Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
H
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
Hi MB community,

My husband and I have been married for almost 8 years. In January my husband told me that he had, had an affair two years ago and it resulted in a child. He only slept with her twice and after he slept with her he ended the relationship. He had heard from other people that she was pregnant. Six months ago she contacted him and said that the other man she was sleeping with was not the father. At that time I had just had our second son. Prior to telling me about the affair he had only seen the little girl once. After he told me we had a paternity test done and it was confirmed that he is the father. The OW is asking for CS and that he be a part of their daughters life. I am aware that it is advised that he have NC with the OW or OC until the child is 18. However, my husband wants to be a part of the child's life and I could not live with myself knowing that there is a child out there that has NC with her father. We are in the process of going to counseling and working toward healing our marriage. My husband assures me that he has no feelings for this woman and just wants to be a part of his daughters life. Emotionally, I am still reeling from the shock and horror of all of this. All of our immediate family members know except for my brother. According to him the OW family knows that her daughter is by a MM. We have discussed him having no contact with the OW outside of the e-mail that she is to use to contact him about her daughter. We have also discussed her not being present during visitations. Until recently I was using my mother and my SIL as sounding boards and support, but I have decided against it. I don't want to further tarnish the relationship b/t my mother and my WH so i came to MB looking for support.
Any help or advice you can give on dealing with situation would be very helpful. Or an uplifting story from someone who has dealt with the OW and OC situation successfully would be appreciated. Emotionally, I am at the end of my rope. I don't want to divorce my husband, I want my marriage to work. I have read the advice and articles written by Dr. Harley. We are working on the love busters and meeting emotional needs along with POJA.


BS- 31 (me)
WH-32
Married- 7yrs
DS-4
OCD-1
DS- 8 months
Marriage Status-Trying to recover
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted By: hope4healing
Hi MB community,

My husband and I have been married for almost 8 years. In January my husband told me that he had, had an affair two years ago and it resulted in a child. He only slept with her twice and after he slept with her he ended the relationship. He had heard from other people that she was pregnant.


That's not believable. It's far more likely they were seeing each other all along and now they plan to do so using the kid as a front. The OW is tired of being noble and patient and thinks to reel him in under your very nose.

Originally Posted By: hope4healing

I could not live with myself knowing that there is a child out there that has NC with her father.


But you can't possibly take responsibility for her decision to do that to her daughter. She decided to sleep with two guys at once, including a married guy. Of course a married man can't be a father to her child. What a terrible example of a happy threesome to the poor kid.

She decided not to give her kid a father, not you. You are a good person but don't go cleaning up the messes of strangers. Her best bet is to find her own husband if she wishes to give her child a father. This girl should not have to witness her mother hustling a married man for money after getting pregnant.




Last edited by indiegirl; 03/26/15 03:38 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,860
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,860
You need to see a lawyer ASAP being that the OW wants CS.

For if she files first and goes to court the OW will get the lions share of your WH's income. So to protect you and your kids financial well being you need to file a separation and for CS from your WH. Even if you are not going to divorce your WH. You must move fast to protect yourself and your kids.

Also exactly who was present when the paternity tests were done? If you were excluded then do not accept those results. For a test could of never been done. And WH and OW are just lying. Arrange for you to be there and have your own family doctor collect the samples for the test.

NC between the WH and OW for life. If you can handle dealing with the OC then you have the OW leave the OC at a safe place, such as WH's or your parents house and you work out the time so the OW leaves the OC there before you arrive, and you are gone after you drop off the OC before the OW picks up the OC. This way you can maintain NC as well.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,434
Likes: 7
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,434
Likes: 7
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
NC between the WH and OW for life. If you can handle dealing with the OC then you have the OW leave the OC at a safe place, such as WH's or your parents house and you work out the time so the OW leaves the OC there before you arrive, and you are gone after you drop off the OC before the OW picks up the OC. This way you can maintain NC as well.

This won't work. Your marriage will not survive the presence of OC within it. As well as the distress that the child's presence will cause you, and the way that she will cause your H to think of her mother, and hear about her mother, NC will be broken at some point.

