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Originally Posted by Remark
Originally Posted by apples123
You are blaming your wife for the way she feels.

Apples,

Huh? I realize I can't change that feeling of hers even though I've tried to help assuage that feeling for many years. That feeling isn't going to change, she said. And I believe her. No blame. Just sadness because I know I am responsible for it.

Thanks, Remark

You stated that it "should not be either/or" which implies that JD2D is wrong for feeling the way she does. That is disrespectful.

Have you re-read the chapter on disrespectful judgements this month?

You should continue to study.

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Originally Posted by Remark
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Remark
Quote
Okay, so answer me, Remark - do you think there's any chance your wife would enjoy having your family come to visit?

Markos,

No, she probably wouldn't.

Then don't ask her how she would feel about it - you already know that she is not enthusiastic about it. Asking her how she feels about it is just going to bother her.

Quote
They are family though, and they love and support me emotionally.

If you want to pick your family over your marriage then I would say stop even having contact with JustDaytoDay. Just get a quick divorce and have done with it.

Nobody can make a marriage work if they pick their family over their marriage.

Markos,

I understand that concept. I'm not picking family over JD2D. I'm sorry I mentioned family. But, there are things in our situation that I can't live by. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. And I just don't believe it is a matter of me not cleaving. There is more to it than that.

Thanks, Remark

Remark,

This program won't work and your marriage can't be saved if you continue to express disrespect for your wife's viewpoint like this. Any time you argue that you are right and she is wrong, you are being disrespectful.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Markos,

OK, I'll work on my skills are accepting her position on whatever the issue, and then decide if I can live with that or not. If I can't I politely say, "that doesn't work for me, can we discuss?" and go from there. That's what you mean, right?

Thanks,
Remark

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Mark,

Let's try it this way...

If my husband really loves something or someone, and that relationship causes pain or negative feelings, or discomfort, or negative triggers for me...

Then as his wife, I tell him that his association with that person or thing feels horrible for me and leaves me feeling insecure and unsafe...

What do you think my husband should decide to do about those relationships or activities if he wants to be loving, caring, honorable and protective? What could he do to save me from the reminders and fear, and help me feel safe?

Last edited by DidntQuit; 09/03/15 10:53 AM. Reason: clarified.
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Originally Posted by Remark
Markos,

OK, I'll work on my skills are accepting her position on whatever the issue, and then decide if I can live with that or not. If I can't I politely say, "that doesn't work for me, can we discuss?" and go from there. That's what you mean, right?

Thanks,
Remark

No, Remark, don't tell her that her "no" doesn't work for you or that her viewpoint doesn't work for you.

In this case don't even ask her because you know ahead of time it is not something she will enjoy. Look for things she will enjoy and don't express disrespect at her for not accepting the things you want to do (like have your family visit). She doesn't want to do that and she's not wrong or bad for feeling that way.

Here is what Dr. Harley told me about how to handle it when Prisca isn't enthusiastic about something I wanted to do:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
markos:

When you make a request, and your wife declines, the next step is to negotiate with her, not to tell her that your feelings have been hurt. Under what conditions would she be willing? If you can't think of any right away, withdraw the request.

By telling your wife that your feelings were hurt, although it's an accurate description of your reaction, it's also a way to make her feel guilty for declining your request. Besides, it should be recognized that if a request is declined, and you feel hurt, you must be under the illusion that if she really cared about you, she would do whatever you request. That's an illusion, not a fact. A caring wife has the right to decline requests. A caring husband accepts it because he realizes that he would have been gaining at her expense if she had agreed.

Again, the step to take after declining your request is to negotiate or withdraw it.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Don't tell her "that doesn't work for me." Don't ask her to discuss it. She doesn't want to do it, she wouldn't enjoy that, so withdraw the request and come up with something she would enjoy. It won't involve your parents, so come up with a request that doesn't involve that.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Remark; can I make a suggestion? When you are trying to POJA something you need to start at the beginning, not in the middle. That means that if you are trying to set up a day out, you do not start by asking your wife if she would like to join a boating trip that you have already planned. You ask her first whether she has some free time and if she does, then whether she would spend it with you if you can both think of something you would enjoy doing.

