Then again...if some men just want their SF needs met, and don't really care about creating a long-term relationship of extraordinary care, then I guess they can just keep being freeloaders & renters...and getting laid by other freeloaders & renters.

But I think there are already forums online for THOSE types of stories!

My test is can they be my best friend! If I find they have a value system and a quality that would make them not my best friend then they failed. I want a best friend first, a boyfriend second, and a marriage third.

I am an engineer, so I am surrounded by men. It is easier for me to make a guy my best friend that a lady. I enjoy my friendships with men greatly because in all reality men are easy. They usually come drama free and I enjoy their perspective on life.

If they don't have qualities that allow them to be my best friend ... then they flunked.

So I move on to the next...! Simple as that.

But a man must be attractive to a women to get that first date before he even has a chance to start meeting ENs. Which is confusing for a man because what gets him the second date is almost entirely different from what gets him the second or third date.

It is so funny that you bring up this freeloader mentality. I am realizing that some guys go into a relationship with a women really strong, and this leaves the impression in the woman that she is meeting his needs, and the relationship is taking off, only to find out he really is a freeloader.

I had this recently. What was good about this situation was I spotted a couple times, so I pressed for more time. Why wouldn't someone who seemed interested not want to give me his time? In all reality, he was a freeloader...he didn't want and had no desire to give me his time. In all reality he had no desire to ever meet my needs. I really don't know what he wanted from me...it was a confusing situation for a while. I finally got some clarity, but mostly I just have a great big lesson learned.

I must admit it was a tough lesson to learn, but in all reality I am so thankful to learn this lesson. It just reassured me I am on the right path to finding a good marriage material man. Dating just keeps getting easier for me.

Better I learned this freeloader mentality now before I really do commit to the wrong kind of guy.

Probably because bad boys are very good at LB deposits, they are pursuers and they are sure to wine and dine. A lot of good men are very passive, and that works against them. Some of the worst threads in the infidelity section are the ones were these men revert to passive behaviour during a wife's affair. Women cannot respect men who do not pursue or act passive.

All of this is just curiosity for me of course but I find it interesting because there is a lot of advice out there for men and most of it revolves around triggering attraction in a woman. And almost none of it emphasizes showing care.

And I've got to say that the science backs it up at least if you focus on the issue of what most women find more or less attractive.

Narcissism, Machiavellian-ism, Psychopathy are common traits for a man that most women would find attractive, at least initially.

People tend to publish what people what to believe, and not the truth. I wonder how many teen boys these days have no actual idea how to have sex when the time comes, because they have watched pornography - or how many teen girls think it is completely normal for a guy to ask for anal on a 2nd date. Cosmo and Men's Health isn't any better.

Dr. Harley completely disagrees with this.

Most women are not attracted to these things. These "bad boys" are very likely meeting some of the woman's important emotional needs. And women tend to put up with abusive behavior or lovebusting if their needs are being met -- women typically leave men for neglect, not abuse/lovebusters.

Dr Harley is talking in terms of relationships and romantic love though and I don't disagree with him.

I'm talking about raw attraction. There�s a saying that goes, �Women want to marry the guy in the suit, but party with the guy on the Harley.� I think there is some truth to that, at least in the dating world.

Women need financial security and domestic support but are also very attracted to alpha males. Sometimes 'the guy on the Harley' may seem like the alpha male.

A lot of feedback to think about, thank you all!

There seems to be a general agreement that a women's sex drive is different than that of man and
that woman need all of their emtional needs met first, to be able to reach an orgasm. I agree.
Some here add that for some woman a buyers agreement is an absolutele necessity aswell.


This describes exactly what I mean with sexual compatibility:
To make love and to reach a female orgasm that is so powerful that it transcends and surpass a man's own orgasm.
The ultimate state of symbiosis,
I doubt it can be faked, as it takes two to get there...
You are correct HomeSweetHome, to reach it requires trust and radical honesty.
This is about quality, not quantity!

However, I am having serious doubts EVERY human is able to reach these heights emotionally and/or physically.
And this is my concern exactly.

My first partner was unable to get there. while SF was fulfilling, it was a hard-to-earn price.
I did not have this problem again with two other partners later in life...
Negotiation was enthousiastic & effortlessly because these partners had SF on their EN list aswell.

I dated a girl this summer who wanted me to make love to her, and we reached these heights consistenly.
We put up boundaries so we would restrain from having more sex on future dates.
I am sure she is able to meet my top emotional need, but she is a renter and is not willing to make changes.

If I hear these stories from my friends who are unable to have an orgasm or see SF as a job,
I have the feeling these women are the norm, not the exception.

What do you think?

It is the norm, but the average "meh" relationship and coasting marriage is also the norm.

I want that!!!

After reading the forum, the books, and listening to the radio show I've made a lot of changes and now I'm just dying to take my new knowledge and completely and totally meet the needs of some special lady!

But....

It's not been easy to find that special lady .... and .... if she isn't familiar with MB concepts it doesn't work anyway because she sabotages it with her own LB, independent behavior, lacking time, etc.

I think what Indie says is right on. A woman that really understands her sexuality will also understand that she has her part in building the relationship to get it to that level. The rest are renters just trying to attract a man that will met her needs in a context that almost certainly won't work.

Would you please elaborate on this, FF?

I find men attractive who can meet the top 5 female ENs, and are marginally physically appealing to me. Among the 22 men I've dated in the past 6 months, only ONE was good at all of them. (He broke my heart, btw)

But perhaps I've missed your point, so would you mind to clarify? Thanks, Z

Great story, HSH! Can you please clarify what you mean by "time?" Do you mean, slow down the pace of the relationship, or spend more time together? Sorry...I'm a dolt today.

Woot! Love this!!!

I'm surrounded by lawyers...not too many "best friends" around.

You'll find her!

Interesting point about not being familiar w. MB...I think some people naturally 'get it' even if they don't know what it's called. And if you talk about it in general terms, you might find that she agrees and thinks it's AWESOME!

One of the toughies for me is watching a man act like a freeloader/renter in the beginning. That's natural and normal! I shouldn't jump into Buyer-Mode right away. But I watch and wait to see how he responds to little adjustments or my feelings about small things. Then I can see whether he has any Buyer in him.

Did I miss this story or did you not tell it?

OP,

The women who are in long term or marriage relationships discussing intimate details of their relationships and sexual relationships are not in happy, safe, MB type relationships. They don't treasure and protect their relationship if they're having these discussions with a man.

I am one of those women who does have a sex drive. My DH is the only partner I have had, but even before we met I had the drive of a 14 year old boy. I have always been the higher drive in our family. And, unlike a lot of women, I'm always game for a good time with him, even if I'm angry and unhappy.

I hear that I'm in the small minority, though!

Viscountess

So...is a passive man truly a "good man" then? Hmmmm.....

Somehow I believe that there are good men who are willing to pursue good women. I'm hopeful it's not either/or. In fact I've seen it, so I know it's possible.

Wining and dining are indicators that he is financially secure, willing to spend time getting to know her, able to be affectionate and conversant. I don't equate that with Bad Boys at all.

In my book, Bad Boys are abusive and self-centered, borrow money from women, make excuses and blame others for their shortcomings, have addictions, ignore and neglect women, and are inconsiderate. That doesn't really sound like a dude I want to spend time with, no matter how much her pursues! LOL