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My spouse and I filled out the emotional needs questionnaires yesterday.

Her top 5:
1. Honesty
2. Companionship
3. Intimate conversation
4. Family Support
5. Financial Support

Mine:
1. Intimate conversation
2. Companionship
3. Sex
4. Honesty
5. Affection

The next day, I can't help but wonder: how do you know you're being honest with yourself and your wife is really being honest with herself in ranking these? It seems like there is potential to distort your own feelings out of a sense of what is socially/culturally acceptable (e.g. who wants to admit that financial support is first on their list? Or, as a man, are you lying if you say anything other than sex is #1?), or distort your answers so as to not hurt your spouse (I imagine it would be a tough thing to say "Physical Attractiveness" is my #1 to a spouse that does not consider themselves attractive)

I read that spouses frequently have polar opposite top 5's. Yet when I look at my wife and my results, which we wrote independently, we have quite a few in common. Can that realistically happen?

I'm also not sure if we are fitting the gender stereotypes.

How important is it that we are really, really sure these are the ones in the right order before we start building on these in our UA time?

Your insight, or pointing to any particular resource/article, would be most appreciated. The exercise was more difficult than I thought.

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From "His Needs, Her Needs":

The top ENs for a typical man:

1. Sexual Fulfilment
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Physical Attractiveness
4. Domestic Support
5. Admiration

For a typical woman, they are:

1. Affection
2. Intimate Conversation
3. Honesty and Openness
4. Financial Support
5. Family Commitment

Simply because these are typical doesn't mean there is cause for concern if they don't match yours. My wife and I have many of them flipped around between us. They also are dynamic, depending on circumstances. Nearly everybody who has been the victim of an affair will place Honesty and Openness near the top.

So, the fact that you both share many top ENs is good. Now you know where to start. Don't overthink this. Instead, go with the flow.


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I would go with these for now. In 6 months, do it again and see if you have the same results.. My husband and I were different as well. Recreational Companionship and Sex were my top needs. My husband's were honesty, family commitment and affection...
We were quite backwards...

Also, I've decided that financial support is VERY important to me as I broke up with a boyfriend that I didn't think could provide it. However, it doesn't feel like a need anymore because my husband has always done it so well. If he were irresponsible and we didn't have enough money, then that would be a big issue.

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Hey Test Guy,

Can you ask the moderators to merge your threads. It's best the stick with one thread.


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WH 61
married 35 years
2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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I hope you start reading up Dr Harleys
Materials. This would likely help you along.


At the end of the day you both tune into one another top emotional needs. But know the 15- 20 hours of US time are about meeting the needs for intimate conversation, affection, SF,and recreation companionship.

To continue, I'd take the recreation companionship questionnaire too. That way you can experiment with activities for UA time you want to try. It takes a willingness to test the waters to see what you are both enthusiastic about. It's OK if one spouse is a little skeptical at first but if you try it and if either are not enthusiastic you knock that off.

It's best to find activities you can do where you both can talk to one another along the way. You don't want anyone else to be part of the date. No children. No other couples. The focus is on the two of you. Plus during your date don't get into relationship talk or try to be your spouse's therapist. Get to know one another all over again.

Your wife wants honesty. So in your conversations talk about your day. How you felt and so on. Talk about plans for the future. Keep her informed. Perhaps you tend to stuff it.

And because you have listed affection. Write down for your wife what that means to YOU. Typically this is tops for females. Dr Harleys does a good job discussing meeting th ok this need and all others in his book His Needs Her Needs (hope you get it) it's my top need and ranks high for my husband too. I know it's important to inform one another in this regard.

Hope this helps you get started or at least gives you the ideas.


















BW 58
WH 61
married 35 years
2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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The family support need is likely important due to young children. Take a look at this one in His Needs Her Needs and Five steps to Romantic Love. Meeting this need also like UA time requires a time commitment. Time together as a family doing fun stuff together each week. Check it out. You have lots of homework! But this is healthy and exciting. In a short time you will feel less lost regarding marriage, family and intimacy in general.



