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(12 years together total) and a VERY cold, angry, bitter, drawn-out divorce (took a year) to being friends in order to progress back to a loving relationship?

This is where I am with my ex-husband. LONG story and I will be more than happy to answer any and all questions in order to receive God's guidance thru others. Trust me when I say there have been MAJOR LB's, DJ's & AO's all over the place with us both over the past 3 years (the year before separation, the year of separation and divorced now 13 months).

An 'event' this weekend sparked us to see each other after almost a year. For the past 18 months, very few phone calls and mostly text exchanges were how we connected every couple of months for divorce-related items we still are dealing with.

I have prayed non-stop 24/7 for the past 3 years to bring him back into my life. I love this man more than life itself. God answered my prayer yesterday in the most absolutely, stunning, more than I could have ever hoped for, knocked me on my butt way. This IS a changed man! An atheist that told me he has even tried going to church a couple of times alone...no one pushing him! Lessons he needed to learn, he IS learning and I swore that God was wasting His time. He used to NEVER admit guilt or wrong-doing....NEVER apologized for anything. Last night, he did those things and MEANT it!!! He now understands that he can do no one any good until he gets his life together, likes and loves himself. He said that we can be friends, take things one day at a time and slow. I agreed but it's killing me inside.

I don't want to blow this. It's TOO IMPORTANT to me and I DO FEEL that God HAS answered my prayer, but it seems so complicated. I don't know how to act because I was his wife, and still am in my heart. I don't know what to do, what to say, or not say. Our 2 hour discussion last night was fairly deep...I laid out my heart and my soul and we both agree that we need to have a longer deeper discussion in order to clear the past and start fresh. He is VERY intent on what he thinks/feels. It truly DOES take an act of God to make him see/understand/feel things. He believes that he has made little to no progress in his 'finding himself'. He can't see what others do. I want to help him understand. Does any of this make sense? I feel so lost and confused and so scared of messing up and losing him again that I can't think straight. I don't want to push or make him think that I am.

Yes, at the end of the discussion, he suddenly reached over, grabbed me and kissed me like whoa! smile He said...you have a choice...leave now or stay the night. He initiated SF, wrapped me in his arms like he used to and we fell asleep entwined all night. I try to move away, he clings that much harder. Made a noise and I said Huh? He said....contentment. He kissed me bye in the morning just like he used to. No, it wasn't just for SF. We have texted a few times today and he called me before he went to sleep. He said that will continue. We build the friendship by talking. It seems to be a 2 steps forward, 1 step back dance. I don't dance well. frown

Help!

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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Also, what actions as he shown you that he's changed? Is he the one who had an affair? What EPs is he willing to put in place?

Have both of you taken anger management?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Just a couple of observations:

First, it appears you were not in Plan B.
If you were in Plan B, he would have a letter stating what he must do in order to re-establish a relationship with you.

So, apparently you're in Plan C and in your post, he expresses that he hasn't fixed much of his personal issues....
So where does that leave you? Maybe 2 steps ahead of the group on the SAA forum.

If you were willing to settle for crumbs, don't complain down the road that you don't have a loaf of bread.

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Also, what actions as he shown you that he's changed? Is he the one who had an affair? What EPs is he willing to put in place?

Have both of you taken anger management?

Instead of saying 'I'm an alcoholic and I don't care' he is now saying 'I'm an alcoholic and I need help' and he's seeking it all on his own. He is taking responsibility and has chosen on his own to change. While he is letting me support him...sharing with me what is going on and such...he is not allowing me to 'do' anything. Hard to explain. He is adamant..rightfully so in my opinion...in doing this by himself FOR himself.

He had 2 emotional internet affairs. He used to say....'I did nothing wrong because there was nothing physical.' He now understands that he WAS wrong and has apologized.

He has not been with (SF), dated nor talked to any woman in a 'relationship' way the past 3 years. He has spent the last 15 months in deep reflection of his life and is trying to 'find himself, like himself and love himself'. He had a very abuse childhood, has been on his own since he was 14, led a wild (alcohol/drugs) lifestyle for many years while living in Europe. In my eyes, he is finally growing up and facing his issues as to why he chose to live like he did. It's pretty ugly and hard for him to face, but he is doing it finally.

The main EP's I see for now: No more going to bars, no more liquor in his apartment. He only gets on his work computer to work. He no longer plays his RP games (which is where he met the women) nor looks at porn on his computer. He basically has no time. He works 12-14 hour days almost 7 days a week, either at work or from his home office. He is a very responsible man where work is concerned. It has basically consumed his life for the past 2 years. That alone, keeps him out of trouble....for the most part. He is in an upper management position and takes his responsibility beyond necessity.

