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Hello,
I will start with the stats. Me 43, third marriage, have a D20, S10, and 2 grand C (twin identical) of 5 months. I had a vasectomy 7 years ago. W is 26, first marriage, my SD with her is 7. M for a little over 2 years.

My story begins this summer, my W had 2 one night stand affairs, one in mid July, one at the end. Both alcohol fueled by her version of it all.

I was told that the baby was mine initially, until I pushed the fact that I was going to the fertility clinic to get checked out. She asked what would it mean if i came out at 0%. i told her there would be some serious explaining to do. I was in the shower at the time, i remember it so well. She said "I should just start packing then". I had always told her, since before we were married she could only loose me one way, to cheat on me.
She told me that when she was at a work party, she got super drunk and slept with someone from work. I might add we work at the same place. I have been a direct employee for 14 years, highly respected, and in a high visibility position. She has been there 1 year.
I take this info the best i can, i don't over react, I love her, so I just tell her i am devastated, that I need some time and space to think.
I took that space that I needed, and subsequently due to her BPD that did not sit well, even though I did not "knee jerk" react and throw her out, or get angry. There was a night where she completely lost it, was hurting herself and saying some very bad things, specifically about my S7 mom. He was over hearing this, I decided the best course of action was to diffuse the situation by leaving and going to a friends house. I did abandon her that night I think, she needed me, but I needed more to protect my son.
Things escalated, she found me at my friends house, the threats had turned suicidal. I feared for her, the baby, and my son and my friends kids that were present. we called the police, they evaluated her and she went to a hospital.
It was best she didnt come home the doctors decided, i was in support of this as i was concerned for my son, and myself. (there has been physical abuse on me a few times before. She is only 105, so she never truly "hurt" me, just scratch, punch and bite me)
She went to her ex's house, she has no family, so she would have been homeless otherwise. I should mention i got a PPO while she was in the hospital, i feared if my S7 mom heard about the situation, and I did nothing I could loose custody. Again protecting my son.
We both got into counseling, I love my wife, i knew she had a sickness when we married, I know abandoning someone in need is something that is not in my moral character. I remained her friend, there for her, but taking care of myself and my S.
So I have asked for advice from many of council. All of them overwhelmingly said to run, very harsh, very abrupt. Very self protecting. I agree in so many ways.
One man, a life long friend, a man of god. He is 52, has 7 kids, the youngest 10 months, and his wife pregnant again talked to me.
He asked me, did you know she was sick when you got married? Did you know it would be tough to love her always, in sickness and health? For better or worse? my answer is a resounding yes, i knew this would be tough, but i have always known in my heart, she needed me, I needed her. I loved her from the moment we met. I knew as I did that first morning that i understood what had happened, that we had departed physicaly, that I was hurting her, that her seeking that physical side was in part my fault. Could I leave someone I loved in their greatest time of need? Could I leave a innocent child without the man that can love and support them? My answer is instantly no.
After my talk with my friend, I knew that I still loved her, that I forgave her, that we could look to the future and not look back, that I wanted to be there for her through the ultrasounds, the birth of our baby. That I would never think of the joy being brought into my life by god as anything but an amazing moment. there was no affair, just weakness, that she needed help to be stronger, and that we were getting that help.
So here I am today, tonight. I came home from a business trip Thursday, I had let her know she could come home, that I was here for her. She stayed Thursday and Fri night, my S7 here on Fri. Here is the silly and my problem, not that there arent so many that I need all of your advice on within this very long post. I had a birthday party for my D20's friend today. My W thought me going to this prior commitment before we agreed that she would come home this weekend was an abandonment, (a symptom of BPD.) She had a breakdown, , 17 weeks along, and is not here tonight, taking refuge at her ex's house again. (the ex has a GF and i at this moment don't suspect additional A's) We have been sexually active as recently as last night, the passion is still there for us, i adore her more than ever.
But now that she has derailed again, i still miss her, still love her, I know i am probably being nieve, but I have seen much support here. Hope to have your guidance.

Please help me. I could really use the honesty. I really want to be here for my wife, and the baby. But is it too much? I can get out easy, no support, no settlement for divorce, the house is mine, have had it for 12 years, she has only worked for 1 year during our marriage, but easy is not what I am looking for, I still love her, and nothing good comes easy. I am fighting my morals, and trying to do the right thing to help her and the unborn child that needs a dad. Oh, the potential fathers dont want anything to do with the baby and will sign off after paternity is established.
Thank you so much if you read this far. smile

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Sir,

I encourage you to write to Dr. Harley directly for advice.
Please send your email to: marriagebuilders@mbradio.com .

If you would like to speak with him on his radio show include your name and number so he can call you. (You dont have to speak on the radio but it's convenient insofar that he can ask you questions for a better recommendation).

