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Sorry for any distractions my post may have caused and have removed the post.


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Please be very careful about the advice that is posted on this forum by making sure it does not conflict with Dr. Harley's views. We ask for an extra level of caution and care due to the fragile state of marriages on this forum. Please contact the moderating staff if you have questions.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by SugarCane
No: MB would not seek his joint agreement on this. His not seeing OC is non-negotiable if your marriage is to survive.

Right! MB does not say you need joint agreement to NOT do something - only joint agreement to DO something. If you aren't both enthusiastic, doing it anyway will ultimately lead to the destruction of your marriage.

And you should not be enthusiastic about this. Over and over again Dr. Harley has emphasized that for a FWH to retain contact with an OC, even through an intermediary, will make it impossible to recover.


I know if he has contact with OW, we will never recover. I will never be able to trust that nothing would happen between them. He's told me he completely understands that and wouldn't expect me to think differently. I guess that's why I'm so confused by what our mutual friend said after her convo with him yesterday.


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A reminder to posters to please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders principles before posting on threads of people who are seeking help.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Dr Harley makes it very clear that the marriage has to come first and every step should be taken to avoid contact with the OC. Those links and quotes are in the stickied threads at the top of the forum.

I didn't even know that - there are two radio shows in this link:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2445081#Post2445081


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Originally Posted by markos
Don't ask him to look at her on Facebook - he needs to avoid contact with any memory of her, as do you. Neither one of you should take any action to try to find out what she is up to - it will prevent recovery of your marriage!


Ok, I will stop doing that. I do go on myself and look sometimes I guess I'm just curious. It's also to see if she has a new boyfriend yet...and secretly I go on to see if she's somehow suffering. I still harbor very harsh feelings towards her.


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Originally Posted by lilbit420
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by SugarCane
No: MB would not seek his joint agreement on this. His not seeing OC is non-negotiable if your marriage is to survive.

Right! MB does not say you need joint agreement to NOT do something - only joint agreement to DO something. If you aren't both enthusiastic, doing it anyway will ultimately lead to the destruction of your marriage.

And you should not be enthusiastic about this. Over and over again Dr. Harley has emphasized that for a FWH to retain contact with an OC, even through an intermediary, will make it impossible to recover.


I know if he has contact with OW, we will never recover. I will never be able to trust that nothing would happen between them. He's told me he completely understands that and wouldn't expect me to think differently. I guess that's why I'm so confused by what our mutual friend said after her convo with him yesterday.

I don't see any reason to put forth the effort to resolve the confusion over what the friend said - the friend's advice is terrible.

Does your husband have private conversations alone with this friend? And is she a she?


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by lilbit420
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by SugarCane
No: MB would not seek his joint agreement on this. His not seeing OC is non-negotiable if your marriage is to survive.

Right! MB does not say you need joint agreement to NOT do something - only joint agreement to DO something. If you aren't both enthusiastic, doing it anyway will ultimately lead to the destruction of your marriage.

And you should not be enthusiastic about this. Over and over again Dr. Harley has emphasized that for a FWH to retain contact with an OC, even through an intermediary, will make it impossible to recover.


I know if he has contact with OW, we will never recover. I will never be able to trust that nothing would happen between them. He's told me he completely understands that and wouldn't expect me to think differently. I guess that's why I'm so confused by what our mutual friend said after her convo with him yesterday.

I don't see any reason to put forth the effort to resolve the confusion over what the friend said - the friend's advice is terrible.

Does your husband have private conversations alone with this friend? And is she a she?


Yes, he works with her. But I'm also close with her and we take our kids out together a lot. I'm in no way worried about her at all with my husband, so that's not the issue. She was really trying to help yesterday and this all came up because she was asking if him and I separated if I thought he would still be involved with the baby on the way so she asked how involved he was with his other kids as kind of a sign of how involved he'd still be. The original issue was over him not feeling appreciated enough about an award he had won over the weekend.