He has taken anger management. He told me that he can NOT afford to be angry and avoids situations that could put him in that kind of position. He was very serious when he told me that he can never be out of control ever again. It's that important to him.

By nature, I'm not an angry person. My anger came from frustration and hurt. Now that he has changed and we can actually talk, it just doesn't happen.


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Is he in AA? Does he have a sponsor? Have you been to AlAnon?



FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Just a couple of observations:

First, it appears you were not in Plan B.
If you were in Plan B, he would have a letter stating what he must do in order to re-establish a relationship with you.

So, apparently you're in Plan C and in your post, he expresses that he hasn't fixed much of his personal issues....
So where does that leave you? Maybe 2 steps ahead of the group on the SAA forum.

If you were willing to settle for crumbs, don't complain down the road that you don't have a loaf of bread.

No, I did not go into Plan B. HE was unknowingly in Plan B as far as no contact (He doesn't know about MB). He had absolutely NO INTENTION of ever having anything to do with me ever again (due to the fact that I stopped enabling his drinking problem). Unfortunately for him (at that time), circumstances (that we are still dealing with) forced him to interact with me. I'm the one that prayed every day for God to heal him and bring us back together.

What I said was the he HAS fixed, or is in the process of fixing, a lot of his issues, in some surprising ways (church? and he's a proclaimed Atheist?). What I said is that HE doesn't see/think that he has made as much progress as other can see.

He sends me a text during the day letting me know how his day is going and wishing me a good day. He sends me a text every evening to let me know he's home. He calls me every night before bed. Not only does he work a lot of hours in a day, I also work 12 hours a day. We have little time, but we try to make the most of it. He said that we are very good friends status right now and working on/towards a new and better relationship for us....forgetting the past, learning from our mistakes.

We are both willing and striving for Plan R....recovery.

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is he in AA? Does he have a sponsor? Have you been to AlAnon?

No he isn't in AA. He is doing this all on his own. He's the type of man that once his mind is made up about something, it's VERY hard to sway him. He has decided to do this, and he will succeed. He is in counseling.

I have not been. I have a internet support group.

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Does he drink at all?


FWW/BW (me)
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2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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nope

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Originally Posted by stilltryingx2
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Also, what actions as he shown you that he's changed? Is he the one who had an affair? What EPs is he willing to put in place?

Have both of you taken anger management?

Instead of saying 'I'm an alcoholic and I don't care' he is now saying 'I'm an alcoholic and I need help' and he's seeking it all on his own.

Well, this is good. The first step is to acknowledge that one is powerless over alcohol. Is he admitting that he is powerless or is he saying "I dont need a program?"

Originally Posted by stilltryingx2
He is taking responsibility and has chosen on his own to change. While he is letting me support him...sharing with me what is going on and such...he is not allowing me to 'do' anything. Hard to explain. He is adamant..rightfully so in my opinion...in doing this by himself FOR himself.

He had 2 emotional internet affairs. He used to say....'I did nothing wrong because there was nothing physical.' He now understands that he WAS wrong and has apologized.

He has not been with (SF), dated nor talked to any woman in a 'relationship' way the past 3 years.

You dont know this with certainty, absent a polygraph.

Originally Posted by stilltryingx2
He has spent the last 15 months in deep reflection of his life and is trying to 'find himself, like himself and love himself'. He had a very abuse childhood, has been on his own since he was 14, led a wild (alcohol/drugs) lifestyle for many years while living in Europe. In my eyes, he is finally growing up and facing his issues as to why he chose to live like he did. It's pretty ugly and hard for him to face, but he is doing it finally.

The main EP's I see for now: No more going to bars, no more liquor in his apartment. He only gets on his work computer to work. He no longer plays his RP games (which is where he met the women) nor looks at porn on his computer. He basically has no time. He works 12-14 hour days almost 7 days a week, either at work or from his home office. He is a very responsible man where work is concerned. It has basically consumed his life for the past 2 years. That alone, keeps him out of trouble....for the most part. He is in an upper management position and takes his responsibility beyond necessity.

He has taken anger management. He told me that he can NOT afford to be angry and avoids situations that could put him in that kind of position. He was very serious when he told me that he can never be out of control ever again. It's that important to him.