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Sir, this is your third marriage.
Did you read any of Dr. Harley's books prior to this marriage?
You have another 20-25 years of prime life left. Do you really want to spend it with someone that seeks out affairs?

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Dazed43 Offline OP
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Hi,

No, I did not know of him before my current marriage. I do not want to spend my life with a cheater, I deserve happiness, if self preservation is the righteous path, I am ready to follow,

I am in a conundrum on what to do, looking for help with my decision. I know the path 95% of people would take, what i can easily do.
I am looking for advice for what my selfless humble side should do. I have an internal struggle I am seeking advice for. If my path is to be a father for a child that needs me at the price of my sacrifice, if a woman i vowed to be there for needs me at her lowest and I am able to help her who has little, than I want to follow it. If the correct choice is to self preserve,...??
I need guidance obviously.

Sometimes, I just want to know what love is, how we can all be more human, to feel more, to be more compassionate. I want someone to show me, that we are not all that shallow, but it cannot be one sided.
I can be here for someone, even if it means some self sacrifice. Where are the teachings of Jesus to forgive, of Christianity? I find many of my religious friends, tell me to run, it confuses me.

I want to know what a stranger that doesn't know me would say, how they would advise.

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Why did your 2 first marriages end?

Are you going to write Dr. Harley?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
I was told that the baby was mine initially, until I pushed the fact that I was going to the fertility clinic to get checked out.


How far along is she? You had a vasectomy?

Have you both been tested for STDs? Has her affairs been exposed?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Dazed43 Offline OP
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First marriage ended after my D 20 was 2, we were just so young, have been friends ever since. M2 ended after 14 years, she had an affair as well, tried to reconcile and failed, my doing. i could not work past the A. I vowed never to marry again, messed up and fell in love, and here i am.

I emailed Dr Harley tonight with my story.

She is 17 weeks, I had a vasectomy in 2008.
Yes, both tested. Her affairs have not been exposed to anyone but those involved, there is some career suicide from my perspective with the one. NC with the OM she has told me.

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
First marriage ended after my D 20 was 2, we were just so young, have been friends ever since. M2 ended after 14 years, she had an affair as well, tried to reconcile and failed, my doing. i could not work past the A. I vowed never to marry again, messed up and fell in love, and here i am.

I emailed Dr Harley tonight with my story.

She is 17 weeks, I had a vasectomy in 2008.
Yes, both tested. Her affairs have not been exposed to anyone but those involved, there is some career suicide from my perspective with the one. NC with the OM she has told me.

What spyware do you have installed?

If I understand correctly she had 2 one night stands. Were they with the same OM?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Dazed43 Offline OP
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Spyware? Like adaware?
There were 2 different 1 night stands. Do you know what BPD is?

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Spyware? Like adaware?
There were 2 different 1 night stands. Do you know what BPD is?

So 2 different OM?

BPD, is it bipolar or borderline?

Yes spyware on her devices to confirm NC with OM.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Hello,
I will start with the stats. Me 43, third marriage, have a D20, S10, and 2 grand C (twin identical) of 5 months. I had a vasectomy 7 years ago. W is 26, first marriage, my SD with her is 7. M for a little over 2 years.




So, you were 35 or 36 when she was 18 or 19 when you 1st started this relationship. Is that correct?

Also, SD7. Do you have a 7 year old daughter or Step Daughter with her?

Is the BPD diagnosis from a psychiatrist?

Is that Bi-Polar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder?

Childhood abandonment issues and Childhood Sexual Abuse are common predicators of either, but the release in later adult life is different.

1st, you need to install spyware on her means of connectivity and communication to verify the extent of and possible continuing contact with the 2 known affair supposed ONS partners.

Were both admitted ONS's with the same POSOM or 2 separate guys?

Do you know who they are?

How do you feel about raising some other man's child?

LTL

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
HShe had a breakdown, , 17 weeks along, and is not here tonight, taking refuge at her ex's house again. (the ex has a GF and i at this moment don't suspect additional A's) We have been sexually active as recently as last night, the passion is still there for us, i adore her more than ever.
But now that she has derailed again, i still miss her, still love her, I know i am probably being nieve, but I have seen much support here. Hope to have your guidance.


Hi Dazed, welcome to Marriage Builders. It is very likely she is having an affair with her x-boyfriend and he is the father of her baby. She is keeping you around for financial support. [you are her personal ATM] I can understand forgiving someone, but forgiving someone who is not repentant is NOT Biblical and is harmful to you all. The Bible tells us in Ephesians 5:11 to not associate with works of darkness and that is what you are doing by staying with your wife.

All you are doing is enabling your wife. That harms her, you and your son. It is not compassionate to enable destructive behavior. Allowing her to use you as her personal ATM helps no one.

