Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
Thank you, Unwritten. I do not like the person I have become around DH. I'm not having anger issues around others or when I'm alone, so I'm not worried about unhealthy habits. When I recognized this ugly side around DH, I immediately worked to put a stop to it. He then posted here that things were going much better and I was ready for the next step. I wasn't and am still not ready. I just didn't want to be a b****.

Smile


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
Regarding childcare, I agree that would be a good solution, but we are in a small town and availability is limited. This time of year, I would just be able to get on waiting lists. She's still too young to qualify for the 3 and up care, but I might be able to find something after her birthday. I put a lot of research into childcare in the Summer and Fall. It took 3 months just to get that 2nd day. I had her in a home daycare, but that didn't work out. She is already signed up for preschool in the Fall.
The daycare hunt has been a real pain in the butt.

Smile


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
Here is what I wrote to him:

"I don't know that that is necessary. It's not the gym that is the problem so much as your ability to make recreational time for yourself during work hours combined with your ability to forget that I was and still am in recovery. It's not such a big deal right now, but this past year, I really needed you. You were able to carve time out for the gym, but not for me while I was overdoing things within a month of surgery. You disappear off to work and are unaware of what I do to keep this family going or how much pain I'm in. Especially over the summer, it would have been really nice if you had altered your work hours so I wasn't left alone so much. I think being forced to resume full-time mom duties too soon is a big part of why my recoveries have taken longer than they should have and you don't have any idea how hard it is to be in pain for such a long period of time. It's not the gym or the work that's the problem, but what has come across as a selfish approach to those things when I needed you most."

I think I've just developed a habit of telling him what I need and then giving him an opportunity to avoid doing it...he has consistently taken the out.
For instance, during the long drive to one of my doctor appointments, I told him that I wish he could just look me in the eye and tell me that he'd love me no matter what...even if we never had sex again. In the brief silence that followed, I saved him and said, "but, I would never do that to you."
He never replied.
I reminded him of that during our "discussion" the other night (I saw that as a fight, but he doesn't agree) and he asked if he could say it now. Not sure why he asked, but when he said it, I didn't feel anything.

I need to find my copies of Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. They are in a box in the basement somewhere. I can't even remember if I wrote in the LB book, but I don't remember him engaging in the exercises. Too long ago to remember. I know I've developed quite a few LBs that need to be addressed even if he wasn't able to tell me what they were.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by SmileADay
I need to find my copies of Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. They are in a box in the basement somewhere. I can't even remember if I wrote in the LB book, but I don't remember him engaging in the exercises. Too long ago to remember. I know I've developed quite a few LBs that need to be addressed even if he wasn't able to tell me what they were.

You might want to get new copies, since both have been revised in recent years. It is a good idea to get 2 copies of Lovebusters and go through the chapters together, highlighting things that stand out to you both. You can then exchange your books to see what stood out to the other person. Each chapter closes with some lessons. Another great resource is the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love.

Quote
I think I've just developed a habit of telling him what I need and then giving him an opportunity to avoid doing it...he has consistently taken the out.
For instance, during the long drive to one of my doctor appointments, I told him that I wish he could just look me in the eye and tell me that he'd love me no matter what...even if we never had sex again.

I just want to point that people fall in love based on how well their needs are met. If you won't meet his needs, he will fall out of love. Just as you would fall out of love with him if he stopped meeting your needs. That is the whole basis of the Love Bank, which you can read about here:

The Love Bank

Loving you "no matter what" falls in the category of unconditional love, which you may not have meant. If you did, Dr Harley writes about it here: What's Wrong with Unconditional Love? (Part 1)


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Originally Posted by SmileADay
I think I've just developed a habit of telling him what I need and then giving him an opportunity to avoid doing it...he has consistently taken the out.
For instance, during the long drive to one of my doctor appointments, I told him that I wish he could just look me in the eye and tell me that he'd love me no matter what...even if we never had sex again. In the brief silence that followed, I saved him and said, "but, I would never do that to you."
He never replied.
I reminded him of that during our "discussion" the other night (I saw that as a fight, but he doesn't agree) and he asked if he could say it now. Not sure why he asked, but when he said it, I didn't feel anything.

I need to find my copies of Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. They are in a box in the basement somewhere. I can't even remember if I wrote in the LB book, but I don't remember him engaging in the exercises. Too long ago to remember. I know I've developed quite a few LBs that need to be addressed even if he wasn't able to tell me what they were.

In your example, you are telling him to tell you that he feels a certain way, but are holding him accountable for not telling you that. You are even bringing it up in subsequent conversation. Can you see how disrespectful this is? It is a DJ to tell him how he feels, and a double whammy to tell him to TELL YOU that he feels that way. Not only does it put him on the spot, but it does not encourage RH at all, can you see this? You are basically telling him to agree to do something that is not honest, but then holding him accountable if he doesn't do it.

