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Originally Posted by helpfordad
FTF, Real quick...

I feel HFM would say at the very least it kept her family and marriage in tact. That she has grown (yes, she has actually) in personal areas, 'her side of the street' stuff. Taught her boundaries, confidence, especially dealing with family and coworkers. Made her a better parent.

Generally -- at least when it agrees with her I guess -- liked that we POJAd things, that we did have EPs...healthier communication, less arguments, it taught me to eliminate AOs, meet her needs better...we actually enjoy our UA time most of the time.

If you can get into a calm conversation where you just ask her this question, and let her answer without you commenting on it in any way, it would be interesting to see her answer. Don't respond, don't argue even if she is wrong, just listen.

I may just do this myself this evening.

Are you on any kind of AD? You might need it if you are going to stick around for the next two years.


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Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

***edit****

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...

Dr Harley said to tell her "taking that job is like a knife in my heart. It hurts as bad as your affair." I think you should text her that AGAIN. Keep saying that.

Last edited by JustUss; 10/17/14 07:01 AM. Reason: removing quote

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I will.

I have to admit...I feel like I've got 2 camps here giving me conflicting advice.

Seems like I've had Markos and Prisca hammering ME on this, then there's Jedi, zibbles, raven...Melody?

Not a side-taking thing...just a difference of approaches it seems.

Am I getting 2 different MB interpretations here, or 2 sides of the same MB coin?


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

***edit****

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...

Dr Harley said to tell her "taking that job is like a knife in my heart. It hurts as bad as your affair." I think you should text her that AGAIN. Keep saying that.

He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Since that's what he has decided to do, it seems that time could be used wisely to win his wife back. After all, they were discussing the affair as late as last year this time. Many mistakes have been made.

Last edited by JustUss; 10/17/14 07:02 AM. Reason: removing quote

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I
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

***edit****

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...

Dr Harley said to tell her "taking that job is like a knife in my heart. It hurts as bad as your affair." I think you should text her that AGAIN. Keep saying that.

He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Since that's what he has decided to do, it seems that time could be used wisely to win his wife back. After all, they were discussing the affair as late as last year this time. Many mistakes have been made.

I agree, but Dr Harley also said he should tell her the above. If he does decide to stay 2 years and then divorce her, he should also tell her that.

I am hopeful he can persuade her to go through the course. She would benefit the MOST.




Last edited by JustUss; 10/17/14 07:03 AM. Reason: removing quote

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Originally Posted by FightTheFight
[
He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Now, I did not hear that. Dr Harley said he would not take a stand on divorce. So he doesn't recommend for or against, because he lets the person make that decision. He did not recommend AGAINST divorce. He did say that hfds idea about staying around for 2 years and then divorcing her is fine but he needs to tell her now that is his plan.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by helpfordad
I will.

I have to admit...I feel like I've got 2 camps here giving me conflicting advice.

Seems like I've had Markos and Prisca hammering ME on this, then there's Jedi, zibbles, raven...Melody?

Not a side-taking thing...just a difference of approaches it seems.

Am I getting 2 different MB interpretations here, or 2 sides of the same MB coin?

Dr Harley said if you want to stay until you son graduates and then divorce her that is just fine with him. He said to tell her you plan on doing that. He also said to tell her that taking that job is a "knife in your heart, just like the affair."

My advice is that you do your best to lure her into the MB program if you are going to stay around. Make the best use of your time. The MB program is in her best interest because she will end up with a happy, fulfilled marriage that way. I don't think it has been sold to her that way.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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hfd, I really need you to drive home another idea with her because it is pretty obvious that she believes Marriage Builders is only for you and it is only about affairs. I would be a broken record when you tell her that the Marriage Builders coaching is all about making sure that he starts showing care for her. We are concerned that she is not getting the care she needs and we can teach you how to care for each other.

Now, I don't mean it is "caring" to pretend like her taking this job by the OM is a good thing. Don't get confused about that. Let her know how devastated you are about it but then drop the subject.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
[
He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Now, I did not hear that. Dr Harley said he would not take a stand on divorce. So he doesn't recommend for or against, because he lets the person make that decision. He did not recommend AGAINST divorce. He did say that hfds idea about staying around for 2 years and then divorcing her is fine but he needs to tell her now that is his plan.

That's true. He did not recommend against divorce. Dr Harley did say that he did not agree with the posters on the forum that he should divorce her. But he did also say that they would not survive this affair.


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Originally Posted by FightTheFight
[

That's true. He did not recommend against divorce. Dr Harley did say that he did not agree with the posters on the forum that he should divorce her. But he did also say that they would not survive this affair.
\\

I believe his point was that we shouldn't tell him what to decide about divorce, that the decision should be made entirely by him. He wasn't saying he is against divorce, but against the forum telling him to get divorced.


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Originally Posted by helpfordad
I will.

I have to admit...I feel like I've got 2 camps here giving me conflicting advice.

Seems like I've had Markos and Prisca hammering ME on this, then there's Jedi, zibbles, raven...Melody?

Not a side-taking thing...just a difference of approaches it seems.

Am I getting 2 different MB interpretations here, or 2 sides of the same MB coin?
You should do what Dr. Harley tells you.