The Bible does not advocate unconditional love and our marriage vows refer to a lifelong commitment in sickness and health. IT says nothing about staying with your spouse when she makes marriage wrecking decisions. In fact, the Bible condones divorce in the case of adultery. Your wife does not commit adultery because she is BPD, but because she is self destructive and feels entitled. There are lots of truly diagnosed BPD people out there and it does not cause them to commit adultery. Dr Harley is a Christian theologian and here is what he says about your approach:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Bill Harley
The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouses lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. Im in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couples control that can negatively impact a marriage). But Im opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlementthat they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.
here

I agree with your friends who tell you to run for your life. There is nothing to save here. Not to mention that this is a horrible environment for your son. Sacrifice in marriage does not work and it especially does not work when it harms innocent children.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43

Sometimes, I just want to know what love is, how we can all be more human, to feel more, to be more compassionate. I want someone to show me, that we are not all that shallow, but it cannot be one sided.


Love is NOT enabling a self destructive person. Do you think it would be "loving" to drive the alcoholic to the bar and give them money to drink all night? That is what you are doing with this woman. There is nothing "loving" or Christian about enabling a self destructive person and allowing her to destroy YOU and your son's lives.

Does that give glory to God or does it give the devil a buy one get three FREE?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Dazed43 Offline OP
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Hi Melody,
I have had these same responses from other blogs, I came to a Christian based forum in hopes of seeing forgiveness, and compassion based opinions, not judgment/self-preservation type of philosophies, I can get that anywhere.
Did I say she was not remorseful or repentant? She has been both of them. When I first found out about the A, I asked her to leave, and she did. She has no living family or friends in our home area, so her EX was her only choice aside from a motel which she couldnt afford. She hasnt asked me for any money during the time of our separation, and I needed some space and time to think this all over. I have an easy out, I can throw her on the street, go on with my life, have my home, my job, my kids, and just dont look back, not caring what happens to her or the unborn innocent child, wash my hands of it and dont look back is what you suggest, no care for our fellow person. That sounds too easy. It doesnt sound like Christian based thinking from my perspective. WWJD? We both understand what is going on, and we have been in counseling for about 10 weeks, separately.
I got some of my current forgiving feelings from my friend that encouraged me to work this out, and also a video I found on this site as well.

***EDIT***

Is what they did in this video wrong in your opinion?

Are her emotional issues not a sickness? Her childhood, and how her family has treated her in her early and teen life years is a very long story, I wont go into that now, but i have yet to hear of such emotional abuse towards someone. I dont like how the world is just a place that we dont care for each other when egregious mistakes are made. We condemn and cast away those that dont serve our greater purpose, no one will remember me for being harsh, for walking away, for my house or my things. If my gravestone says he was too nice of a man, and forgave too much, i will understand. If i am judged by god that i helped a child born that i could see as a gift from god, that i could love, i will have to take that up with my god.
Actually BPD does have a bad decision making side with relationships and sexuality, nothing causes someone to cheat I agree, and I am not excusing it. I am just trying to understand what happened and why. I am not condoning either, but i am trying to be a forgiving man. Struggling because it seems everyone i talk with is in more of a self-preservation mode, take care of yourself and screw the person that wronged you.
My son, misses his step mom and sister, and we have only had the one outburst in front of him. I have taken the road you are speaking of by cut and running, and just take care of me. In the end I was OK, but sometimes wished I had fought harder. I dont want to just quit this time, i was looking for guidance how to try to work things out, to be there for a child that needs a dad, for a person who needs me.
I am possibly very wrong, and as many suggest, I should just be ok with my 3rd divorce, run to save myself, and settle for being single and alone again. I have a large house and joint custody of my S10, so I have 3 and 4 days on my own per week. I find hobbies, things to do, i enjoy life when i am single, but i am not built to be single forever.
My wife has asked for me to forgive her, understood she has shown me a disrespect with her actions, asked that we go with love in our hearts and be better to each other. i am not without fault in our marriage, i have been to lost in my career, and traveling to notice how much we had lost each other. I want to change that.

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MelodyLane is giving you the advice based on Dr. Harley's information. This is his site and has 40+ years of saving marriages and a leading expert on how to survive from infidelity.

Why don't you email him?


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Hi Melody,
I have had these same responses from other blogs, I came to a Christian based forum in hopes of seeing forgiveness, and compassion based opinions, not judgment/self-preservation type of philosophies, I can get that anywhere.


You are misusing Christian principles to justify your enabling practices. Nowhere does the Bible say to forgive someone who is unrepentant. All you are doing is associating you and your son with works of darkness. You don't need to try and tell me she is "repentant" because you posted she was in contact with her boyfriend.