Make your suggestions be things that she would like not things you would like. Let her come up with things you would like if she wishes to, she knows what they are.

I am married to a pleaser and I know how difficult navigating the POJA can be. A pleaser has a very hard time putting himself first. It does not come naturally. Then when it gets all too much, everything just boils over in a big steaming mess. You have to make it so safe that saying no is almost easier than saying yes; very gentle and super respectful.


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Pay close attention to the two parts I bolded in Dr. Harley's response. You are under the same illusion I was. And if you can't think of any conditions that your wife would jump for joy at, withdraw your request.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Didnt,

He should give up that one relationship or activity. I understand that.

Thanks,
Remark







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Originally Posted by living_well
Remark; can I make a suggestion? When you are trying to POJA something you need to start at the beginning, not in the middle. That means that if you are trying to set up a day out, you do not start by asking your wife if she would like to join a boating trip that you have already planned. You ask her first whether she has some free time and if she does, then whether she would spend it with you if you can both think of something you would enjoy doing.

Make your suggestions be things that she would like not things you would like. Let her come up with things you would like if she wishes to, she knows what they are.

I am married to a pleaser and I know how difficult navigating the POJA can be. A pleaser has a very hard time putting himself first. It does not come naturally. Then when it gets all too much, everything just boils over in a big steaming mess. You have to make it so safe that saying no is almost easier than saying yes; very gentle and super respectful.

living_well,

Thanks. That makes sense.

I think I did that. I think I mentioned about a month ago that there are three weekends left before Labor Day (including Labor Day), and I'd like to take the boat out and I invited her thoughts. We have done a Labor Day trip with 5-6 other families every year to the same lake in Branson, MO. She was involved in the earliest levels of those thoughts/plans, I think.

I am trying to be a better planner, and not be so last-minute, impromptu in all our activities.

I think both JD2D and I are pleasers by nature, BTW.

Thanks,
Remark





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Markos,

I read and re-read the bold parts, your last comments. That makes sense for functional couples.

I don't and haven't though, referenced my 'hurt feelings'. I'm simply to the point, where if she declines, I accept that and move on. Is that bad, given where we're at?

Thanks,
Remark



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Quote
I'm simply to the point, where if she declines, I accept that and move on.
But you haven't moved on. Your family is still in the picture.


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What to do with an Angry Husband

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Originally Posted by Remark
Markos,

I read and re-read the bold parts, your last comments. That makes sense for functional couples.

I don't and haven't though, referenced my 'hurt feelings'. I'm simply to the point, where if she declines, I accept that and move on. Is that bad, given where we're at?

Thanks,
Remark

Ignore the hurt feelings part and pay attention to what Dr. Harley directs men like you and me to do: if you make a request and she's not enthusiastic, withdraw the request unless you can come up with modification to the request that you think she would be enthusiastic about.

In other words:
* don't ask her about having your parents visit; she is not enthusiastic
* after you've asked her about having your parents visit, and she has indicated she is not enthusiastic, withdraw the request
* don't say that it shouldn't be this way and JD2D is making it that way - that's what you told us above and it's profoundly disrespectful to your wife!

Originally Posted by Remark
Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. And I just don't believe it is a matter of me not cleaving. There is more to it than that.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I'm simply to the point, where if she declines, I accept that and move on.
But you haven't moved on. Your family is still in the picture.

Prisca,

Let's leave the family out of it because I seem to be always bring them into the conversation, and I shouldn't.

Even if family was not in the picture, she said she'd divorce me for all my other warts. ( Toilet and van and boat and emotional affair, etc. )

Listening to the program everyday, I know not only what I am not doing, but what I am missing.

Thanks,
Remark


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Originally Posted by Remark
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I'm simply to the point, where if she declines, I accept that and move on.
But you haven't moved on. Your family is still in the picture.

Prisca,

Let's leave the family out of it because I seem to be always bring them into the conversation.

Even if family was not in the picture, she said she'd divorce me for all my other warts. ( Toilet and van and boat, and emotional affair, etc.)