When I first read the book Lovebusters, I thought, wow we are lucky we don't do any of these things! Ha, what a joke. We practice many LB's in our marriage that we are having to work hard to conquer, but they do become so ingrained it is very difficult to see them.


Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
I wanted to point out that you are giving this as an example of 'telling him what you need,' but in reality you are committing a love buster by DJing him.

You basically said, I need you to tell me that even if you never get your EN's met, you will still love me unconditionally. As ML pointed out, this is not something the Marriage Builders program supports at all.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
No, you're right.
I didn't mean it that way. The precursor to that was me asking what would have happened if I'd gotten cancer and couldn't have sex for several months due to treatment. I never intended it to sound like forever. The point there was more of what if I had an really obvious medical reason to abstain for a long period of time...would he still be bitter? Of course, I DID have a really obvious medical reason to abstain and he didn't see that.
Anyhow, he wasn't giving me enough time to heal from my surgeries before telling me he was unhappy because he wasn't getting enough sex and it was usually nonverbal communication that I could not ignore. I could tell he was making a great effort not to bring it up, but I was also dealing with the not so subtle hints along with the side effects of him not getting enough, so the guilt was their anyway. His attempts at hiding his feelings from me don't work so well. I never tried hiding my feelings from him until the past couple of months. I'm sick of complaining and I'm sick of spelling everything out for him. I really honestly, just need some space.

I saw my therapist last night and she's going to read up on the MB concepts, especially UA, since that seems to be a big area of personal conflict for me.

"I just want to point that people fall in love based on how well their needs are met. If you won't meet his needs, he will fall out of love. Just as you would fall out of love with him if he stopped meeting your needs. That is the whole basis of the Love Bank"
Well, yeah. That's why I always had sex with him even when I didn't want to and even when I was in a great deal of pain.

Smile


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Originally Posted by SmileADay
Anyhow, he wasn't giving me enough time to heal from my surgeries before telling me he was unhappy because he wasn't getting enough sex and it was usually nonverbal communication that I could not ignore. I could tell he was making a great effort not to bring it up, but I was also dealing with the not so subtle hints along with the side effects of him not getting enough, so the guilt was their anyway. His attempts at hiding his feelings from me don't work so well.

This whole paragraph is a huge DJ. You are saying he complained with 'non verbal communication', which would be what? He is making an effort, and you are reading between the lines to decide how he feels, and then holding HIM accountable to that. He is in a lose/lose situation.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
He would come up to me at my computer and stroke my arm or kneel down next to me. I'd either tell him okay and we'd go have sex, or I'd tell him I didn't want to have sex (usually because I was hurting too much--no, it wasn't a lie) and he'd just slink away and go to his computer. There was never any indication that I was misreading his body language. I've told him many times that I really wish there was intimacy between us that did not have to lead to intercourse.
He'd often get mopey when he wanted sex (not a huge turn on). We were already at the point where he wasn't initiating anymore because any kind of rejection was too painful for him. I did my darnedest to initiate once a week. I knew he was looking at porn nightly regardless and he had started getting insistent that we be more adventurous and fun. Turns out fun sex isn't very easy when you can't lay on your stomach, sides, or even lean over to pick something up. I had maybe a month or two all last year where I could lay UNcomfortably on my side. So, it pissed me off when I decided to have sex with him and he'd push me to do something other than lay on my back when that was the ONLY position that resulted in discomfort...everything else was too painful and I told him as much. I developed a take what you can get or go away attitude. And he got really sad and mopey. Now he is pretty much sad and mopey whenever we talk and I'm pretty unpleasant about it. It is NOT attractive. I took a picture of him (with his permission) to show him what I'm seeing and why that's part of why I don't want to spend time with him. I promise I wasn't doing it to be mean. I really want him to see through my eyes for a moment.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
He'd do the same "nonverbal" communicating when I was in bed hopped up on hydrocodone and already starting to fade. Rarely, I would bring up the topic of sex because I was starting to feel so resentful. That resulted in him telling me how hard he was working to make me happy. There was a point this past summer where I seemed to get through to him that I didn't want him to work hard to make me happy if it was just to get more sex. I needed and appreciated the extra work he was doing while I was in recovery and I loved him for that. I explained to him that it had gotten to the point where everything he did around the house seemed to be with the hopes I'd reciprocate in the form of SF (he seemed to agree on that point). I also explained that I was overwhelmed with guilt because I felt like I couldn't ask friends for help anymore knowing I couldn't pay them back anytime soon and that it was really hurting me that I felt that same guilt with him.
Honestly, I don't want to ask him for help with anything anymore. I'm tired of feeling like I owe him.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Hugs to you Smile.

