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Hi all,
Thanks for your counsel and support last year (MelodyLane, BrainHurts et al ref http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166442&Number=2645999#Post2645999). Time for Plan D.

Recap and update: After discovering her affair, I made WW42 (WW41 then) leave home, and I kept DSS12 and DD7; months later WW42 came and insisted on taking DSS12, against his and my will; they then lived with OMPOS for a number of months, after which OMPOS & WW42 broke up acrimoniously* - with DSS12's schooling taking another hit. Meantime, I've had a cancer scare and subsequent surgery, but am soldiering on with DD8 and rebuilding my business.

DD8, I'm glad to say, is doing well - in school, at sports and music etc.

DSS13 is growing more distant, and is facing the prospect of attending four schools in two years. He's lost his sporting mojo, and the passion for science that we shared, and we see less and less of him.

WW42 is broke, and begging me for a) a loan, and b) a settlement (ie divorce settlement). She insists she doesn't "want the house" (which I'd bought years before meeting her - not that UK law takes notice of that), but is pleading that I offer her "something reasonable" so she can get back on her feet. She cries tears of so-called "regret", and says she'd rather not come to me for a penny (because of her guilt and how bad she feels), but has nowhere else to turn.

WW42 also says she'd rather we did our deal before involving courts and lawyers, to minimise legal fees and court time. On balance I think it would be in our best interests to deal privately up-front, but I'm stuck on the terms and the whys and wherefores of Plan D. Please, please advise.

Many thanks & best wishes,
Igi Iroko.

*PS: WW42 is apparently involved in Small Claims Court action against OMPOS, over who gets furniture/furnishings etc...


----
Me: BS (b. 1965)
Wife: WS (b. 1971)
Affair exposed: May 2012. Affair proven: Apr 2012. Affair first suspected: Jan 2011. (Affair started: Late 2010.) ILYBINILWY (said by WW to BH): ~Sep 2009
DD: b. 2005. Married: May 2005. Met: Jul 2002. DSS: b. 1999.
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Originally Posted by igiiroko
Hi all,
Thanks for your counsel and support last year (MelodyLane, BrainHurts et al ref http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166442&Number=2645999#Post2645999). Time for Plan D.

Recap and update: After discovering her affair, I made WW42 (WW41 then) leave home, and I kept DSS12 and DD7; months later WW42 came and insisted on taking DSS12, against his and my will; they then lived with OMPOS for a number of months, after which OMPOS & WW42 broke up acrimoniously* - with DSS12's schooling taking another hit. Meantime, I've had a cancer scare and subsequent surgery, but am soldiering on with DD8 and rebuilding my business.

DD8, I'm glad to say, is doing well - in school, at sports and music etc.

DSS13 is growing more distant, and is facing the prospect of attending four schools in two years. He's lost his sporting mojo, and the passion for science that we shared, and we see less and less of him.

WW42 is broke, and begging me for a) a loan, and b) a settlement (ie divorce settlement). She insists she doesn't "want the house" (which I'd bought years before meeting her - not that UK law takes notice of that), but is pleading that I offer her "something reasonable" so she can get back on her feet. She cries tears of so-called "regret", and says she'd rather not come to me for a penny (because of her guilt and how bad she feels), but has nowhere else to turn.

WW42 also says she'd rather we did our deal before involving courts and lawyers, to minimise legal fees and court time. On balance I think it would be in our best interests to deal privately up-front, but I'm stuck on the terms and the whys and wherefores of Plan D. Please, please advise.

Many thanks & best wishes,
Igi Iroko.

*PS: WW42 is apparently involved in Small Claims Court action against OMPOS, over who gets furniture/furnishings etc...
Welcome back, igiiroko.

I advise you to get legal advice on this. You need to ask what a court would order you to pay after an eight-year marriage with one child. It is no longer as easy as it once was for women to claim a large share of pre-marital assets after having been married for a short time, but the existence of your daughter is important. A judge would award your wife some of the assets. Only a lawyer could advise how much. It would then be up to you to make her an offer that is more advantageous to you, but not so low that she goes to court and is awarded a high sum.

