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He won't do anything. He says I can read it but he won't listen. He said he's not going to stop getting angry at me - thinks it is ridiculous to tell someone to stop getting angry. He asked: Will you stop getting angry at your kids?" He's got a point though- so I said anger isn't bad just how you act in anger. He again asked what he did that was so bad two days ago. Blamed it on me being snarky.

Sad.

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Originally Posted by Mae_1
He won't do anything. He says I can read it but he won't listen. He said he's not going to stop getting angry at me - thinks it is ridiculous to tell someone to stop getting angry. He asked: Will you stop getting angry at your kids?" He's got a point though- so I said anger isn't bad just how you act in anger. He again asked what he did that was so bad two days ago. Blamed it on me being snarky.

Sad.

I would start making plans to separate. Will he move out?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I don't know. He just came up to talk to me. He feels like he has been made to do so much in our relationship- I have bulldozed him a lot in the past- that he sees this as another attempt to control him.

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Originally Posted by Mae_1
I don't know. He just came up to talk to me. He feels like he has been made to do so much in our relationship- I have bulldozed him a lot in the past- that he sees this as another attempt to control him.

Yes, you are trying to stop him from having angry outbursts. If he won't do that you should separate. Will he move out?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sounds like my former attitude. I believed that if it was meant to be, things would just work out. I felt that anything I did over and above that should be enough for her, right?
Then I realized it will have to be worked at all the time. That's why he is feeling "controlled" is because he is beginning to realize he may lose you if he doesn't change his ways. I look at it as hopeful- he may be on the verge of an epiphany.


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Melody lane I know how wise you are - I have seen you on these forums and I know you aren't about to enable me. Thank-you for that. I'm not ready tonight to ask him to leave but I realize this may have to happen yet.

We just had a long conversation by text and he started to admit he has a problem and that it needs to change. We will have to continue conversation tomorrow because we are both too tired now. I hope the outcome is good.

Our convo:

Him: I wish I could go back 5 days and everything would be normal. You went from fine to deeply hurt in a matter of days. I'm sorry I hurt you but I don't want to change who I am.

Me: Because of how you treated me 2 days ago, Because you aren't allowed to treat me with disrespect. It will always impact me this way- to have the one I love the most and is supposed to love me and treat me with the utmost care take a hammer to me and lay me out flat. You don't take your anger out on me and none of this happens.

Him:I don't even know what started this. I was having an aweful day when this started and you were asking me for stuff and I wanted in writing what you wanted me to say to Mikr and before that I'm blank and after I'm blank. I don't even know why you wanted to meet for lunch that day. I don't want to go through it again. I'm sorry I got mad at you it wasn't all about you. I think I was letting off steam and it got directed your way.

Me: On any other day you would have just texted me the number or told me you were too busy. I get that you were having a bad day. I knew you were taking your frustration and unhappiness out on me. It's what I need you to change. To not hurt the one who is closest to you in anger. I need you to control your anger around me because of the way it decimates me when you don't. I need you to take responsibility for your anger and not blame it on me. You want me to help you or change behaviour that bothers you I will do it. Just tell me instead of snapping and beating me up (emotionally) I don't want to bulldoze you anymore. I don't want you to feel like I am running over you. I will work on anything you need me to but I need you to stop taking your anger out on me (and the kids). Will you stop taking your anger out on me?

Him: what if its you I'm mad at?

Me: Then choose to leave the room, don't respond - I will respect your need for space like I did two nights ago. Then when you have calmed down tell me what frustrated you and we can talk.

Him:You want me to go away every time I'm mad. I guess I'm mad a lot if this is an issue.

Then I explained some more and time for sleep. Sucks we have to revisit this tomorrow. I know if I just would tell him it's this way or you need to leave - it would let him know how hurtful his behaviour is. I just need to see where he goes from here and if he's willing to change his behaviour for me- tomorrow's conversation.

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Thank-you Neera. I hope so!

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Originally Posted by Mae_1
Me: Then choose to leave the room, don't respond - I will respect your need for space like I did two nights ago. Then when you have calmed down tell me what frustrated you and we can talk.

Mae, he needs to do more than leave the room. He needs to STOP getting angry. That is the problem. And he has told you he does not want to change for you.
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I'm sorry I hurt you but I don't want to change who I am.

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He won't do anything. He says I can read it but he won't listen. He said he's not going to stop getting angry at me - thinks it is ridiculous to tell someone to stop getting angry.

So unless you know how to change him against his will, there is nothing you can do other than separate and take steps to protect yourself.

He has told you over and over again he won't change for you. He said no. And trying to change him will only make him more angry which will make him more dangerous to you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Your husband is what Dr Harley would call a "freeloader" in his book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You need to let him know that Yes, if he had ever taken your feeling into account, he would have read that you can even eliminate the feelings of anger.
If you get mad at the kids, you can do this to Mae.

