I read it as grace feeling that mane's wife sounds like a renter in her statement.

If she does sound like a renter, then that's as it should be after an affair. Dr H says somewhere that a BS often adopts a renter's mentality in the immediate aftermath of an affair, and rightly so. He or she will not become a buyer again until and unless a new marriage of love and protection, with cast-iron EPs, is in evidence.

[quote=indiegirl]
[quote=graceful2b]I am worried a bit about this statement. I hope you are saying or trying to access the damages to your wife. Or is this a 'renters' statement? Dr Harley talks about Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

I really can't make sense of this statement. Not even a little bit. Do you mean 'assess'? His quote doesn�t even refer to an assessment of damage? Your meaning is really unclear. He is reporting factually something his wife said about giving the plan a go and saying he is relieved to have a shot. That is just a factual account of events. How that can be at all related to the buyer, renter or freeloader concept is a bit of a mystery. What are you saying?[quote]

Indiegirl,
Yes, assess. The quote does not stand alone. Helps to read the entire message. I was asking for clarification and discussing BRF. A Renter perspective can help justify the AP and diminish the BS.

Sugarcane,
Yes, the BS shifts to a Renter too for a period of time. Dr Harley talks about all romantic relationships pass thru the phase but can't be sustained. Need to both become Buyers.

Mane,
I am really impressed and encouraged with your humility and toil so far. I suppose I am asking you these things because you know things get really hard if /when you have the chance to live together again with your wife and children. And many AP's then start to say "can't you just get over it already" but this will simply leave your wife in a negative loop. I know from experience.

I see. We haven't seen any justifications from him but you are just telling him not to do it when things get hard.

A fair warning. Thanks for clarifying.

Yep - he'll have to prime the pump and make it safe for her to be a Buyer again by adopting the Buyers' Agreement himself for awhile.

Plus Mane talked about making sacrifices for his wife and marriage. I understand this statement is related to his efforts to help the healing along. But for the long haul MB teaches us to successfully negotiate and follow the POJA. Hopefully your work here on MB will help both become Buyers to sustain a romantic relationship for the long haul. Eventually Mane you will read HNHN book and can make this important shift. I am likely getting ahead just want you to know that making sacrifices for the short haul habitually does not help you sustain romance for the long haul.

You don't see it until you're in. The lovebank deposits are made quite frequently with OS friends. Think about it, simply saying 'hi, how's your day?' is meeting an affection need.

And there are no lovebusters to cause withdrawals. OS friends don't need to negotiate like a proper couple do, so obviously they never fight. They do their own thing and are polite when they do not agree with each other. Or they just say stuff the other person wants to hear.

Over time the deposits mount up and there are no withdrawals. The bank fills up and one day it goes over that magic threshold line. When it does; all reason and sense is shut off. In a natural relationship you simply feel in love. But in a clandestine one, your conscience has to be shut off and you stop listening to sense.

Once in, you're in. This is why it is important to protect our LB's from OS friends. It truly is vital. Radical Honesty, in which your spouse is privy to everything happening in your life and all conversations with others, is the only real protection.

I'm not saying married people can't have OS friends. But you can't have a solo relationship and private conversations with one away from your husband/wife.

It's also important to have the honesty to say: "I'm starting to feel attracted to x", or "I am beginning to have a lot of contact with x". Rather than seeing this as a demonic thing which it is shameful to admit to, it is actually natural and practicing Radical Honesty with your spouse and avoidance of an attraction has to be done.



I agree wholeheartedly that sacrifice shouldn't become a habit. However short term sacrifice is fine, particularly so when it is a WS making JC to his BW. In fact I don't see how JC can be accomplished without a great deal of sacrifice. He was referring to the sacrifice of change and of course we all know changing the conditions which led to the A is vital.

Just wanted to note also, that HNHN isn't appropriate for a couple affected by infidelity. It sends a horrible message of justification to the WS and reads quite offensively to a BS.

Dr H has on a number of occasions warned infidelity couples off this book. The threat that a lack of needs can lead to affairs was only designed to be read by couples not affected by one.

Couples who are actually affected need a copy of Surviving An Affair.

Until much later on. Then HNHN is amazing.

Thanks, Grace and Indie, for your explanations.. I will keep all that in mind..

A few days ago I came back from my trip home..
My wife managed to meet with me 4 times, for a total of about 9 hours. Not a lot and surely not enough to do any good, but it was much more than I could expect and I thanked her for taking such big effort.
My wife struggled a lot to be sitting in front of me and most of the time our talks were not easy at all.. She says she does not want to know any more details about the A, but questions do often arise spontaneously and the answers are generally of the painful kind to hear. Add that in some cases (especially when the questioning becomes so pressing) it is difficult to put together the right words and the pain goes way up...