A one-off legal consultation with a high-street lawyer will cost you about �100 in the UK. That's well worth it, i would say.


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I don't know what the laws are in the UK but I would start by writing out a list of what YOU want...you have the upper hand here. Agree with SC to see an attorney but write out a list first so you go in there with specific questions for your situation. Do you want any sort of visitation with DSS12? I would not present WW with your best offer upfront...leave room for negotiations.

And do not loan her money or let her tears affect your judgement. Her "guilt" will be short lived.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I didn't take into account the fact that you have custody of your daughter at the moment.

Could you tell me why that is? I'm puzzled because, if she had wanted her freedom, she could have asked you to keep your stepson as well, but instead she has taken him and left you with your daughter. Have you any idea what her reasoning is? Is she likely to leave you with your daughter for the longer term?

As pat of a divorce settlement, whether you do it yourself online or whether you get legal representation, a judge will want to be satisfied about the welfare of both children. A judge won't necessarily honour any prior mutual agreement.

If you come to an informal agreement as part of the settlement that your daughter should live with you, then a judge would be likely to say that you must stay in the house with her, and it should only be sold and the assets divided if you cohabit or when your daughter leaves full-time education (right up to the end of university). The division of assets at that time could be something like 60% to you and 40 to your wife. You could offer to buy your wife out now, and perhaps even get a more favourable settlement on the grounds that she will not be required to pay you child support, that would be a good thing.

If, however, she decides that she wants to have custody of your daughter (and after all, she has her own son, so how much harder could it be to have both?), that situation could be reversed, with your being required to move out and take 40% of the assets only when your daughter leaves education.

I don't think it is as simple as saying that you have the upper hand. I know she left her daughter with you and this and her affair make her seem feckless, but I don't think that means that a judge would award you custody on that basis. In a battle, your wife would use the argument that a girl needs her mother, and her affair and feckless lifestyle are over. So what does she want to do about your daughter?

Alternatively: is reconciliation out of the question for you? What about her - does she show any signs of wanting to go back to you?

It's a horrible situation when a WS appears to lose her mind even more than is normal, and moves in with OP and ends up destitute, but if you want to avoid your daughter having to live jointly with you on the one hand and her mother and some horrible addict on the other, then reconciliation is the best way to protect her (and your stepson). What is the possibility of this?


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
I don't think it is as simple as saying that you have the upper hand. I know she left her daughter with you and this and her affair make her seem feckless, but I don't think that means that a judge would award you custody on that basis.

I was not implying that custody of the children would remain as is. However, a judge should consider that DD is in a stable environment compared to DSS who is moving from school to school and has already seen one live-in bf move out. If WW really wants to avoid court and the cost of a legal battle, I do think BH holds the upper hand. WW is already begging him for money. A WW can always be difficult regardless of what she says now so I would move swiftly and come up with a reasonable offer given the circumstances.



BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I asked my then-STBX what he wanted so I had a starting point and could also get an idea of what he considered reasonable. Has WW offered you any specifics or have you asked her to give you some type of offer? I wouldn't point out anything to her but you may want to ask what she had in mind and see if you are ok with what she wants...get it in writing. If she feels she is getting what she wants (or most of it) she may be willing to hurry things along but I would not offer up info to her.

When you do speak to an attorney he can tell you what is likely, what is statutory law, etc. My attorney did not negotiate anything with my ex on my behalf. I only used the attorney for drafting documents and guidance through the legal process. My ex never retained an attorney and wanted to save money.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I see your point now. I do agree that he has the upper hand at the moment. I think you're also saying that if he wants to keep it he needs to be "reasonable", and I agree.

OP, it doesn't seem reasonable that you have to give her anything at all, but if you make a very low offer and stick to it when she protests, she could end up working out that a court battle is actually in her favour.

In 2011, I was quoted possible costs of �7,000 if I retained a lawyer for a divorce. (This was after my last D Day that year, when I was considering divorce.)