By nature, I'm not an angry person. My anger came from frustration and hurt. Now that he has changed and we can actually talk, it just doesn't happen.

Regarding the anger, one approach to anger management is to avoid situations which make you lose control of your anger. That certainly works. It is always better to "walk away."

However, Dr. Harley has discussed this on his Radio Show and he has the approach that a person should be able to be in the most DIFFICULT challenging environment and still remain calm. It is a matter of retraining ourselves to be calm.

We need to change our brain to calm under distress rather than get angry (and temporarily insane).

It seems that your ex has taken the first approach to anger management based on your post.

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Originally Posted by stilltryingx2
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is he in AA? Does he have a sponsor? Have you been to AlAnon?

No he isn't in AA. He is doing this all on his own. He's the type of man that once his mind is made up about something, it's VERY hard to sway him. He has decided to do this, and he will succeed. He is in counseling.

I have not been. I have a internet support group.

Well, this works for some.
However the first step is to acknowledge that one is powerless over alcohol.

I have watched my MIL try to battle alcohol for the 10 years I was married to her daughter.
She would maintain sobriety for up to a few months, then get drunk and end up in Intensive Care.
She is a very kind woman, but to this day she does not consider herself to be on the same level at those people that attend AA meetings.
Despite being encouraged to attend AA meetings by counselors (court ordered) or family members, she maintains that she is not like them. She feels she can control her drinking.

I also remember a friend, now deceased.
He was a heavy drinker....and he had a "come to Jesus moment" when he was drinking one night and realized that his wife would throw him out if he was out on the town, so he stumbled into a church revival meeting (with the intent of deceiving her and telling her that he went to church), and then the preacher said "It's time to stop playing games with God!"

Now, my friend was in the back, drunk and just acting as a spectator when he saw the preachers eyes look directly at him and a heavy weight in his heart.

He thought he was playing games with his wife, but he was really trying to play games with God. He started attending AA meetings and later surrendered his life to Christ.

He was an old man when I knew him, but he continued to attend AA meetings even though he had been sober for years. he had a passion for speaking against drinking and telling of the love of God.

But he never claimed he was doing it all on his own. He was the first to give God the credit.

I mention my late friend because that is a trait I have noticed of most recovering alcoholics: They dont claim that they do it on their own (as your ex does).

My MIL, like your ex, claims to do it on her own. She is above those people in AA...

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Originally Posted by stilltryingx2
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Just a couple of observations:

First, it appears you were not in Plan B.
If you were in Plan B, he would have a letter stating what he must do in order to re-establish a relationship with you.

So, apparently you're in Plan C and in your post, he expresses that he hasn't fixed much of his personal issues....
So where does that leave you? Maybe 2 steps ahead of the group on the SAA forum.

If you were willing to settle for crumbs, don't complain down the road that you don't have a loaf of bread.

No, I did not go into Plan B. HE was unknowingly in Plan B as far as no contact (He doesn't know about MB). He had absolutely NO INTENTION of ever having anything to do with me ever again (due to the fact that I stopped enabling his drinking problem). Unfortunately for him (at that time), circumstances (that we are still dealing with) forced him to interact with me. I'm the one that prayed every day for God to heal him and bring us back together.

What I said was the he HAS fixed, or is in the process of fixing, a lot of his issues, in some surprising ways (church? and he's a proclaimed Atheist?). What I said is that HE doesn't see/think that he has made as much progress as other can see.

He sends me a text during the day letting me know how his day is going and wishing me a good day. He sends me a text every evening to let me know he's home. He calls me every night before bed. Not only does he work a lot of hours in a day, I also work 12 hours a day. We have little time, but we try to make the most of it. He said that we are very good friends status right now and working on/towards a new and better relationship for us....forgetting the past, learning from our mistakes.

We are both willing and striving for Plan R....recovery.

I encourage you to write to Dr. Harley and give him a brief summation of the reasons why you divorced (the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth), and where you are today.

Your posts seem to be vague and not detailed.
You posted that you reconnected with him the other day; yet now he is texting you regularly to let you know when he is home?
He said you are good friends and working towards recovery?

These are all red flags because it seems that he is driving the recovery bus.

If you want the 'plan r', you can find that in Surviving an Affair and by writing to Dr. Harley for guidance. This is not Plan R, and I don't think Dr. Harley would even encourage a relationship with him so long as there are alcoholism or addiction issues.

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Quote
Well, this is good. The first step is to acknowledge that one is powerless over alcohol. Is he admitting that he is powerless or is he saying "I dont need a program?"