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Sorry again. As I said before I've read and read a lot of his books. I have listen to almost every radio show for the last couple of months, I also listen to achieved shows, I have read all his principles and a lot of his articles and this is the first time I have hear this principle about not seeing the OC, but obviously it must be there and I just missed it. And I will do the job of finding that information, please do not focus on me.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by lilbit420
I'm currently pregnant and things between us have been on edge lately and we've been arguing a lot. We had been arguing since this weekend and yesterday he had one of our mutual friends that he works with talk with both me and him to try to gain some ground. It was beneficial. One of his complaints is in the middle of an argument I told him he's not a man (because of how he was treating his pregnant wife). The mutual friend told me that he was "crushed" that I would not trust him to be a father to OC and basically how could I say he's not a man but then expect him to not be in OC's life, since it wasn't her fault. This changed the entire argument for me, but I tried to stay away from it since it wasn't what the argument was about. I was crushed to hear someone else say this though. The mutual friend went on to tell me how even though I hate OW, I should let him be in OC's life since it's not the kids fault.

Just last week my husband sent me a text one day while I was at work after a doctors appt for our baby saying "I hope we have a girl, so we can piss this b*tch off" I told him I honestly hope we did too (we already have a boy and I want one of each and this is our last) and that he would have a "daddys little girl" to defend him when OC comes around one day.

As SugarCane said, STOP FIGHTING!

Telling him he's not a man is disrespectful - so apologize for having said it, and don't ever say anything like that again. Furthermore, Dr. Harley's recommendation is that you not dwell on mistakes of the past, so he should not keep bringing this back up. No more needs to be said other than it was disrespectful and it won't happen again.

He also shouldn't be making comments about pissing off the OW - again, that is bringing up his own mistake of the past. It needs to be buried and you guys need to get away from all reminders, and he shouldn't bring it up again, nor should you.

I would have you both end the friendship with this person who is encouraging contact with the OC - that spells disaster, 100%. It is dangerous, horrible advice, and for a person to be advising it, they are not your friend.

The reason for not seeing the OC has nothing to do with trust and nothing to do with whether your husband is "not a man" so these shouldn't even be brought up. It's enough that it would bother you terribly for him to have the contact. For you to recover, reminders of the affairs have to be eliminated.


thank you...we had a heart to heart last night and I apologized. My hormones have me on edge, but I know that is no excuse.

I never thought about his comment of the OW like that. Secretly it made me happy he wanted to see her suffer in some way (since I do too), but I understand she shouldn't even be a thought to either of us.

The friend is a co worker of his and her son and our son are close, so it will be very hard to cut her off. I don't think that is necessary, but if she brings it up again or keeps pushing contact then we will revisit it.

It just made me wonder if she took what he said differently, or if he really expressed to her that he wanted contact and was lying to me. That's why I'm questioning things now.


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Originally Posted by lilbit420
Yes, he works with her. But I'm also close with her and we take our kids out together a lot. I'm in no way worried about her at all with my husband, so that's not the issue.

I'm concerned - it sounds like he discusses your marital issues privately. That is a reason to be greatly concerned, and quite a bit worried! He is not taking extraordinary precautions to avoid another affair - he should not be discussing his personal life with women.

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The original issue was over him not feeling appreciated enough about an award he had won over the weekend.

There is a chapter in His Needs Her Needs on how he can get his emotional need for admiration met, but that will have to come after he starts doing admirable things like not discussing his marriage with other women.

Originally Posted by lilbit420
It just made me wonder if she took what he said differently, or if he really expressed to her that he wanted contact and was lying to me. That's why I'm questioning things now.

Do you see how negatively his private conversations with her have impacted your emotions? No husband should be having private conversations about his conflicts with his wife, with another woman - but especially not a husband who has already had one affair! He is another affair just waiting to happen.

Has he even read the Surviving an Affair book?