BW 58
WH 61
married 35 years
2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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Originally Posted by graceful2b
Hey Test Guy,

Can you ask the moderators to merge your threads. It's best the stick with one thread.

Sure, I can do so. I purposefully created a different thread since I thought this topic could be viewed somewhat independently of my previous post on sex in particular. So in other words, all topics that I post in relation to my relationship should be under 1 thread? I just want to make sure I observe the guidelines correctly. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by graceful2b
At the end of the day you both tune into one another top emotional needs. But know the 15- 20 hours of US time are about meeting the needs for intimate conversation, affection, SF,and recreation companionship.

Testguy, please pay close attention to graceful's comment because at the end of day, the most important emotional needs are the top 4 intimate emotional needs, which should be met during 15 hours of scheduled UA time per week. THOSE are the emotional needs that create the greatest love bank deposits that lead to romantic love. Other EN's, like financial support, domestic support are not needs that, when met, will not cause a person to fall in love. Since they can be done apart, they won't create intimacy that leads to romantic love.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by graceful2b
The family support need is likely important due to young children. Take a look at this one in His Needs Her Needs and Five steps to Romantic Love. Meeting this need also like UA time requires a time commitment. Time together as a family doing fun stuff together each week.

I have ordered the His Needs Her Needs book and just waiting for it now.

Perhaps some of these questions are answered in the book so I am happy to reserve my questions until after I receive it and read through it, but just thinking out loud:

- You're right, family support is due to young kids, and one of them autistic. I am seeing there is definitely work that I need to do in terms of time management, it seems really hard. 15+ hours UA, time with family including kids as you mentioned, and my wife also noted she would like to see me doing more one-on-one time with my kids, and as well she is happy with my $200k salary 'but it could always be higher'. I recognize her need for all these things, but I am worried I won't be able to do everything.

- My wife is the one who is reluctant to get away from the house on a 'date' more than once a month, or even take time for herself while I watch the kids. It has been a frequent source of argument. I just don't see convincing her of the importance of UA time when she is certain (and I tend to agree) that most friends, family, teachers aren't able to handle our young autistic son. I think I have made some progress recently by convincing her to play a game with me on the couch tonight instead of just falling asleep in front of the TV. Does that even count? If she is unwilling to increase our UA time, should I be seeking a 3rd party for help, like a counselor?

- My wife is surprised that I even wanted to fill out a questionnaire, surprised that I see anything 'in trouble' with our relationship and that I would want to work on continuous improvement. I have always known her to be very honest and believe she's being honest with me when she says this. She ranked me above-average on quality and quantity on all of her top 5 needs, the only exceptions being intimate conversation and family commitment where she rated me 'average' and felt I could be spending more time and being more 'present' mentally, not as distracted by work. Meanwhile, I frequently feel dissatisfied and lonely as we go long stretches without sex, affection, admiration and even intimate conversation, before and after our kids came along. Am I wrong and she is sugar-coating things for my benefit, and I'm in fact doing worse job than she says? Is she simply not being honest with herself? Or, does she genuinely think I'm a good partner, and I'm the one disappointed simply because I'm not being 'assertive' enough about my own needs? I am often reluctant to articulate my needs, with the thinking that no affection/admiration/sex is better than affection/admiration/sex that I had to beg for. Not to mention I don't want to cause an aversion to affection/admiration/sex by being demanding or whiney about it.

- Moreover, my wife has only listed 2 of the 4 most 'intimate' of the needs in her top 5, whereas I have all 4. Again I have to wonder if she is being honest with herself that affection and sex are low on the list, or if it's just affection and sex with me in particular that she doesn't value.

I suspect I'm overthinking things...

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Originally Posted by TestGuy
[- My wife is the one who is reluctant to get away from the house on a 'date' more than once a month, or even take time for herself while I watch the kids. It has been a frequent source of argument. I just don't see convincing her of the importance of UA time when she is certain (and I tend to agree) that most friends, family, teachers aren't able to handle our young autistic son. I think I have made some progress recently by convincing her to play a game with me on the couch tonight instead of just falling asleep in front of the TV. Does that even count?