It was not easy to get through those conversations and my wife especially was in great distress at times, but still got through in most cases.

The day I left, she sent me an SMS that sounded quite optimistic (it was the first time in one month that she was charged with some positive energy) -surely not thanks to me, but thanks to the fact that over last week she has done a lot of things for herself, too, including the self healing course- but I was genuinely happy she felt that way and was quite optimistic, myself, that things can get better.

Now I'm here alone again since 4 days already, she is back to her parents' house and everything is going backwards: she says her pain is now twice worse than before because she is alone and sees again the grief her family is also going through and everything makes her hate me so much more.. plus, it is all amplified by the way everybody else feels and hates me -everything fully deserved.

Bottom line, she avoids talking to me. She writes me an email at night, I answer her the next morning, phone calls are a struggle, sms'es are sometimes a war bulletin...

I am not surprised and I do not blame her about the way she feels, but it really makes me afraid that the longer we are separated, the worse this will get.

I'm trying as hard as I can to show my affection and my good intentions from over here, I try to be gentle in all my ways, send flowers (real ones and in pictures with my emails), ecards,... and I can't even know how she feels about it, because the pain takes over everything.

I know the drill.. I shall give her time and have no expectations.. but still, separation does not help at all.

I'm also doing everything I can to move out of here fast, and she knows it, but the thing that it cannot be an immediate move sets huge uncertainties on everything.

So.. I'm a little low tonight..

While there is physical distance between the 2 of you recovery is going to be HARDER or dare I say it ON HOLD. You need to be doing EVERYTHING possible to change that circumstance if you want to save your marriage.
The roller coaster of emotions up and down, hopeful and low is here to stay for the near future . There is no easy path just walking thru the fire. Sorry you are low, find something constructive to fill your tank up so you can continue working towards the journey you are on.

I'm so sorry Mane.

Sorry because I know you would love to be closer to her if you could be - but that your INTENTIONS don't matter one whit.

You cannot recover apart. Even if you have really good intentions and are doing everything you can to move. That's the cold hard truth.

The lovebank is a stubborn, mindless, unreasonable thing. It only accepts deeds and presence it does not accept intentions and separation. If this goes on much longer you wont make it. You've already seen the effect.

You may have to work out financially; what is harder? Getting into some debt while out of work for a bit or getting a divorce (very expensive) and maintianing two households (more expensive still). It may very well come to having to look at it like that.

What would you do if you were made redundant suddenly? Giving up your marriage for a job can turn a bit farcical if they then get rid of you soon after. A job is not a lifetime commitment on either side so giving up a marriage for one is stupid.

There has never been a time better suited for brainstorming. I would speak to SH and work out a serious plan. Or better still Dr H, he is a genuis at finding solutions.

I know this is complicated by the fact your wife isn't going to support quitting.

What is it you do? What else can you do? What are you doing to find work? Help us help you to brainstorm.

I don't still see your BW's thread. When you speak to her, please tell her I asked about her, thanks.

His BW is Maggie2002.

Thanks, I looked twice and didn't see it. Even with my reading glasses!

I have not showed up in a few days.. things have been pretty static lately, the reason being as usual the thousands of miles that physically separate us..
But the most encouraging news is that we are continuing the talks with Steve H.

Now I definitely want to get out of K-stan as early as possible. I can't stand this place anymore, myself, and it just makes me nervous and uncomfortable to be here, but there are a few constraints that make it extremely difficult to move out quickly.

Indie,
these are the things that make it difficult:

The main problem is that I am considered as a permanent employee by my 'mother company' in Italy (I'm bound by a contract to them and assigned abroad on a temporary basis) and because of this I have a notice period of two months in case I quit.
It could be a bit quicker if they agreed to relocate me (which I actually requested them to do), but I'm facing some resistance with that, and, besides, there is no certainty whether they will assign me anywhere near home (which might be another serious setback..).
The best thing, then, is that I find a new job altogether and make a run for it, even if that meant to breach my contract and pay myself for my relocation expenses and the rest of the penalties.

[By the way, Maggie said she would be willing to join me and give our recovery a try, if I relocated]

Then, why don't I just pack up and leave, you might ask...

Well... to put it in a few words, because I (we) have nowhere to go to.