You should not consider going forward in your marriage if you wish to let your husband have his rights to his child. Either you and your children come first and only, or you need to separate.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: hope4healing
However, my husband wants to be a part of the child's life and I could not live with myself knowing that there is a child out there that has NC with her father. We are in the process of going to counseling and working toward healing our marriage. My husband assures me that he has no feelings for this woman and just wants to be a part of his daughters life.


Hi h4h, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. Dr. Harley would tell you that your marriage very likely won't make it. The path you have chosen is the most likely to end in divorce, with you competing with the OW for your husbands child support. It is also likely he will have an on-again, off again affair with her because his feelings for her will be rekindled every time he communicates with her.

But, if you want to preserve your marriage for yourself and your children, you should demand that he never see the child and never ever see or speak to the OW again. I know that sounds harsh, but the alternative is much harsher. You can't sacrifice your marriage and your children's family for the welfare of the OC.

It is not in your best interest, his best interest, your children's best interest OR the OC's best interest for your husband to be hanging around. His presence will be harmful to the OW's marriage and your marriage, which is the only security your children and the OC have. . The OC needs an intact family and that is very unlikely to happen with your H hanging around. He will ruin their marriage and yours.

Please listen to these radio clips. Dr Harley counsels a WH and a BW about an OC situation on a radio show. It was an awesome show! He walks them through how it should be handled. The husband is refusing to not see his OC and Dr Harley tells him why he needs to never have contact with the child or the OW. It is the 3-13-12 show and you can listen to it by clicking here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3684
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3685
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3686

Quote:
Any help or advice you can give on dealing with situation would be very helpful. Or an uplifting story from someone who has dealt with the OW and OC situation successfully would be appreciated.


I know several uplifting stories of folks who ended all contact with the OW and the OC.. The ones who didn't damned themselves to a life of never ending hell. Lots of divorces and wrecked marriages because they could never recover from the affair.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: hope4healing
I am aware that it is advised that he have NC with the OW or OC until the child is 18. However, my husband wants to be a part of the child's life and I could not live with myself knowing that there is a child out there that has NC with her father.


Can you live with yourself knowing this decision destroyed 2 marriages? And that your own children will live in a broken home? He will wreck the OW's marriage too. Maintaining contact with the OW and her child is selfish, reckless and destructive.

I think that's fine that you want to sacrifice your marriage for the OW, but there are many other people here involved who have not volunteered to make such a sacrifice. Namely, your children.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
H
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
Thank you all for your responses. I am still trying to figure out how to use some of the features to respond, but I will do my best. I do not believe that my husband was seeing the OW this whole time and they are using the child as a front. MY H has taken full responsibility for his actions and has not tried to place blame on her or anybody else. He comes from a broken home and does not wish that on this child. The OW is not married and from what my SIL has gathered from instagram (don't ask me why she is snooping on the OW instagram) she has a girlfriend. Yes, the OW is possibly bisexual...but that is not important. Our counselor has suggested that we see a family lawyer. The OW does not want to pursue CS through the court system. She wants my H to cover child care and medical insurance, which in our state he would be required to cover those things plus basic CS. However, I would still like some legal document stating to what has been agreed upon if we do not go through the courts.As far as the paternity test we had a legal paternity test done that was collected by a 3rd party. How I wish it was not true, but I have the documents to prove that he is the father (99.99%). I could demand that my H never see the OC, but then I would spend the rest of my life wondering if he is seeing her behind my back.I am aware that if we go this route that the chances of our marriage succeeding are against us. And I have made my H aware of this as well.


BS- 31 (me)
WH-32
Married- 7yrs
DS-4
OCD-1
DS- 8 months
Marriage Status-Trying to recover
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: hope4healing
MY H has taken full responsibility for his actions and has not tried to place blame on her or anybody else. He comes from a broken home and does not wish that on this child.


But he seems to wish that on his children from his marriage? Why is that? Staying in touch with the OW and her OC will almost assure the death of your marriage. Also, it will be harder for the OW to find a husband and father for the child with your husband hanging around. Your husband is sacrificing his marriage, his children's family and the OC's future for his own selfish interest.