What Jesus would tell you to do is don't associate yourself with works of darkness. That is the best advice we can give you. Because if you don't stop it, you will drag yourself and your son down into her sinful lifestyle.

I think, rather than using sound judgment and garnering wisdom from others, you are shopping for validation for your own poor choices. I am sorry, but we won't validate poorly made, UNCHRISTIAN choices here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Quote:
I dont like how the world is just a place that we dont care for each other when egregious mistakes are made.


I don't like that this world is a place where Christianity is used to pressure people into letting others injure them. I'm sorry that this philosophy has been given to you as Christianity, because I do believe that God cares for you and wants you to care for yourself.

You will read in the Bible in Acts chapter 9 that the apostle Paul fled the town of Damascus at night, being lowered down by a rope through a window on the outside town wall, in a basket. Why? Because people there were trying to hurt him!

You will also read a very fascinating parable from Jesus in Matthew 18:21-35 in which God actually takes forgiveness away from someone who had been previously forgiven. So I don't think that forgiveness is as absolute as people have made it out to you to be. And I definitely don't think that people who aren't as free with forgiveness towards those who want to hurt them as you are are acting unChristian.

Quote:
My wife has asked for me to forgive her, understood she has shown me a disrespect with her actions, asked that we go with love in our hearts and be better to each other. i am not without fault in our marriage, i have been to lost in my career, and traveling to notice how much we had lost each other. I want to change that.


IMO, the best way to do that is to begin listening to the Marriage Builders Radio program together every single day and putting each and every principle into practice together as you hear them. If she will follow this program with you you can have a lifetime of happiness together. If not you might want to seriously consider escaping in a basket.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Melody, I was'nt trying to convince you of anything, merely responding. I was explaining why she was there, you made the assumption that she was sleeping with him. So you are saving me from works of darkness. This is based on what? Because she had affair and is pregnant? I have read surviving an affairs in the blogs, then you say you wont encourage me to be in a sinful relationship. So no relationships can survive an A because it is sinful? I am confused.

Thank you Markos,
I am not trying to use it to allowing others to injure me, i am using it to try to be a good man and use its teachings for guidance. I do protect myself and my son, I also want to be there for the innocent child she is carrying.
Is this basic direction towards me trying to save my marriage based on the fact that she cheated? That she is pregnant? What is the reason i should not forgive her and try to keep our family together?
I will listen to the program, i think she would like to listen to it with me as well. We are getting along great since she came back to the house. I got a text from her just this afternoon,

"I love you with all of my heart, this week has been like a dream *pinch me*. Thank you for your forgiveness and patience and for loving me for who i am"

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Is this basic direction towards me trying to save my marriage based on the fact that she cheated? That she is pregnant? What is the reason i should not forgive her and try to keep our family together?


It is because she is still in contact with her boyfriend. In order to have a marriage both of you need to agree to end all contact with any former lovers and prevent future contact. You might recognize the phrase "forsake all others."


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
"I love you with all of my heart, this week has been like a dream *pinch me*. Thank you for your forgiveness and patience and for loving me for who i am"


When a person has had an affair, you have to look at their actions, not just their words. Many, many affairees have maintained contact while telling their spouse exactly what you posted here. It helps throw the spouse off the scent of what is really going on.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Melody, I was'nt trying to convince you of anything, merely responding. I was explaining why she was there, you made the assumption that she was sleeping with him. So you are saving me from works of darkness. This is based on what? Because she had affair and is pregnant? I have read surviving an affairs in the blogs, then you say you wont encourage me to be in a sinful relationship. So no relationships can survive an A because it is sinful? I am confused.


Yes, I know you are confused, which is why we are trying to help you. You Claim to be a Christian so I am supporting my points from that perspective. Yes, I believe it was your wife's BF who got her pregnant and that is why she runs to him. You have been thrown off the track chasing some supposed "one night stands."

I think that you are so anxious to offer inappropriate forgiveness that you are not using good judgement. Yes you are allowing yourself and your son to be harmed by your wife. That is NOT Christianity.

You came to the wrong place to get validation for unwise choices.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
not caring what happens to her or the unborn innocent child, wash my hands of it and dont look back is what you suggest, no care for our fellow person. That sounds too easy. It doesnt sound like Christian based thinking from my perspective. WWJD?


I wanted to comment on this. Jesus does not command us to love and care for all people in the world equally. For example, I am commanded to love my wife above everyone else. If I see a damsel in distress, I typically don't help her, because doing so would offend my wife - it would be me taking what is due to my wife, as a Christian husband, and giving it to somebody else.

In the same way I do not care for other children with the same level of effort that I give for my own. Yes, I love children - no, I don't take the time and attention my children need from their father to give to other children, no matter how much they need it.