I posted to your husband. He claims he has been your "hero" for the last 15 yrs and only been a monster for the last 4 mos...8 mos to a lesser degree. I challenged him on that description based on what you have written and he has not responded to my last post in any way. So I will ask you directly...has H been your hero throughout your marriage aside from the last 4-8 mos? Is that an accurate description? Did/do you tell him this?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 217
D
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 217
I would like to remind the OP that the purpose of this forum is to help people learn and implement Marriage Builders concepts. I don't see this thread being used for that purpose. This is not a place to vent but a place to learn the program. If there is not a specific question that is being asked, we will lock this thread.


MBDenali@gmail.com
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
I understand, Denali. Bad habit.

In an attempt to stick to MB terms, I'm still struggling with balancing the understood necessity for UA with the POJA in the sense that I really don't want to be close to DH until I can somehow know that he's not just doing what he thinks I want him to do, or in this case, what MB concepts and friends are telling him to do. This as opposed to understanding and really wanting to do these things because he cares about me. In the past, the trend seemed to be that he does things for me to increase his chances of getting SF in return and when I realized that, I stopped feeling loved and he got horribly frustrated that all of his efforts were seemingly wasted (even though the things he was doing were necessary to keep our household functioning).

I've spent our marriage doing everything I could to avoid creating resentment on his part. I fear getting close to him and feeling love for him again, because I hate the person I have become as his wife. I hate the subservient wife who was scared to say no or even stand her ground and I hate the angry person I am toward him right now. I guess I feel fairly confident things will be better as long as I can figure out a middle ground, but I'm not at all confident I can do that. And even more so, I'm not confident that DH can sustain this new approach to marriage where he does things for me out of love and respect as opposed to slipping IOUs into my love bank.

Last edited by SmileADay; 01/07/15 05:15 PM.

*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
Black Raven, I need to think about your question. I certainly don't remember ever referring to DH as my "hero". I'm not sure why he would say that both because I don't remember saying that and I don't know what telling people that would achieve. That makes it sound like I've been idolizing him our whole marriage.

Smile


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 217
D
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 217
SmileADay, what is your specific question for the posters?


MBDenali@gmail.com
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
I guess my question is the first sentence of my last post:
"How do I balance the understood necessity for UA with the POJA...?"

I stated it that way because I think there has been an attempt to answer this, but I'm still struggling with how to make that work if I don't WANT to fall back in love with him until I trust his deeper intentions.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted by SmileADay
That makes it sound like I've been idolizing him our whole marriage.

I agree which is why I asked.

Either you have been dishonest.

He is being dishonest or at least has an untruthful idea of himself.

Or there is some combination of both but there is dishonesty and that is a big issue.



BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by SmileADay
I guess my question is the first sentence of my last post:
"How do I balance the understood necessity for UA with the POJA...?"

You would schedule 20-25 hours of UA time per week. worksheet here In addition you would need to learn to use the POJA by learning how to negotiate your decisions. There is a chapter on this in His Needs, Her Needs. I would work on that AFTER you have eliminated love busters and are well into getting your UA time.

  • "The reason I have so much difficulty getting couples to spend time alone together is that when I first see them for counseling, they are not in love. Their relationship does not do anything for them, and the time spent with each other seems like a total waste at first. But when they spend time together, they learn to re-create the romantic experiences that first nurtured their love relationship. Without that time, they have little hope of restoring the love they once had for each other."


  • "But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again."


  • "Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other."


  • "You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintainng a passionate and fulfilling marriage."


The Policy of Undivided Attention

Quote
I stated it that way because I think there has been an attempt to answer this, but I'm still struggling with how to make that work if I don't WANT to fall back in love with him until I trust his deeper intentions.

The program focuses on actions and not intentions. Intentions won't change your marriage but actions will. It is a series of behavioral changes that will make the difference in your marriage. As long as your husband is committed to taking those actions, your marriage can change and you can fall in love again.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,151
I don't think either of us are being dishonest. I think I must have said something to him at some point and that his how he heard it. As I've been able to get him to open up recently, I've noticed that happening a lot, which is a big part of why I've felt so invisible and misunderstood. The long term norm has been for him to bottle all of his feelings up and pretend they don't exist. I think if there is any dishonesty going on, he is being dishonest with himself.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Has he been your hero for the past 15 yrs aside from the last 4-8 mos?

Yes or No, please.

Has he been your hero for the past 5 yrs aside from the last 4-8 mos?

Yes or No?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
Page 7 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 38 guests, and 75 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Kingpin, MikaylaVaux, I.P., Alex82, Dezzeiemm
71,726 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,545
Posts2,322,787
Members71,727
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5