If you have assets in the house worth, at a conservative estimate given UK house prices, �50,000, then she might work out that it is better to lose �7,000 in legal fees in order to gain 40% of the balance. And in fact, she doesn't have to use a lawyer to gain those fees. All she has to do is petition for a divorce online, and the judge will work out what is fair. I should have thought that after a 7 year marriage, with a child, (in other words, what she will argue is a genuine, although short marriage, not an immigration scam or an attempt to fleece a man of his assets by marrying), a judge will award her close to 40% of the assets, even if he does not give her custody of the daughter.

You have to work out the various scenarios and decide on a path that might not be the most advantageous financially, but is advantageous with regard to keeping your daughter. That's why you need a lawyer a least once.


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Thanx, SC and BR. Your points are so very cogent.

WW42 is happy to leave DD8 with me indefinitely, so long as she has reasonable contact (e.g. alternate weekend stays). WW42 also seems to want to keep DSS13 with her, and I can only speculate as to why: as a political point to demonstrate that she can "be a mother"; as theoretical leverage in order to get custody of DD8; or to address her previous accusations of my having "poisoned" her son's mind against her.

In the informal arrangement we have, WW42 spends Saturdays with DD8. On alternate Saturday mornings, we drive up to London, where I drop DD8 off with her mother for the day, and pick her up in the evening. On the other alternate Saturdays, WW42 is meant to travel down to where we live, pick up DD8 and spend the day with her, then bring her back in the evening. In reality, WW42 seldom comes down on her weekends: she pleads lack of funds, although that does not seem to impede her social life or get in the way of trips to Paris or up country. DD8 has had no overnight stays with WW42, because WW42 has been living with OMPOS and now with one of OMPOS's female friends. Along with DSS13.

SC, I like your point about buying WW42 out of her share and her child-maintenance obligation. I also agree that a �100 legal consultation would be a worthwhile investment. BR, I like your point about asking WW42 for what figure she has in mind, as I was not inclined to name a figure (let alone a best offer) first.

In the immediate term, she is in a bit of a fix because her car has broken down so she is asking me for a loan of �600 for repairs. If I lent her that, I'd of course take it off the settlement figure. I've already lent her �300-�400. I'm just not wanting to be too much of a soft-touch: all those years back, while she was secretly alley-catting with OMPOS and others, I was her regular ATM. Even in recent months, I've given her the odd sum "so she could take DSS13 out" (because she's called crying, broke).

I'll definitely talk to a lawyer on Monday re settlement ideas. Re the loan, I'll take advice from folks here.

Many thanks,
igiiroko.


----
Me: BS (b. 1965)
Wife: WS (b. 1971)
Affair exposed: May 2012. Affair proven: Apr 2012. Affair first suspected: Jan 2011. (Affair started: Late 2010.) ILYBINILWY (said by WW to BH): ~Sep 2009
DD: b. 2005. Married: May 2005. Met: Jul 2002. DSS: b. 1999.
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Document her contact with DD8. WWs have been known to change their minds and go for the throat in regards to custody and potential cash cow that is child support.

DSS13...unfortunately, I don't think you have any legal right to him.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Alternatively: is reconciliation out of the question for you? What about her - does she show any signs of wanting to go back to you?

It's a horrible situation when a WS appears to lose her mind even more than is normal, and moves in with OP and ends up destitute, but if you want to avoid your daughter having to live jointly with you on the one hand and her mother and some horrible addict on the other, then reconciliation is the best way to protect her (and your stepson). What is the possibility of this?


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Also, if she decides to apply for custody she will change her lifestyle. She knows, or her lawyer will tell her, what a judge would make of it. She will apply for social housing for her and her son so that she has a decent place of her own in which to live, she will not move any boyfriends in and she will try and get a job, at least until she has a decision.


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Originally Posted by igiiroko
BR, I like your point about asking WW42 for what figure she has in mind, as I was not inclined to name a figure (let alone a best offer) first.

What figure she has in mind for what? The house? Support?