One situation I have seen here is where a man has an affair and fathers a child with his mistress, then repents and wants to keep his marriage. If that is the case, he CANNOT provide care for the child of the affair. If he does, it will be at the expense of his wife and any children he has with his wife. He might owe it to that child, but he can't pay that debt, because he already owes it all to a prior commitment: his wife and kids. That is sad but it is true, and if he tries to be present and raise that child it will destroy his marriage and harm his wife and kids - I've seen it happen, right here.

There is no obligation to you to raise another man's child, not even from God. That is a decision for you to make. Jesus Himself established that a man has the right to divorce his wife for unfaithfulness, and a man who does that is not any less pleasing to Jesus for taking that blessing that Jesus gave him. He's not any less unloving, either.

So it's up to you. If you want to raise the child, I know Dr. Harley's advice would be for you to NOT consent to any paternity checks unless a court requires them, to have yourself listed as the child's father on the birth certificate, and for you and your wife to both end all contact with all former lovers for life. Do not even accept child support, and definitely do not arrange any visitation.

If your wife won't accept this arrangement, or you try to deviate from it, the chances are that your marriage will not succeed and you'll soon find yourself on #4. The path to success here is narrow.


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Your unwarranted "forgiveness" is not Christian, and not in her best interest or yours. If I were you I would be setting up a DNA test to see if the boyfriend is the father. He very likely is.

Dr Harley, a Christian theologian, writes about the misuse of forgiveness: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html


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The boyfiend is the father of my stepdaughter 7, she stayed with him, and sometimes his mom, because there was no other place for her to go. I have full access to her phone, her email, and her passwords. We have set very strict rules for our survival. The ex has a live in girlfriend too, so not thinking there was anything going on. Not trying to be stupid, just being logical. We decided we needed to seperate, and that was the only place she had to go. She has been home since saturday, and everything has been going well. i have emailed the DR. And we will isten to the radio programs. Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...


Like I said, I think that is because you are here for validation of poor choices, not to get sound advice. So, of course you are not going to like to hear anything that goes against your already formed opinion. No one here is going to encourage you to make poor choices based on bad reasoning.


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
The boyfiend is the father of my stepdaughter 7, she stayed with him, and sometimes his mom, because there was no other place for her to go. I have full access to her phone, her email, and her passwords. We have set very strict rules for our survival. The ex has a live in girlfriend too, so not thinking there was anything going on. Not trying to be stupid, just being logical. We decided we needed to seperate, and that was the only place she had to go. She has been home since saturday, and everything has been going well. i have emailed the DR. And we will isten to the radio programs. Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...


Let me make it very clear that a marriage cannot survive continued contact with former lovers. If you want to stay married to her, she needs to discontinue contact with the boyfriend, for life.

There is no other way.

A smart man learns from his own mistakes; a wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Learn from the dozens who've come before you here: continued contact does not and cannot work.

There are plenty of people here who can show you and her how no contact for life can work in your situation.


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...


Most of us make it a policy not to encourage people to believe that something can work when we know for a fact it can't. We do that because we love people and want to help them.


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Sounds like a very sick young woman who has no business being married to anyone. I'm not sure why you continue to put yourself in a position of being abused by her like this. Seems more like a father trying to rescue a daughter than a marriage.

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Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...


Most of us make it a policy not to encourage people to believe that something can work when we know for a fact it can't.


Thanks everyone for the advice.
Take care all. I appreciate the opinions, no facts at all, just opinions. This has been no help for me, just discouragement. I already had that. I will do my best to be there for my kids, and trying to save my marriage, but being here is just setting off triggers and causing me anxiety.
Now I have the daddy thing being referenced. Nice

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...


Most of us make it a policy not to encourage people to believe that something can work when we know for a fact it can't.


Thanks everyone for the advice.
Take care all. I appreciate the opinions, no facts at all, just opinions. This has been no help for me, just discouragement. I already had that. I will do my best to be there for my kids, and trying to save my marriage, but being here is just setting off triggers and causing me anxiety.
Now I have the daddy thing being referenced. Nice


Dazed, we want to discourage you from doing something that you are almost certainly going to regret in the future.

We have seen situations like your dozens of times.

A smart man learns from his mistakes - a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
no facts at all, just opinions


How about "I've seen a hundred cases where someone had an affair and did not break off contact with the former lover. In every single case, the marriage failed, and the betrayed spouse suffered terribly."

Is that fact, or opinion, for you?