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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HFD,

The members here are very good, but they are not Dr. Harley and his staff.

If I were in your shoes I'd be ready to invest in at least two or three individual counseling sessions with him to discuss all your concerns about your W, the decision you made Not to move, and if, given all the above, it would be worth your while to invest in the online program given that your W may not participate. Maybe you could negotiate with him a reduced fee for the online program if you started and your W backed out. I don't think that emailing him with bits and pieces of your marital problems, and hearing his brief comments will suffice at this point. I think that YOU need in-depth individual counseling to start. I think YOU need his assessment of what you have been doing wrong up to this point (your decision to 'kick the can' and NOT to move for one). And, like I said it's going to take a few sessions for them to get to know you and your situation. Hopefully through their coaching you will gain some insight on bringing your W on-board for MB counseling. If she is still reluctant, then you will know where you stand. much more than you do now.

It seems like you're the type of person who won't take advice except from a professional (like the Harleys), but it seems you are afraid to do that. So, I think you're trying to nibble at MB by asking for advice here from the members who are not professionally trained, but have advice from their personal experience to offer, and you feel that with Plan HFD you can cowtow them into sympathy for you and your plan. And another thought I have - maybe your W has declined to enroll in MB or even post on here because you are still too controlling and judging of her,, and possibly blaming and resentful as well. Think you need to find a way to allow her to have individual input to the Harleys' from her standpoint.

Just my thoughts, but you two guys are spinning your wheels badly, and are going nowhere.

Tom

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Dr.Harley is not in active practice and does not take on clients. I am pretty sure he has offered to speak to his wife.


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HFD,
I think you are misreading folks who are trying to help you. Almost all have actually been suggesting you either leave your wife or you take steps to recover your marriage.

First of all, everyone here understands that your wife has made the wrong choice in accepting this job. She has no regard for your feelings or for the consequences of the affair. And she should be held accountable for not sticking to this EP.

But you need to understand that most wayward wive's don't show remorse for their affair unless they fall back in love with their husbands. And the reason your wife isn't in love with you is you have not taken steps to recover your marriage.

Your resentment for her reverberates through nearly every post on this thread. And though you have every right to be very hurt by what she has done, you hold it over her as we saw in the recent message that you sent her. That was not a deposit in her love bank. It was a huge withdrawal. If this has been the tone for the past 4 years, then there is no wonder she has no regard for your safety and your feelings.

**edit**

Right now it is not in your heart to fight for the love of your life. There is too much resentment, too much hurt on your part. I get it. I've been there too. But if you don't try it then you will wind up divorced or floundering in a marriage of misery.

You said you were done with Plan A. If that is the case, then it's Plan B or Plan D. There is no other plan because your marriage never recovered from the affair.


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Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You said you were done with Plan A. If that is the case, then it's Plan B or Plan D. There is no other plan because your marriage never recovered from the affair.


There is another option, as he is avidly considering:
Remain married until the boy graduates and then divorce her.

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You miss the bigger point, Jedi. In essence it would be Plan D because up to this point HFD has not taken the right actions to recover the marriage. And neither has his wife.

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Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You miss the bigger point, Jedi. In essence it would be Plan D because up to this point HFD has not taken the right actions to recover the marriage. And neither has his wife.

Yea, it's like a long-term Plan D.

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You miss the bigger point, Jedi. In essence it would be Plan D because up to this point HFD has not taken the right actions to recover the marriage. And neither has his wife.

Yea, it's like a long-term Plan D.

Or long term limbo that goes well past DS graduating HS.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Hi Melody,

You're right. I really meant Steve Harley (and I realize he is not a PhD) or whoever else does the telephone counseling now. I was thinking maybe Dr. Harley did take on a few clients. My thought was that HFD seems to need some professional advice now to even get hi W to agree to accept any MB program because he seems to be floundering badly in this.

Tom

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HFD:

Joyce and I covered your situation on the radio show last week, but I'd like to repeat and add to what I said then.

I've never been opposed to a betrayed spouse divorcing an unfaithful spouse. It's the most emotionally destructive act of the betrayed spouse's life. It's a blatant disregard for his or her interests. But if there is willingness on the part of both spouses to survive the affair, there is a way that it can be done if they both follow that plan. It requires extraordinary precautions, transparency, and the restoration of a romantic relationship where each spouse meets the other's emotional needs and avoids love busters.

While that plan always enables a marriage to survive when it's followed, it is not always followed. When that happens, the marriage does not survive.

In your case, your wife is not only failing to follow the POJA, an essential component of a mutually caring relationship between spouses, but she is also violating an important precaution to avoid any contact with the other man. Her decision could be the result of something you've done to drive her away, or it could simply be due to her wanting to be more independent. But regardless of the reason, her actions clearly show her unwillingness to make her marriage with you work for both of you. In your case, I would suggest that you follow plan B if she actually takes the job, and possibly even a divorce later on (but I don't want those on the forum to advise a divorce). You have every right to do either. It's your decision.

If your wife would like to discuss her point of view with Joyce and I, on or off the radio, we would be happy to respond to her by email.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

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