Over the years, we have collected a quantity of personal belongings (literally, tons of stuff), which we are moving around the world along with us, but we have no home, neither in Italy, nor in Poland, and right now we have not enough cash to buy an apartment to set up a base (and would still need a job to pay for the mortgage if we bought it now..).

To simply relocate temporarily and then move to a more stable place once I find an employment is not an easy solution for us, cause we want to prioritize our sons' stability (they have been shuffled around already too much and need to be in a single place now).

The result of this recipe is then to simply find a long term job (preferably in Europe), resign from my current position, relocate asap, settle all logistic aspects and then have Maggie and the boys join me.
The timescale of this operation is simply unacceptable, though.

Another alternative, discarded for the moment because not financially feasible: to agree with my company a fast relocation back to our head office in Italy. There, we would have no home and a low salary to pay for the bills, accommodation, childcare and everything else.. Maggie could try to find a job there, herself, but Italy is not really the place jobseekers wanna be in these times, so to speak, and in addition she's been out of the market for 5 years...
This could be ok as a temporary solution, but then again, we would rather give our boys some stability.

Maybe we're not able to look at the big picture now, but the situation is a bit complicated to us..

If anyone wants to join the brainstorming... doors are open!


Anyway, whatever happens, we have set a deadline to the end of June. After that the K-stan chapter shall be closed one way or another.

The end of June is a terribly long time to be apart and for this reason Maggie is trying to consider (or better: to digest) the option of coming back here for a short time. This way, we could let Filip (our first child) finish the school year, and prepare him for the move to a new place.

While I am thankful for her courage to try this, I know she is going to make an enormous effort and chances are that she will feel so badly here, so I do hope I'll find a job offer in the next couple of weeks, so she can be spared from having to do this.


If she had to come back here, though, I'm afraid there will be tons of triggers to give her a hard time...
If that happens, I want to be prepared how to deal with those situations correctly. What are the best things I can do to help her when she goes through those struggles?

I'd go for the Italian option. You can be together and you can review your next step together.

A low wage but an intact marriage is bound to be better financially than a divorce (still a very real prospect unless you both act) and ultimately supporting two homes. I'd look to sell your possessions for ready cash and start over slow. This has the added benefit of getting rid of all triggers from the old marriage and rebuilding a new life with completely new stuff.

If the wages are low in Italy then the cst of living is likely to be as well. Maggie could concentrate on the type of work that can be done online or remotely - perhaps interpreting? Most mothers like to do flexible work that can be done from home.

Leave that place now. Don't ask your wife to move back there, that would be torture for her.

Show her you are all in and will do everything and anything for her. Your lifestyle and possessions are not more important that your wife are they? If not, then prove it, your wife may say she disagrees with this but trust me, her heart will absolutely not disagree.

Anything else is an excuse honestly. If my WW quit her job, made her life completely about me and did everything possible to prove how sorry she is how could I possibly be mad at her?

Mane,

I will tell you from personal experience that your wife's anger is absolutely normal. Like your W, my husband had an A while overseas on assignment while I was here in the States waiting for the kids to finish the school year. Also like you, he continued the A when I moved overseas to be with him for another eight months. The devastation I felt cannot be described in words. To be betrayed while in a foreign country with no family, friends or anyone to lean on almost killed me. I left my DH as soon as I could get a flight back to the US, but my DH followed me immediately. He literally slept in the airport in a foreign country to get back to the US. Unlike you, he didn't pine for his POSOW. He immediately called her with me on the phone dumped her and threw himself into our M. He suffered greatly because I was spitting coals. I have never been an angry person but for about a year I put him through more anger than he had ever experienced. My DH made me his world and would hardly let me go anywhere without making sure I was safe. He quit his assignment immediately not knowing if he would have a job. We went through counseling with MB and in person. MB saved our M and my DH's undying commitment to me and our M. We are almost six years past DDay and my DH refuses to spend a night apart from me, except one and even then he kept me in constant contact.

Of course your W is angry. I can't even imagine if I would have just had his child and found out (with all of the hormones after pregnancy). There are some really good ppl on this site who helped me and my DH tremendously. One very good poster who helped me and my DH a lot is Gloveoil. I don't know if he still posts but you should search and find some of his old posts. He was a God send to us.

You can't even begin to imagine the pain your W is going through right now. You have to do EVERYTHING that you can, otherwise you are going to loose your W and some other man who is faithful will be helping her raise your children.

"for a while", Markos? Surely you meant that he needs to become a buyer permanently?

He means doing it alone for a while. Maggie does not need to join him in the buyer's agreement until she feels better about the offer on the table.