How about Dr. Harley's expert opinion? Dr. Harley is a successful marriage counselor who has been doing this for forty years and specializes in infidelity:

Quote:
The first step on the path to surviving an affair is for it to end. An affair ends when the straying spouse ceases all contact with his or her lover and never sees or talks to that person again. Time and again I've watched what happens when a drastic and decisive break with a lover is not made. They try to remain "friends" and maintain casual social contact. But inevitably they find their way back to their lover's arms. It seems that when it comes to this one person, they exhibit incredibly flawed judgment and almost irresistible force draws them back.


Here is where he said this:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8001_affair.html


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Sure seems like some very bitter discouraging people here,...


Most of us make it a policy not to encourage people to believe that something can work when we know for a fact it can't.


Thanks everyone for the advice.
Take care all. I appreciate the opinions, no facts at all, just opinions. This has been no help for me, just discouragement. I already had that. I will do my best to be there for my kids, and trying to save my marriage, but being here is just setting off triggers and causing me anxiety.
Now I have the daddy thing being referenced. Nice


It can't work if she is still in contact with her boyfriend, Dazed.

We have plenty of people in such situations who have ended contact for life and have recovered their marriage and can show you how this is possible.

Just because they have a child together does not mean they have to stay in contact. We have plenty of people who can show you how it is possible for contact to end. And it has to end, or else this cannot work, Dazed.


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Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


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It feels like everyone is saying that this WW cannot change. I feel bad for Dazed, since he wants advice that can save his M, not advice for how to end it.

As one who was in his WW's position years ago, I know for a fact that people can change and things can work out IF both parties are in agreement on some important things:

1. No contact ever with the OP. I held up that deal, and as a result OP went away. But that is crucial to M recovery. Had I kept contact, even the slightest bit, it would have destroyed my resolve. Your WW should not be in contact with any ex's. You should be handling all communication, even if you don't believe she's cheating with that person. A cheater cannot be trusted EVER (I speak from experience). And if she is indeed BPD, then she probably has self-esteem issues that she wants male attention to "fix"--including ex's. Help her flee from temptation by enforcing NC--I'd suggest NC with any males, if possible. All men will be temptation for someone with BPD like she has.

2. Significant boundaries. My BH was too lenient with boundaries, so I made them more stringent. Your WW, if she seriously wants to mend the M, must give herself boundaries and you need to enforce them. The more extreme the better.

3. Personally, I don't recommend a DNA test if you want to stay together. It screwed everything up for us since it forced the OM to be involved (and later we found out the test results were faked anyways). However, if there's a chance you don't want to stay together, then get the test done to protect yourself.

Dazed, I admire your tenacity. But things will have to change big-time if you want to save your M. Your WW can't use BPD as an excuse. Trust me on this one. It's a choice to cheat. It's a choice to destroy the person you claim to love most by committing the worst sin against them. She needs to recognize the severity of her actions, and she needs to make drastic changes. She must not interact with men, must not go out with girlfriends, and her life needs to revolve around you at all times. With BPD, that's the only way she'll be able to prevent having another A. If you really want to save your M, you'll both take drastic measures to protect her from herself.

I hope this helps, since I was in her shoes and know exactly what she's going through. I was glad my BH took me back, but I assure you I had to prove that I was worth the second chance. She needs to do the same.


Me: WW
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DS(2)
DD(1)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)

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"It feels like everyone is saying that this WW cannot change. I feel bad for Dazed, since he wants advice that can save his M, not advice for how to end it. "

We are here to give realistic advice, not to just tell people what they want to hear no matter how destructive.. This is not a marriage at all cost program. The reason this man should get DNA testing is to determine if it is the "old boyfriend" who got her pregnant. Giving people false hope is not my idea of being helpful.


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
"It feels like everyone is saying that this WW cannot change. I feel bad for Dazed, since he wants advice that can save his M, not advice for how to end it. "

We are here to give realistic advice, not to just tell people what they want to hear no matter how destructive.. This is not a marriage at all cost program. The reason this man should get DNA testing is to determine if it is the "old boyfriend" who got her pregnant. Giving people false hope is not my idea of being helpful.

^^agree

Also, wanthealing you realize that Dazed has had a vasectomy and so most likely didn't get his WW pregnant, correct?

I know that there have been stories of vasectomy failing, but there's alot of smoke around that there's a fire somewhere.


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: wanthealing
I don't recommend a DNA test if you want to stay together. It screwed everything up for us since it forced the OM to be involved


A DNA test does not force the OM to be involved.

I commented earlier:
Quote:
If you want to raise the child, I know Dr. Harley's advice would be for you to NOT consent to any paternity checks unless a court requires them, to have yourself listed as the child's father on the birth certificate, and for you and your wife to both end all contact with all former lovers for life. Do not even accept child support, and definitely do not arrange any visitation.


Nothing wrong with him checking privately if he wants to know. But he shouldn't consent to any paternity checks anyone else is demanding, and he shouldn't allow OM into the child's life, or his, or his wife's.