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Originally Posted by indiegirl
My thoughts are: Don't use DJ's like "not a man" - to address complaints. You aren't going to get anywhere with insults except encouraging him to bring in a third party to referee because one-on-one isn't safe.

Don't allow silly third parties to referee your fights - simply don't have them.

Certainly don't tell him to look up OW on FB. That's nuts.


thank you...I do realize my mistake now and apologized and promised not to say that again. My hormones have me all over the place, but I know it's not an excuse.


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Originally Posted by markos
I'm concerned - it sounds like he discusses your marital issues privately. That is a reason to be greatly concerned, and quite a bit worried! He is not taking extraordinary precautions to avoid another affair - he should not be discussing his personal life with women.

I know that he will not have another affair with her. I'm 110% positive of that. Mostly because he's in absolutely no way attracted to her. I was appreciative to have someone to talk to also to hear my side of what was going on, because sometimes when we argue we can go into circles with things.

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There is a chapter in His Needs Her Needs on how he can get his emotional need for admiration met, but that will have to come after he starts doing admirable things like not discussing his marriage with other women.

I don't think I've read that one all the way through, I will have to read that because it's a reoccurring complaint from him and I often don't see how I'm not meeting his admiration needs until he explains in depth to me and it seems too late.

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Do you see how negatively his private conversations with her have impacted your emotions? No husband should be having private conversations about his conflicts with his wife, with another woman - but especially not a husband who has already had one affair! He is another affair just waiting to happen.

I do see now how negatively his conversation with her impacted my emotions. And if it weren't for her telling me that he was "crushed I didn't trust him to be a father to OC", none of these thoughts would be going through my head. I appreciated her input and help up until she started talking about OC, which had nothing to do with the argument in the first place. I honestly don't mind him discussing some things with her because she's also been through infidelity (although she's divorced) and understands my side of it so a lot of the time she helps him to see something he may not understand from me. But on this one, she she compared raising her ex's previous kids to this situation and it's just not the same. For example his daughter from a previous relationship (not OC) I have no problem with and embrace her when she comes to visit since she lives so far away. I actually look forward to her spending time with our son this summer.

As far as an affair with with this co worker I'm in no way threatened by her because I know he is in absolutely no way attracted to her (he sometimes jokes how he feels bad for her because she's rather ugly and she says it...but she really is a nice person. he's shallow when it comes to appearance)

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Has he even read the Surviving an Affair book?


he has not


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Originally Posted by lilbit420
Originally Posted by markos
I'm concerned - it sounds like he discusses your marital issues privately. That is a reason to be greatly concerned, and quite a bit worried! He is not taking extraordinary precautions to avoid another affair - he should not be discussing his personal life with women.

I know that he will not have another affair with her. I'm 110% positive of that. Mostly because he's in absolutely no way attracted to her.

lilbit420 - people become attractive to each other when they make love bank deposits. And having conversations about personal issues makes love bank deposits. This is extremely dangerous. It's no protection that he's "not attracted to her," because that is completely changeable.

And he hasn't even read the book Surviving an Affair? I don't think there are a lot of chances for recovery here - he needs to be getting educated on how affairs happen, and taking extraordinary precautions, or you are in for a terrible emotional rollercoaster.

He is still in the road playing chicken. He is probably doing so with every woman he knows, including some that he finds more attractive.

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I was appreciative to have someone to talk to also to hear my side of what was going on, because sometimes when we argue we can go into circles with things.

lilbit, there is a program here on this site for learning how to stop arguing and actually resolve your conflicts. You don't need to be letting him take this terrible risk - Steve Harley once commented to me that I needed to "embark on a program of education" about Marriage Builders so I could put this information to work in my marriage. I think you guys need to do the same. He can't possibly be following the recovery program if he hasn't read the recovery program, and you guys need to read Love Busters and put it into practice - this is your manual for how to learn to stop arguing.