Quote:
Our counselor has suggested that we see a family lawyer. The OW does not want to pursue CS through the court system. She wants my H to cover child care and medical insurance, which in our state he would be required to cover those things plus basic CS. However, I would still like some legal document stating to what has been agreed upon if we do not go through the courts.


The advice we are giving here comes from Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders. Most counselors do not understand how to save a marriage and tend to give very destrcyutive advice. Your husband should not provide any financial aide other than what is legally required.

Quote:
As far as the paternity test we had a legal paternity test done that was collected by a 3rd party. How I wish it was not true, but I have the documents to prove that he is the father (99.99%).


Just so you know, we have had other people here who faked the results in order to stay in touch with the affair partner. You really should not take them seriously and not act on them unless so ordered by a court.

Quote:
I could demand that my H never see the OC, but then I would spend the rest of my life wondering if he is seeing her behind my back.\


Why would you wonder if you knew where he was at all times? And if you do live close to his girlfriend, it is suggested that you move.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
H
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
Hi Melody,

I can not pretend to understand the mind of my husband and his thinking or rational for wanting to be in her life. I know that he feels guilty and that he doesn't want to be a dead beat dad. The OW doesn't even have healthcare for the C (OW is 23, go figure), which is a concern to him. All I can do is share the information that I receive here and apply the principles from SAA into our recovery as best as we can. I am positive that the paternity test is not a fake. Yes, OW lives close to us. She lives in the adjacent city. Currently, my H works night shift and I work during the day so it is possible for him to see her w/o my knowledge. However, he is being put back on day shift next week so now I will be w/ him all of the time.

As of today my WH has decided to have NC with the OW or OC other than providing her with an e-mail account that we both share for her to use regarding the OC. He wants to work on healing our marriage and rebuilding trust. We are in the process of creating an e-mail to send to the OW stating that she is to no longer contact my WH other than by the means provided. He still wants to be in the OC's life but he realizes that building and restoring our marriage is the main priority right now. I am sure we will have to revisit this topic again, but right now recovery is our main focus. Maybe during this time he will take heed to the information provided by Dr.Harley. I know many marriages have failed trying to continue contact with OC, but there are some out there that have made it work despite the struggles it has created. If anything I know that God knows the desires of our hearts and he can work it out.


BS- 31 (me)
WH-32
Married- 7yrs
DS-4
OCD-1
DS- 8 months
Marriage Status-Trying to recover
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Hi h4h, I am sorry to hear your husband won't be ending his affair. By doing so, he sacrifices your marriage and the best interest of your children. How do you feel about that? You don't seem to understand that you get a vote in this too but are not exercising it. Why is that? You do understand that it is your job to protect your children from your husbands reckless and selfish decisions?

Did you and your husband listen to the radio clips I posted? Dr Harley addresses this very issue with another wayward husband who chose his OC over his marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
If your husband refuses to end all contact with the OW for life, you should separate from him. There should be no contact whatsoever, not via email, not via anything at any time. And you don't want her contacting you either because it will be a constant reminder of the affair that will make you sick.

Ma'am, you need to stand up for your marraige and your children here. Don't sacrifice your marriage for an unworkable plan that was devised by a selfish wayward. You need to buck up here and apply some common sense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
There is no way your marriage can survive if OC is part of your lives. To recover, the affair must be left in the past and all triggers reminding him or you of the affair must be done away with. But the child will be a constant reminder of your husband's affair, which will prevent you from ever entering recovery. You will be triggered every time you see or hear from her, and you will be back to square one.

You may try to hide or deny the triggered feelings for the sake of your husband and your family, but the lovebank doesn't lie. It will be drained until the only thing you feel towards your husband is hate. Then YOUR children will be living in a broken home.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
It will get worse on this path.

You DO know why he is insisting on seeing her. You do.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
H
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4
Thank you all for your replies.