Be sure to let Dazed know that this can never work if she stays in contact with her boyfriend. Can you help us reinforce that message?


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My recommendation for the DNA test is only to determine WHO the father really is. I don't believe the BH knows who it is. As Markos stated, it should not be done for any other reason.


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Originally Posted By: wanthealing

3. Personally, I don't recommend a DNA test if you want to stay together. It screwed everything up for us since it forced the OM to be involved


Explain how it forces the OM to be involved let alone to know about a DNA test being done when the WW, BH, and, child is all that is needed to find out if the if who the bio dad is.

Unless there were more then one OM. Was there?

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Thank you WH, I am not looking for unrealistic expectations, just some help in trying to do things the best with the decisions that have been made already by my W and I. We ARE going to try to make this work.
My W understands the severity of the issues at hand, she has been and continues to be remorseful, and thankful for the chance to fix what has been broken.
She has agreed to NC with any OM, including her child's father, I will be handling all of that from here on out. She did some of the same as you wanthealing, we discussed boundaries I had in mind, and she suggested we put the bar higher. She knows trust is at an all time low, and that i will need to have an understanding of everything that is going on, where she is, what she is doing for quite a long time, not from a control viewpoint, but to help us be accountable to each other.
We are trying to save our M, we both want to, it is tough for me to follow this path, but this is what i want to do, and what i have chosen to do after seeking many counsel, from so many places and people. i am not doing this to be popular, i am doing this because it is what feels right in my heart. I do not and will not abandon someone for making mistakes in life when they ask and truly want forgiveness. I would be the first with sin to cast a stone, i have needed forgiveness many times in my life and god has afforded me those chances.
I do not see the need for DNA testing, I know most likely it is not mine, but I will raise the baby as my own. I also dont want any reason for contact with the OM. If there is some court order in the future fine, but at this point i dont see a need, I need to work on our M our D20, S10, and D7 and our family. We had a great Thanksgiving, putting up the tree, and we are doing better than we have in so very long. We talk on a regular basis on the things we need to keep doing, the potential pitfalls, and how to make our M a better one.

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Something new to add, My ExW of my son 10, has seen that my W is pregnant, and knows that i had a vasectomy, she calls me today and asks me what i am telling my S10... i tell her it is none of her business. She has no idea if i had a reversal, or my W got pregnant by me some other "magical" way, lol
This is not something you discuss with a 10 year old in my opinion.
My ExW tells me she will tell my S10 the "truth". Cant stop her from saying what she wants, but there is no need for my son to think of the baby on the way as anything else but his sibling.

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
T I would be the first with sin to cast a stone, i have needed forgiveness many times in my life and god has afforded me those chances.


DAzed, this is not about hypocrisy so your words are very inappropriate. Folks want to help you here, but not when the conditions are unrealistic. We have helped thousands of people save their marriages over the years and while I hope yours works out, hope is not a plan. It will take a real plan.

And forgiveness is not appropriate in this case. It is not in your best interest or your wife's interest and will harm your chances of recovery. Read Dr Harley's reasoning here:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
She has agreed to NC with any OM, including her child's father


Good - that's the only way this can work.

Quote:
She knows trust is at an all time low, and that i will need to have an understanding of everything that is going on, where she is, what she is doing for quite a long time


No, for life.

This is how couples who have a good marriage live. They are so closely integrated that it would be impossible for them to have an affair without the other's knowledge. It turns out that the things you do to prevent an affair are also the things that lead to a happy marriage.

, not from a control viewpoint, but to help us be accountable to each other.
We are trying to save our M, we both want to, it is tough for me to follow this path, but this is what i want to do, and what i have chosen to do after seeking many counsel, from so many places and people. i am not doing this to be popular, i am doing this because it is what feels right in my heart. I do not and will not abandon someone for making mistakes in life when they ask and truly want forgiveness. I would be the first with sin to cast a stone, i have needed forgiveness many times in my life and god has afforded me those chances.
I do not see the need for DNA testing, I know most likely it is not mine, but I will raise the baby as my own. I also dont want any reason for contact with the OM. If there is some court order in the future fine, but at this point i dont see a need, I need to work on our M our D20, S10, and D7 and our family. We had a great Thanksgiving, putting up the tree, and we are doing better than we have in so very long. We talk on a regular basis on the things we need to keep doing, the potential pitfalls, and how to make our M a better one. [/quote]


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
We are trying to save our M, we both want to, it is tough for me to follow this path, but this is what i want to do, and what i have chosen to do after seeking many counsel, from so many places and people. i am not doing this to be popular, i am doing this because it is what feels right in my heart. I do not and will not abandon someone for making mistakes in life when they ask and truly want forgiveness. I would be the first with sin to cast a stone, i have needed forgiveness many times in my life and god has afforded me those chances.


