and damned if I did not. This went on for years....

I agree we did not follow the MB principles, and now we are dealing with years of neglect. I don't think you understand how tired I am. I am still trying to work on this marriage, I told him after our daughter died that I would need time to grieve. He agreed and was very supportive. However, he still wanted something from me, attention, sf. I just did not have it in me....

Now, we are dating. We are talking, planning a vacation together. For the first time in 13 years I feel as if there is hope for us. We speak of our daughter, with laughter and with tears. We talk on the phone several times a day, we have lunch quite regularly and have dates on weekends. He is engaged, he is loving, he is attentive. He is trying to make amends for the affair, for all the subsequent years of not taking responsibility for his actions.

The separation has forced us to examine what we have, and is rekindling our marriage.

NOMO

NOMO, however much you like this therapist, it is obvious she has not helped you and you have not been using MB concepts. I seriously doubt she understands how to use the program. There is no reason that your marriage would be such a wreck after all these years. A complaint is simply a warning that you are losing love units. It sounds to me like you weren't meeting your husbands needs in the way they should have met, and vice versa. This is why you are not in love.

When you follow the program as it is intended, couples fall in love and sexual desire is not a problem. When there is true desire, spouses do not feel unloved as your husband has.

Separation is not good for your marriage, nor is talking about his affair. Once all the facts are known , it should never be brought up again. A marriage can't be sustained living apart.

I think it's great that he is willing, but just know that you make it harder by being separated and make it much more likely he will have an affair. I have doubts you really understand this program. We can help you with this if you want.

It would be a tragedy to lose your daughter and your marriage, don't you agree?

"The separation has forced us to examine what we have, and is rekindling our marriage."

You already know what you have though. There is nothing to "examine." Your marriage would be rekindled if you shared your lives and spent every night together. You can't create intimacy by living like coworkers. You are married people. You were already detached in your marriage; a separation only aggravates the existing problem.

I say this with kindness, NOMO, because I see you headed for a train wreck when you have already been hit once. If you want to know the definition of hell on earth, try enduring the death of your child AND an affair. That is what you are risking, for absolutely no good reason.

I was just reading a post in Recovery about statistics and thought I would quote what Rocketqueen posted:

"True recovery and a true romance afterwards takes AT LEAST ONE of two things:
One, a BS that has the ability to "forgive" and love freely again,regardless of the crime. Someone who is forgiving by nature, not resentful.
Two, a WS that is deeply remorseful and willing to move mountains to heal their spouse.

If the first is present and not the second, the BS can be the driver, put the effort in,and as long as the marriage is in future affair proof even though their spouse was not remorseful, the BS seems to be able to forgive and move on and live in the present.
If the second is present, it is possible IMO for a
truly repentant WS to turn around a very resentful and unforgiving BS.
In cases where NEITHER are present, Recovery will never happen.


In my case, my WH was never truly repentant. I was the forgiving BS, always bending over backwards to keep this marriage afloat, trying to meet ENs only to have it tossed back in my face. I don't think you understand the level of pain of having an unrepentant WS.

Now, he is truly repentant, not just about the affair but his treatment of me afterwards.

MeolodyLane, I understand where you are coming from. For years, I was loving, forgiving, understanding. He was NOT. Now, it is his turn to prove to me that he wants this marriage. If he were to indulge in an affair now, then, you know what, he was never really invested in the marriage to begin with. I cannot go back to the marriage that was, I need to have a partner fully invested in making this marriage work.

I think the insanity of my marriage was doing the same thing over and over again hoping for different results.

I think the MB model works, however, my lovebank is very much depleted. He needs to make some deposits. He is trying to do so now. I am filling his LB by going on dates, being attentive and loving as I always am.

Nomo

NOMO, rocket queen is only partially right, (and she is 100% wrong in the case of wayward wives - this is why folk wisdom is so destructive) it does not take forgiveness to recover a marriage. It takes just compensation. Like Dr Harley often states, he is all in favor of forgiveness but not in the case of infidelity. When applied to these situations, it instead leads to an unrecovered marriage. Dr Harley doesn't believe in forgiveness and he also doesn't believe in one sided, unreciprocated need meeting, for the very reasons you have experienced. It is unconditional love and thAt leads to neglect and abuse.

What I am suggesting, NOMO, is that you accept that your own methods have not worked in the past and they wont work in the future. Why not try something that does work, Marriage Builders? It does not involve one sided giving and it does not involve unwarranted forgiveness, but teaching your husband to become an expert at making you happy, and vice versa.

We can show you how to do this if you will follow us. You are playing pool with your eyes closed - again - and we can show you how to become an expert shot.

"I think the insanity of my marriage was doing the same thing over and over again hoping for different results. "

I very much agree with you here, which is why I am suggesting that you use Marriage Builders this time. It really does work. Your own methods have NOT.

" If he were to indulge in an affair now, then, you know what, he was never really invested in the marriage to begin with. I cannot go back to the marriage that was, I need to have a partner fully invested in making this marriage work."

Getting separated will not cause him to become invested, though; it achieves the opposite of what you say you want. What will cause him to be invested is falling in love with you. Do you want us to teach you how to do that?

MelodyLane, sorry for not responding sooner, please do not think I am not grateful for your time and advice. I just hae so much on my plate, I feel overwhelmed most days. The one year anniversary of my daughter's death is next month and I feel so surreal, how can I have survived a year without her.

Anyway, things are progressing. My dh spends more time at home that at his apartment. He has only been there one night out of the last 2 weeks.

We are progressing. He is definitely filling up my love bank. However, I still am very reluctant to have any type of relationship talks. I am living very much in the now, trying not to look ahead for several reasons. My future seems to be such a bleak prospect without my daughter, and I try to get through one day at a time. However, I know that my dh and I need to discuss our issues, to find a different solution.

I have decided to talk to him about trying the MB concepts, filling out the questionaires and sign up for coaching. I think he would be more than agreeable to all of this.

However, the one area in our marriage that has been the main source of contention is the area of SF. I don't know how to bring it up, how to discuss without feeling attacked. I am sure he is in a different mindset, he has said as much. But, I feel as if I have an aversion to discussing the topic, not SF itself.

I was hoping that the wiser DBers out here can provide some help on this issue.

I would get onboard with the coaching and/or the online program and save the SF talk for help from your coach.

So table the SF talk for now. When do you think you can sign up?

So sorry about your DD.

Brainhurts, thank you.

I will table the SF talk for now.

I will print out the EN questionnaires and we will spend time this weekend filling them out as a first step.

N