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Quote
There is a chapter in His Needs Her Needs on how he can get his emotional need for admiration met, but that will have to come after he starts doing admirable things like not discussing his marriage with other women.

I don't think I've read that one all the way through, I will have to read that because it's a reoccurring complaint from him and I often don't see how I'm not meeting his admiration needs until he explains in depth to me and it seems too late.

He should be the one to read it if he wants to get this need met. It is going to require action on his part. Dr. Harley usually counsels on this emotional need last, after all the others are taken care of, and there is an important reason for that.

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Quote
Do you see how negatively his private conversations with her have impacted your emotions? No husband should be having private conversations about his conflicts with his wife, with another woman - but especially not a husband who has already had one affair! He is another affair just waiting to happen.

I do see now how negatively his conversation with her impacted my emotions. And if it weren't for her telling me that he was "crushed I didn't trust him to be a father to OC", none of these thoughts would be going through my head.

He is telling her things that he does not say to you. That is at least one secret they held together for awhile that you were not privy to.

Openness and honesty is an emotional need - he should be providing radical honesty to his wife, not her.

Have you read this?
Complain about your spouse TO your spouse
More importantly, has your husband read it? He needs to step up to the plate here and start learning and doing these things.

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I honestly don't mind him discussing some things with her

Whether you mind or not, it is extremely dangerous. There are women who don't mind their husbands looking at porn, swinging with other women, getting drunk, taking drugs, or molesting their children - that doesn't mean it is a good idea! Dr. Harley would say it is ALWAYS a bad idea for married people to be having personal conversations with people of the opposite sex. Always.

Many times people don't mind their spouse doing something only because they don't realize how risky it is.

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because she's also been through infidelity (although she's divorced) and understands my side of it so a lot of the time she helps him to see something he may not understand from me.

We can teach you to do that yourself. Of course, it won't do a lot of good if he's not learning the Marriage Builders plan of recovery. Does he know what the Policy of Joint Agreement is? That will resolve most of your conflicts - he doesn't have to understand your feelings all the time, but he does have to agree to not do anything unless you are enthusiastic about it. You shouldn't have to debate your feelings with him or bring in a third party to make your case, if he's actually following the program.

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But on this one, she she compared raising her ex's previous kids to this situation and it's just not the same.

See what damage it did having her uneducated opinion interjected into your marital conflict?\

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As far as an affair with with this co worker I'm in no way threatened by her

Almost all affairs happen with someone who the spouse is in now way threatened by.

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because I know he is in absolutely no way attracted to her (he sometimes jokes how he feels bad for her because she's rather ugly and she says it...but she really is a nice person. he's shallow when it comes to appearance)

Have you ever read that people affair down? Most affairs happen with unattractive people. Because they have fun together, have personal conversations together, make love bank deposits, and fall in love.

Quote
Quote
Has he even read the Surviving an Affair book?


he has not

When is he going to, and how long are you going to let him drag his feet on it?


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Originally Posted by lilbit420
She was really trying to help yesterday and this all came up because she was asking if him and I separated if I thought he would still be involved with the baby on the way so she asked how involved he was with his other kids as kind of a sign of how involved he'd still be.
I can't tell you how horrified to hear this report of their conversation. This is really frightening.

As markos said, your H should not be talking to her about marital (or extra-marital) issues at all; really he should not have any conversations about any subject that is either deep, or the conversation lengthy. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Have you read how Sue became involved with Greg, over being on the committee to restore the lake in their community? Their conversations were not deep or personal at first, but they bonded over a shared issue. Conversation satisfies ENs on a level that most of us do not realise. And haven't you ever read the many stories on this forum about WH having affairs with women who not their typical crush - who are overweight and unattractive, with missing teeth and numerous piercings?

Indeed, your H has already had an affair; how did he become involved with OW? Did they just jump into bed together, or did they talk a few times first?

And as for this co-worker dispassionately discussing the terrible prospect that you and your H might split up�I'd be so boiling mad if I heard that any woman had EVER discussed such a thing with my H.