It always worries me here when I see someone acting very dramatic.

Dazed, you don't have to convince us that this is the right path. Most of us wouldn't choose that path and are not interested in being persuaded of it, so there's no sense going on about it.

What we will do is tell you when you or your wife are making a choice that will lead to failure.


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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
Something new to add, My ExW of my son 10, has seen that my W is pregnant, and knows that i had a vasectomy, she calls me today and asks me what i am telling my S10... i tell her it is none of her business. She has no idea if i had a reversal, or my W got pregnant by me some other "magical" way, lol
This is not something you discuss with a 10 year old in my opinion.
My ExW tells me she will tell my S10 the "truth". Cant stop her from saying what she wants, but there is no need for my son to think of the baby on the way as anything else but his sibling.


I don't understand why you take calls from your ex-wife.


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I took the text and spoke with her because it is regarding my son.... and his mental health. This can mess with a kids head, I was concerned after the interaction at my grandsons baptism.
She did have a talk with him and told him that the baby was not mine and I am not the father. (again he is 10) He seemed distant this morning while driving him to school, i asked him if something was bothering him. He said his mom had told him that.. I was floored!
I was hoping for some advice on how to handle the situation with my son.
Told the kids last night it was a boy on the way.

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Originally Posted By: Dazed43
I took the text and spoke with her because it is regarding my son.... and his mental health. This can mess with a kids head, I was concerned after the interaction at my grandsons baptism.
She did have a talk with him and told him that the baby was not mine and I am not the father. (again he is 10) He seemed distant this morning while driving him to school, i asked him if something was bothering him. He said his mom had told him that.. I was floored!
I was hoping for some advice on how to handle the situation with my son.
Told the kids last night it was a boy on the way.

What about emailing Dr. Harley?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
MelodyLane is giving you the advice based on Dr. Harley's information. This is his site and has 40+ years of saving marriages and a leading expert on how to survive from infidelity.

Why don't you email him?


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I want to address the issue of your ex wife telling your 10 year old son that you are not the father of the unborn baby your wife is now pregnant with.
Dr Harley encourages affairs to be exposed to children.
Did you expose your wifes affair to your son?
If not, you are trying to protect him from reality. Do you intend to lie to your son?
I agree that you should email Dr Harley for guidAnce.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice the act to deceive.

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Does my 10 year old need to be exposed? Yes and No. I dont want to put that on him quite yet, I dont lie, ever, to anyone, but I will hold it until they can handle it. I am most likely going against every piece of advice you can all give me.
I cant stop myself to help someone in need. My W needs a warm bed, hot meals, stress free, she needs baby stuff, I want the innocent child to be born healthy and provided for, I thankfully can do that.
I know I put myself last, I put my sons and my step daughters needs in front of mine. I know it is all a facade at the moment, the house of cards will come down sooner or later. I have my lawyer involved, things at the ready, this is a hill to walk down, not run.If it were not for me, I don't know who my W would have. She is not mentally ok, I am just trying to do the right thing, they all seem to have their pit falls. I am helping someone in need.
So, to recap, she is living here in my house, I am being a good supportive man, she thinks it will all work out, she hopes, I know it wont. I plan my exit every day.
I will continue to be here, to be with her when she needs someone. I will get a divorce, I will not sign anything, it will be shortly after the baby is born, my state lets me dis prove paternity. I would think end of summer.
I am not in for any of it, not being with someone who cheated and lied. I will not put what I want away for that, I would sacrifice for a true companion, but there is no hope here, not from me.
Life is tough, tough choices, humanitarian, and self preservation. I have so much more positive things in the next 20+ years, I will not sideline it all again.
This has all been a process, I had just hoped for a bit of a better bedside manner.

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"but I will hold it until they can handle it"

I understand there are considerations with children in telling them something that is potentially harmful to them, but in general, this IS lying. To withhold the truth is to lie, even if you have noble intentions.

Lying can be both a sin of commission and a sin of omission. You can lie by not saying something true just as much as by saying something false. A half truth is a lie.

Just wanted to point that out. It's incredibly hurtful to be the person from which the truth was withheld.


Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders"
2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more.

When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29
Married: 7 years
Together: 8 years
D-day: 10/5/2014
D filed: 1/22/2015
D Final: 6/4/2015

My story
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Did you create a new user account?

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Thank goodness your ex wife has the sense not to a lie to the poor child. He will have seen very disturbing things and should be encouraged to talk about them, not be hushed up.

So when her back was against the wall she admitted to one night stands. You don't find that convenient?

No one is saying she can't rise above this but not while you are spoonfeeding her and lying for her like her Daddy.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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