Testguy, this is the big miss in your marriage. If you can solve this problem of UA time, you will solve this problem:
Originally Posted by testguy
Meanwhile, I often feel dissatisfied and sex, where we go long stretches without sex, affection, admiration and even intimate conversation.

The biggest problem in your marriage is that your wife has fallen out of love. You don't spend enough time together meeting each others EN's to sustain a marriage. The canary in the mine is the fact that she no longer wants to have sex with you. Playing a game on the couch is like arranging the curtains on the sinking Titanic. If you want your marriage to work, you are going to have to right the sinking ship. It will take persuading her to go out with you 4 times a week on dates.

You can't possibly expect to change your marriage unless you make radical changes in your lifestyle. I understand it is very hard to get babysitters when you have an autistic child, but it is in your child's best interest for you to figure that out. The most important thing to your child is his parents marriage. It would ruin his life if you ended up divorced.

This program does not work without following the policy of undivided attention, so if you won't do that, then there is no point in doing the other steps.

Have you read Dr Harley's articles about undivided attention?

  • "The reason I have so much difficulty getting couples to spend time alone together is that when I first see them for counseling, they are not in love. Their relationship does not do anything for them, and the time spent with each other seems like a total waste at first. But when they spend time together, they learn to re-create the romantic experiences that first nurtured their love relationship. Without that time, they have little hope of restoring the love they once had for each other."


  • "But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again."


  • "Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other."


  • "You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintaining a passionate and fulfilling marriage."


The Policy of Undivided Attention

Quote
Meanwhile, I often feel dissatisfied and sex, where we go long stretches without sex, affection, admiration and even intimate conversation. Is she sugar-coating things for my benefit or not being honest with herself? Or, as I suspect, am I simply not being 'assertive' enough about my own needs? I am often reluctant to articulate my needs, with the thinking that no affection/admiration/sex is better than affection/admiration/sex that I had to push for.

Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment ["in love" feeling] to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. The UA time will create the romantic feelings. The worst thing you can do is demand that she make love to you when she is not in love. That is how aversions are created. The solution to get her to fall in love with you. Women are in love are motivated to make love to their partners.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by TestGuy
[- My wife is the one who is reluctant to get away from the house on a 'date' more than once a month, or even take time for herself while I watch the kids..

The latter suggestion is a concern because if her leisure time is spent away from you, it will become more important than your marriage. Any leisure time should be spent together, not apart.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I've read the UA article you reference multiple times. I've shared it with my spouse who has sort of dismissed it as unrealistic. I have to admit most couples we know do not come close to that kind of UA time, so it's hard to make an argument that we should be, when we have the autistic son to boot.

It's heart breaking to hear that she has fallen out of love with me.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The latter suggestion is a concern because if her leisure time is spent away from you, it will become more important than your marriage. Any leisure time should be spent together, not apart.

Agreed. She insists on little to no leisure time at all for herself, despite me, her parents and our child psychologist encouraging her to take time away from the kids. Her leisure time is falling asleep in front of the TV, and occasionally browsing Facebook reading articles in the afternoon. Anything else that happens occassionally (going to friends' houses, playdates with the kids, shopping at the mall, dinner at her parents, a once a month date night ,etc.) we do together.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment ["in love" feeling] to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. The UA time will create the romantic feelings. The worst thing you can do is demand that she make love to you when she is not in love. That is how aversions are created. The solution to get her to fall in love with you. Women are in love are motivated to make love to their partners.

Agreed, which is why I rarely talk about my needs explicitly, hesitate to initiate sex (1-2 times a year in the last few years, only when she prompted me).

Still, there's something I can't quite reconcile - men need to initiate because we have the testosterone. Yet we shouldn't initiate if our wives are not in love. My wife says she is in love and rates me fairly high on meeting her needs, despite our lack of UA time. So, should I be focused on getting her to fall in love with me, and wait for her to initiate?

In the last few months I have taken a chance and initiated more frequently and she's been fairly receptive, and encouraged me to 'keep trying as long as I don't mind the occasional rejection'. Should I take her at her word or again forget initiating sex and just focus on whatever UA time I can get to meet her emotional needs.