I wouldn't ask her for a "figure." I would be more vague and see what she offers up regarding asset division, support $, visitation, etc.

Email her something like this:

WW, I agree that it would be best if we could iron out a divorce settlement without spending a ton of money on attorneys and court costs. I do not want to fight and hope we can come to an agreement for everyone's sake, especially the children. They have been through enough. Please get back to me and let me know what you specifically have in mind. Thank you.

igr

And again...I would not loan her anything. I don't know about the UK but if you haven't filed for legal separation or divorce, a spouse usually has access to all marital property and funds. Informal agreements don't mean squat. Do not assume you can take a loan off the divorce settlement. In the US, she would have had a right to the money and doesn't owe you anything.

Do not give her $$$. She is where she is because of her own choices...she can save herself.

ETA: And if/when, she responds with a list of wants, don't respond with anything other than a thank you and you will look it over. You don't have to engage right away. Take it to your consultation.

Good luck!



BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Welcome back igiiroko, sorry it's come to this, but you're getting wonderful advice.

Is your WW saying she wants to try and work something out with you and her or a settlement?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thanks all - awesome again!

@SC, @BH: WW is not showing signs of wanting reconciliation - but then, I've made it clear it's not an option for me.

@BR: I like your draft email.

When I told her tonight "I can't help you out", she took it to mean that I didn't have the funds, and replied "well, if you can't afford �600 now, how will you be able to afford the bigger thing?".

I'm wondering therefore if she'll be more aggressive in court/pushing for legal settlement if I don't lend her the money: not out of spite, but simply in terms of capitalising on my "need" to potentially liquidate other assets in order to settle.


----
Me: BS (b. 1965)
Wife: WS (b. 1971)
Affair exposed: May 2012. Affair proven: Apr 2012. Affair first suspected: Jan 2011. (Affair started: Late 2010.) ILYBINILWY (said by WW to BH): ~Sep 2009
DD: b. 2005. Married: May 2005. Met: Jul 2002. DSS: b. 1999.
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Welcome back, BH.. :-).


----
Me: BS (b. 1965)
Wife: WS (b. 1971)
Affair exposed: May 2012. Affair proven: Apr 2012. Affair first suspected: Jan 2011. (Affair started: Late 2010.) ILYBINILWY (said by WW to BH): ~Sep 2009
DD: b. 2005. Married: May 2005. Met: Jul 2002. DSS: b. 1999.
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If the well runs dry she will go for the throat. I really would not put anything past a WW who needs money.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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@KR: that's kinda my thinking, yeah. She's pleading now and acting all needy, but her tone could change - even if not from within, then from others who may influence her thinking. But I suppose even if I lend her the cash, she could still bare the claws.

@SC: in terms of changing her lifestyle, she's currently renting a room in a house owned/rented by a friend of OMPOS. WW shares that room and bed with DSS13. That's why the question of DD8 staying over is a non-starter. WW says she's living from hand-to-mouth on her wages.


----
Me: BS (b. 1965)
Wife: WS (b. 1971)
Affair exposed: May 2012. Affair proven: Apr 2012. Affair first suspected: Jan 2011. (Affair started: Late 2010.) ILYBINILWY (said by WW to BH): ~Sep 2009
DD: b. 2005. Married: May 2005. Met: Jul 2002. DSS: b. 1999.
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Are you documenting everything that she does about DD8? I would stop giving her anything but be prepared for those claws.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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Originally Posted by igiiroko
Welcome back, BH.. :-).
Thanks, friend.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by igiiroko
@KR: that's kinda my thinking, yeah. She's pleading now and acting all needy, but her tone could change - even if not from within, then from others who may influence her thinking. But I suppose even if I lend her the cash, she could still bare the claws.

@SC: in terms of changing her lifestyle, she's currently renting a room in a house owned/rented by a friend of OMPOS. WW shares that room and bed with DSS13. That's why the question of DD8 staying over is a non-starter. WW says she's living from hand-to-mouth on her wages.
The boy is 13 and sleeps in the same bed as his mom? Do they not have a couch to sleep on?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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