However, saying he won't get help because you get mad at the kids is just trying to get the pressure off of him.

Let him know this isn't something that was a problem two days ago. Tell him he is an angry man. You are not willing to put up with it anymore.

From Lovebusters:
Dr Harley: " An angry outburst is a deliberate attempt to hurt your spouse because of anger, usually in the form of verbal or physical attacks.
When selfish demands and disrespectful judgments fail to get you what you need from your spouse, your Taker's next approach is to use angry outbursts...
Angry outburst are abusive and controlling, but your Taker justifies them by trying to convince you that your spouse makes you lose your temper.
An angry outburst is temporary insanity, and the direction it take is unpredictable. Permanent physical damage and even murder can occur during an angry outburst where the risk had not been apparent prior to the episode. This is an important reason why couples should have NO tolerance for angry outbursts."

Step One for overcoming AO is to acknowledge the fact that you, and only you, determine if you will have an angry outburst. No one "makes" you angry.

Let me encourage you Mae, your gut is right... you can do this.
Tell him you would be more than happy to create a safe romantic marriage with him and address every complaint he has about you... but ONLY after he takes Anger management and can guarantee you and your kids safety. Until then, noting else will be addressed.


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"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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I spoke to him again tonight. He wants me to be happy and said he was trying to change. I sent him the freeloaders link and anger mgmt 101 and I will discuss it with him later.

He has only ever seen anger as natural and felt like he was doing great not spanking kids and (mostly) not yelling. Him and I rarely raise our voices to each other either anymore. His abusive text was so shocking because I'm not used to that.

I feel we are getting on the right path.

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Originally Posted by Mae_1
Him and I rarely raise our voices to each other either anymore.

Mae, this is how my husband justified his angry outbursts: "I never raised my voice!!" But he was still having an angry outburst. One doesn't need to raise their voice to have an angry outburst.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mae_1
Him and I rarely raise our voices to each other either anymore.

Mae, this is how my husband justified his angry outbursts: "I never raised my voice!!" But he was still having an angry outburst. One doesn't need to raise their voice to have an angry outburst.

Ok Mel, what was he doing? Hitting you? Throwing things? I have wondered at what point certain occurrences would be classified as AO's myself.


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Originally Posted by NeeraZycantel
Ok Mel, what was he doing? Hitting you? Throwing things? I have wondered at what point certain occurrences would be classified as AO's myself.

No, it is when a person is ANGRY and lashes out at their spouse. One doesn't have to even raise their voice to do that. My husband rarely, if ever, raised his voice, but he had angry shows of temper.

Have you read the chapter on angry outbursts?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Mae_1
Him and I rarely raise our voices to each other either anymore.

Mae, this is how my husband justified his angry outbursts: "I never raised my voice!!" But he was still having an angry outburst. One doesn't need to raise their voice to have an angry outburst.

Ok that's good to know. I would agree with you. I do get tense when he's angry because I know he doesn't have a tight rein on his temper. Mostly this is in relation to kids because the more I have tried to POJA with him the last couple years the less his frustration leading to AO. He certainly has had trouble in the past empathizing with me and so will dj.

I realize we have a lot of bad habits I have created by not speaking up more. It's easier to be independent than attemp POJA with someone that can have AO.

I want to change this together and he is starting to read some of Dr Harley's info. Can we not start UA this week?

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Originally Posted by Mae_1
[

I want to change this together and he is starting to read some of Dr Harley's info. Can we not start UA this week?

That sounds great!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by HonestyLovebust
I'm trying to understand for the sake of Mae and myself. I read this thread from the beginning but I haven't seen very much of the more experienced MB members talking about Mae working on her side of the fence? When Markos had is AO problem, I don't recall Prica's thread to be all about his anger, she had things to work on herself. I had a completely different experience in terms of the direction to take and my wife blow's up at me all the time.

When I arrived in 2010, the majority of people posting on my thread did not know what Dr. Harley said about anger. They did not give me Dr. Harley's advice. My original thread is not full of good advice, so I wouldn't point anybody there to learn what Dr. Harley says about AOs.

When I started posting to Dr. Harley himself, he told me that nothing I did would matter until Markos eliminated his anger. The AOs MUST be dealt with first. Telling a woman that she must work on her side of the street WHILE HER HUSBAND IS HAVING AOs is very, very dangerous advice.

You did not have access to the private forum on which most of my threads were posted. The majority of the focus BY DR. HARLEY was on markos' AOs.


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What to do with an Angry Husband

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Can we not start UA this week?
Is he willing to stop his AOs?


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What to do with an Angry Husband

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He is willing to do what it takes to make me happy. He is just becoming aware of the extent of the problem from my perspective. He listened to the anger mgmt 101 and we have started to talk a little. I think it's a start. I had written Joyce about the issue also and they are sending me the book "he wins she wins".

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