And actually, forget sex which seems more complicated and just look at affection. Should I continue to show her affection even if she doesn't show as much back? (ie. I give her a good morning hug, she ignores me, angry because of the kids latest behavior) She says her more aloof attitude is because she's simply not a touchy-feely person and doesn't rank affection very highly on her needs list. Is she being honest about this, or in actuality has fallen out of love and simply hasn't realized it or isn't being honest with me about that?

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Originally Posted by TestGuy
I've read the UA article you reference multiple times. I've shared it with my spouse who has sort of dismissed it as unrealistic. I have to admit most couples we know do not come close to that kind of UA time, so it's hard to make an argument that we should be, when we have the autistic son to boot.

It's heart breaking to hear that she has fallen out of love with me.

Testguy, I would not dismiss this point because the success of your marriage depends on it. I would spend all of your focus on persuading her to start doing this with you.

And yes, I understand that other couples don't do this. That is why the divorce rate is 60% and only 20% of married people are in love. Couples that are in love don't get divorced though. We aren't trying to make you like "other couples;" we are trying to recover your marriage.

I would keep this issue on the front burner until it is resolved. Don't give up this easily.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by TestGuy
[

Still, there's something I can't quite reconcile - men need to initiate because we have the testosterone. Yet we shouldn't initiate if our wives are not in love. My wife says she is in love and rates me fairly high on meeting her needs, despite our lack of UA time. So, should I be focused on getting her to fall in love with me, and wait for her to initiate?

No, you shouldn't DEMAND. You asked if you should be more "aggressive" about sex. And I say no. I am not saying don't initiate it. Don't push her into having sex with you if she has no desire.

Quote
And actually, forget sex which seems more complicated and just look at affection. Should I continue to show her affection even if she doesn't show as much back? (ie. I give her a good morning hug, she ignores me, angry because of the kids latest behavior) She says her more aloof attitude is because she's simply not a touchy-feely person and doesn't rank affection very highly on her needs list. Is she being honest about this, or in actuality has fallen out of love and simply hasn't realized it or isn't being honest with me about that?

She has fallen out of love. When a woman has fallen out of love, they rank the intimate emotional needs much lower. When they are in love, they rank intimate emotional needs much higher.

I would be as affectionate as possible without annoying her. I would call her several times during the day and do sweet things for her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by TestGuy
I've read the UA article you reference multiple times. I've shared it with my spouse who has sort of dismissed it as unrealistic. I have to admit most couples we know do not come close to that kind of UA time, so it's hard to make an argument that we should be, when we have the autistic son to boot.

If you cannot persuade her on this point, I would enlist one of the Marriage Builders counselors such as Dr. Jennifer Chalmers, who is Dr Harley's daughter. They do phone coaching. It is pricey [$200] but it is worth every penny. They don't believe in endless counseling but will give you a plan to turn your marriage around.

If you can PERSUADE your wife to participate in this program, we can walk you through the whole thing. Many of us have gone through the program ourselves and I believe you are organized and methodical enough to follow a plan. Your only obstacle is motivating your wife.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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With your high salary, could you hire a nanny or a babysitter who specializes in taking care of special needs children?

Then you could schedule your UA time in the 4 hour blocks that Dr. Harley recommends.


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Here is another good thread on UA.

The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
With your high salary, could you hire a nanny or a babysitter who specializes in taking care of special needs children?

Then you could schedule your UA time in the 4 hour blocks that Dr. Harley recommends.

Agreed. I've suggested that and variations of that (e.g. at least pay for a cleaning person to clean our house, relieving her of the domestic chores other than the kids). At one point we had a specialized therapist come do 4 hour blocks with our autistic son every weekday during the day, but even then my wife did not feel comfortable leaving the house. She's had bad experiences with babysitters, teachers, etc. and forcing the issue only drives a wedge between us, so I bring it up gently and only periodically.

She is also reluctant to pay for any kind of outside service so that we can save up to get a bigger house.

If I suggested that our relationship is more important than our kids or house (the way the Dr suggested in one of the aforementioned UA articles), I believe her response would be "but our relationship is good the way it is, what are you talking about?"

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