I don't think you have any idea how serious a problem that relationship already is for your marriage.

lilbit, I'm sorry to say that I think you need to learn a lot more about MB. You argue with your H, you check OW's FB, you haven't put the affair to rest and your H talks about OC with another woman. How did she even learn about OC, if he is so ashamed to have people know about her?

I think your marriage is really in trouble and I suggest you read ALL the materials available free on this website, as well as the book Surviving an Affair, and that you listen to the radio show every day without fail.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by lilbit420
She was really trying to help yesterday and this all came up because she was asking if him and I separated if I thought he would still be involved with the baby on the way so she asked how involved he was with his other kids as kind of a sign of how involved he'd still be.
I can't tell you how horrified to hear this report of their conversation. This is really frightening.

As markos said, your H should not be talking to her about marital (or extra-marital) issues at all; really he should not have any conversations about any subject that is either deep, or the conversation lengthy. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Have you read how Sue became involved with Greg, over being on the committee to restore the lake in their community? Their conversations were not deep or personal at first, but they bonded over a shared issue. Conversation satisfies ENs on a level that most of us do not realise. And haven't you ever read the many stories on this forum about WH having affairs with women who not their typical crush - who are overweight and unattractive, with missing teeth and numerous piercings?

Indeed, your H has already had an affair; how did he become involved with OW? Did they just jump into bed together, or did they talk a few times first?

And as for this co-worker dispassionately discussing the terrible prospect that you and your H might split up�I'd be so boiling mad if I heard that any woman had EVER discussed such a thing with my H.

I don't think you have any idea how serious a problem that relationship already is for your marriage.

lilbit, I'm sorry to say that I think you need to learn a lot more about MB. You argue with your H, you check OW's FB, you haven't put the affair to rest and your H talks about OC with another woman. How did she even learn about OC, if he is so ashamed to have people know about her?

I think your marriage is really in trouble and I suggest you read ALL the materials available free on this website, as well as the book Surviving an Affair, and that you listen to the radio show every day without fail.


thank you for opening my eyes to some things I didn't really see...I need to do more reading because I didn't realize all this. I never thought of her as any type of competition or threat, but now reading what others are saying and what I have read of MB so far, I see she could be.

Other than checking her FB...I thought I had put the affair to rest. We hadn't talked about it since we had to disown my MIL for contacting OW until the co-worker brought it up. She didn't know he didn't have contact with OC until yesterday, but knew of OC because she has told him how her ex husband cheated on her and before their marriage and after their divorce went on to have a lot more kids.

As far as his affair yes he did just jump in the bed with her...well actually closet. It started in college, she was the girl that wanted to sleep with anyone's boyfriend she could. Their first encounter was in a closet at a party where she gave him oral sex...no conversations first. He then used her for that on and off for almost 8 years.


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thank you...I need to review a lot of MB principals. I never realized how much of a danger to my marriage this could be. I don't know why.


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Originally Posted by lilbit420
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by lilbit420
She was really trying to help yesterday and this all came up because she was asking if him and I separated if I thought he would still be involved with the baby on the way so she asked how involved he was with his other kids as kind of a sign of how involved he'd still be.
I can't tell you how horrified to hear this report of their conversation. This is really frightening.

As markos said, your H should not be talking to her about marital (or extra-marital) issues at all; really he should not have any conversations about any subject that is either deep, or the conversation lengthy. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Have you read how Sue became involved with Greg, over being on the committee to restore the lake in their community? Their conversations were not deep or personal at first, but they bonded over a shared issue. Conversation satisfies ENs on a level that most of us do not realise. And haven't you ever read the many stories on this forum about WH having affairs with women who not their typical crush - who are overweight and unattractive, with missing teeth and numerous piercings?

Indeed, your H has already had an affair; how did he become involved with OW? Did they just jump into bed together, or did they talk a few times first?