Thanks,
Remark

Remark, you need to quit making this mistake about your family. It is a very real and present problem.

The way men save their marriages is by eliminating mistakes one at a time.

We have talked with you about this mistake many times but you continue to repeat it. If you want to save your marriage you will need to stop repeating it.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Remark
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I'm simply to the point, where if she declines, I accept that and move on.
But you haven't moved on. Your family is still in the picture.

Prisca,

Let's leave the family out of it because I seem to be always bring them into the conversation.

Even if family was not in the picture, she said she'd divorce me for all my other warts. ( Toilet and van and boat, and emotional affair, etc.)

Thanks,
Remark

Remark, you need to quit making this mistake about your family. It is a very real and present problem.

The way men save their marriages is by eliminating mistakes one at a time.

We have talked with you about this mistake many times but you continue to repeat it. If you want to save your marriage you will need to stop repeating it.

Markos,

Then let's work on the other mistakes first.

Thanks,
Remark




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Originally Posted by Remark
Markos,

Then let's work on the other mistakes first.

Thanks,
Remark

How about you take our advice and focus on the things that are important, like this?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Markos,

Then let's work on the other mistakes first.

Thanks,
Remark


Because we cant.
This is it.
The big one that your marriage will die on.
Even if you fixed every other problem on earth and became perfect- but refuse to address this. Your marriage would fail anyways.

Your family comes before your wife-period.

Why bother? There is nothing we can do for you.

Its your choice.


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Sep:2014
Divorced

"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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Remark your two big issues are disrespectful judgments and independent behavior. Your actions regarding your family involve both.

If you want your marriage to succeed, all disrespectful judgments and all independent behavior need to be eliminated. There's not really anything else to work on as long as these are present.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by Remark
I truly do and I do believe in Harley principles. I am ashamed of the 20 yrs of neglect that have hurt JD2D so much. I know how happy, delightful and loving, she can be from years back, before her hurt/pain. I seem to be the cause of her unhappiness.

Remark, this was a beautiful and loving description of your wife. Go with that. She is mother to your children. Can you visualize how lovely it would be if the two of you could enjoy your grandchildren together?

Originally Posted by Remark
Yes, I feel like a very steep, if not impossible, "hill to climb" stands in front of me.

It is true, I have not done a good or consistent job of logging entries in my log. I have more than three entries, but less than the 45-60 days since Steve and I talked about it. Most days, I don't even have much communication/contact with her. So, I don't have anything to log most days. And, when my last exchange with her was so unpleasant, I just don't have the backbone or whatever to engage or initiate even a conversation because inevitably, it will turn negative. (I know Dr H supports complaining, but there has to be a balanced with healthy EN's being met, right?) As lonely as I am, I feel less alone when NOT in her company, than I do when in her company, ( if that makes sense.)

Remark,
I can totally understand that you are apprehensive and not quite enthusiastic about having conversations with your estranged wife.
I do not even think that conversation between the two of you is a fruitful idea. Conversation tends to be pleasant when people have good will towards each other. And good will develops after love bank deposits have been made.

Do focus on making love bank deposits in other ways, that involve no or limited conversation. I listed these ideas in a previous posting.
Does her car need repairing or a check? Propose to do that for her and do not be discouraged if she says no.
Ask your son for ideas about what she could use or would enjoy. It would also help your son to learn how to be caring about other people, to help him in future relationships.

Think about someone you do not like yourself. How could such a person wiggle their way into your life? What should they do to lure to into trips/dates with them?

If I were to give you a million dollars if you could get your wife to go to Disneyland with you, how would you do it?

Could you give me 3 ideas that you could propose to your wife?
__

Remark, a close-knit family seems to be very important to you. I notice that you have a blind spot though. One day, your children will be in your position. They will want to visit grandpa and grandma, which will be you and JDTD, with their children.

Please realize the consequences of a divorce on your future family: dividing Christmas between the in-laws, your house and JDTD's house, having awkward family functions, etc.

A close-knit future family is one of the positive effects of the worthy cause of reconciliation with JDTD.

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A radio fragment that might help you, the difference between resentment type A and B is explained by Dr. H.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3589

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