He is saying that he is done with the alcohol controlling his life and it's time to take back his power.

Quote
You dont know this with certainty, absent a polygraph.

True...to a point. I know from his family...who would not hesitate to let me know in order to hurt me...due to them believing his lies. They are now being informed of the truth of our marriage/divorce. I know from his friends who are his neighbors. They are who he hangs around/works with.

Quote
Regarding the anger, one approach to anger management is to avoid situations which make you lose control of your anger. That certainly works. It is always better to "walk away."

This is what he does IF the situation can't be avoided.

Quote
However, Dr. Harley has discussed this on his Radio Show and he has the approach that a person should be able to be in the most DIFFICULT challenging environment and still remain calm. It is a matter of retraining ourselves to be calm.

We need to change our brain to calm under distress rather than get angry (and temporarily insane).

Work in progress smile

Quote
It seems that your ex has taken the first approach to anger management based on your post.

He has done a wonderful job, and I tell him how proud I am of him. Believe me....I could NOT believe the things he told me has has done on his own free will!! I had NO clue!!



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He doesn't think that he's above AA. He's in counseling to face his demons of his childhood abuse for one thing and to beat the alcoholism for another. Not everyone has to go to AA. Personal counseling is also good. The crux of his alcoholism is due to trying to drown/hide those demons and emotions that he couldn't face before.

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Originally Posted by stilltryingx2
He doesn't think that he's above AA. He's in counseling to face his demons of his childhood abuse for one thing and to beat the alcoholism for another. Not everyone has to go to AA. Personal counseling is also good. The crux of his alcoholism is due to trying to drown/hide those demons and emotions that he couldn't face before.


This was recently posted to someone in SAA forum. Some of the advice may apply to your situation:

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by still_kicking
She's also going to therapy partly to come to terms with her mother's death and her father's abandonment because the therapist says she feels intense shame and guilt. Can you please help me understand how or even if I should consider these historical facts in my present situation?

All of that is a distraction from real problems in her adult life. There is also a strong chance that she will experience serious depression from such a fruitless endeavor. The only person who benefits from this exercise is the "therapist's" bank account.

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
As a clinical psychologist who has been in direct therapy with 50,000 individuals and supervised over 600 counselors, I have not found that resolving issues of the past does much to help people deal with issues of the present. In most cases I've witnessed, it makes matters worse because it drags the most unpleasant experiences of the past into the present. I know that my perspective is in conflict with many therapists who are trained to treat the past before they can treat the present, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this approach is more effective than letting the past stay in the past. My personal experience is that dredging up the past actually increases the risk of suicide and other dangerous symptoms of mental disorders. Another important reason that I am opposed to bringing up issues of the past is that it wastes time. When you could be forming an effective plan and putting the plan into motion to resolve an issue of the present, you spend months, and even years focused on the past while the problems of the present keep building up, eventually burying the client.

In your situation, I strongly recommend that you not waste your time talking about the past. And don't try analyzing your husband. I know that his affair was a terrible shock to your system, and you want to feel closure. You have been terribly disillusioned by what he did, but the best you can do under the circumstances is look to the future instead of the past. Don't discuss the past with your husband or anyone else for a while, and see if you don't agree with me that it helps improve your relationship and it also causes you to be more relaxed. Focusing on the past causes depression, while focusing on the future with an eye to making it successful causes optimism and gives you energy.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley

here

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational.
here

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Contacting Dr. Harley...I may just do that. smile

My posts are not intentionally vague and I will provide as many details as anyone would like. I really want help and guidance.

We reconnected Monday morning, talked in person Monday night. He texts and calls as he knows that I need reassurance right now in order to re-gain trust....trust in the fact that he DOES honestly care and IS serious about 'us'. He burned me SO BAD with lie after lie, NOT respecting me or my feelings, etc. He is doing what he knows I need in order to feel secure and safe. Showing major remorse as well. When I poured out my heart and soul to him....of 3 years worth of feelings kept inside, HE made the decision that yes, we will try...very good friends, take things slowly as he is still in recovery for his personal self. He understands that his recovery has to come first in order for there to be an 'us' or it will all be for nothing because he will go back to his old ways. He is driving HIS recovery bus, but it does affect 'our' recovery process. I will ask Dr Harley, but I think that he would encourage 'taking things slow' while my ex is in his recovering from his alcoholism addiction issue....as long as his wanting to recover is sincere.

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Jedi...thank you for that post from SAA. I will read it.

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Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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