And as for this co-worker dispassionately discussing the terrible prospect that you and your H might split up�I'd be so boiling mad if I heard that any woman had EVER discussed such a thing with my H.

I don't think you have any idea how serious a problem that relationship already is for your marriage.

lilbit, I'm sorry to say that I think you need to learn a lot more about MB. You argue with your H, you check OW's FB, you haven't put the affair to rest and your H talks about OC with another woman. How did she even learn about OC, if he is so ashamed to have people know about her?

I think your marriage is really in trouble and I suggest you read ALL the materials available free on this website, as well as the book Surviving an Affair, and that you listen to the radio show every day without fail.


thank you for opening my eyes to some things I didn't really see...I need to do more reading because I didn't realize all this. I never thought of her as any type of competition or threat, but now reading what others are saying and what I have read of MB so far, I see she could be.

I would suggest reading these:

How do Affairs Begin?

Anatomy of Adultery

chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs

Quote
She didn't know he didn't have contact with OC until yesterday, but knew of OC because she has told him how her ex husband cheated on her and before their marriage and after their divorce went on to have a lot more kids.

When a woman comes to him giving personal details about his life, that doesn't mean he should respond by giving personal details about his life. Instead, he should end the conversation, and tell you about it.


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Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by lilbit420
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by lilbit420
She was really trying to help yesterday and this all came up because she was asking if him and I separated if I thought he would still be involved with the baby on the way so she asked how involved he was with his other kids as kind of a sign of how involved he'd still be.
I can't tell you how horrified to hear this report of their conversation. This is really frightening.

As markos said, your H should not be talking to her about marital (or extra-marital) issues at all; really he should not have any conversations about any subject that is either deep, or the conversation lengthy. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Have you read how Sue became involved with Greg, over being on the committee to restore the lake in their community? Their conversations were not deep or personal at first, but they bonded over a shared issue. Conversation satisfies ENs on a level that most of us do not realise. And haven't you ever read the many stories on this forum about WH having affairs with women who not their typical crush - who are overweight and unattractive, with missing teeth and numerous piercings?

Indeed, your H has already had an affair; how did he become involved with OW? Did they just jump into bed together, or did they talk a few times first?

And as for this co-worker dispassionately discussing the terrible prospect that you and your H might split up�I'd be so boiling mad if I heard that any woman had EVER discussed such a thing with my H.

I don't think you have any idea how serious a problem that relationship already is for your marriage.

lilbit, I'm sorry to say that I think you need to learn a lot more about MB. You argue with your H, you check OW's FB, you haven't put the affair to rest and your H talks about OC with another woman. How did she even learn about OC, if he is so ashamed to have people know about her?

I think your marriage is really in trouble and I suggest you read ALL the materials available free on this website, as well as the book Surviving an Affair, and that you listen to the radio show every day without fail.


thank you for opening my eyes to some things I didn't really see...I need to do more reading because I didn't realize all this. I never thought of her as any type of competition or threat, but now reading what others are saying and what I have read of MB so far, I see she could be.

I would suggest reading these:

How do Affairs Begin?

Anatomy of Adultery

chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs

Quote
She didn't know he didn't have contact with OC until yesterday, but knew of OC because she has told him how her ex husband cheated on her and before their marriage and after their divorce went on to have a lot more kids.

When a woman comes to him giving personal details about his life, that doesn't mean he should respond by giving personal details about his life. Instead, he should end the conversation, and tell you about it.


thank you so much...I'm going to read those now


I am BS
D day was May 23, 2013
NC with OC
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Originally Posted by lilbit420
thank you...I need to review a lot of MB principals. I never realized how much of a danger to my marriage this could be. I don't know why.

You are not alone. 60% of marriages will experience at least one affair. One main reason for it is that most people don't know these things. Only 20% of marriages stay together for life and are happy and fulfilling - mostly we live in a bad marriage culture.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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