The A between my husband and the xOW ended in April 2013. She C him about the baby not being the OM July 2014. My husband took a paternity test Feb 2015, which proved he was the father.My H has no desire to C the xOW, he just wants to have contact with the OC. Unfortunately, this can not be accomplished without some form of contact with the xOW.

My H has put his desire to be apart of the OC life on hold so that we can work on rebuilding our M. Our COM and our M are important to him and he is putting us first by having NC with the xOW and the OC for right now. He is attending MC because he wants to not because I am forcing him to.Since he has come out about the A I have seen great changes in him. His only desire it to be in the OC life, even if it is only part-time.

I understand the concept behind NC with OW and OC. However, I witness daily the impact that not having a Father in a child's life has on children. I see it in the little girls that run the streets looking for love in the arms of men because their fathers weren't around or their single mother has all these men coming in and out of the child's life,which creates more instability. The little boy that runs the streets looking for acceptance from their peers because he does not have a father figure at home. My own niece does not have contact with her F and I see the pain and hurt that it causes her whenever other kids talk about their father. It breaks my heart every time.

I believe that I have the compassion and love in my heart to accept this innocent child despite the way she was conceived. You accuse me of not caring about my M and my children because I want my husband to take responsibility for his actions outside of his monetary obligation. If I didn't care about my marriage I wouldn't be on this forum looking for answers. I understand I do have a voice, but according to you all if my voice doesn't agree with NC, then my M is doomed. However, this is a joint decision between my H and I.I am sure to many of you it is a foolish decision, but so be it. I have heard from those of you that are pro NC with OW and OC.

So my question is for those of you who have experience with dealing with the OW/OC situation. If you decided to maintain contact with the OC how did you handle contact with the OW, CS, Custody, and/or visitation?


BS- 31 (me)
WH-32
Married- 7yrs
DS-4
OCD-1
DS- 8 months
Marriage Status-Trying to recover
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,389
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,389
The problem is not the child herself, as a person. There are marriages here where they are raising the OC - the problem is that your marriage won't recover while he spends the next two decades in continual contact with his mistress.

If you can't handle him making that choice, then it really is choosing a marriage where you are always in danger of him running back to her. Death of a thousand cuts.

She has nothing to lose by trying to win him back since he essentially wants to keep two families.

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,389
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,389
In regards to choosing custody,

If you grab a cup of coffee and read through this section for a while, you'll see a repeat pattern of betrayed wives being brought to the brink of insanity by years of competing with OW, as if it was that silly five wives show. Some end up dealing with affairs resuming.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,434
Likes: 7
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,434
Likes: 7
Originally Posted By: hope4healing
I understand the concept behind NC with OW and OC. However, I witness daily the impact that not having a Father in a child's life has on children. I see it in the little girls that run the streets looking for love in the arms of men because their fathers weren't around or their single mother has all these men coming in and out of the child's life,which creates more instability. The little boy that runs the streets looking for acceptance from their peers because he does not have a father figure at home. My own niece does not have contact with her F and I see the pain and hurt that it causes her whenever other kids talk about their father. It breaks my heart every time.

First: you are still putting your own children's real rights behind the theoretical needs of OC, if you insist on OC's right to have its bio father - your husband - playing any role beyond paying the child support that a court deems due.

Second: that picture is NOT the picture we are painting at all, but for some reason, you are being obtuse about this.

We are saying that OC actually has a chance of a BETTER future if your husband stays out of its life, and OW makes a proper relationship with a man who wants to be a husband to her and a father-figure to her child. OW has an infinitely better chance of making a go of a new relationship if OC's father isn't somewhere in the picture.

I have a brother-in-law who married when his wife-to-be had a four-year old. She basically got knocked up when she was young by a man who did not stay around. (I don't know if he was married.) My brother-in-law legally adopted her son, and they went on to have another son and daughter. The adopted son lives close to his parents and cannot remember the time when my brother-in-law wasn't his father. His children are deeply-loved grandchildren, who now have their own children, who are much adored by their great-grandparents. Our nephew tells us that he feels that BIL is his father, and he has never had any wish to see his biological father. In fact, someone in the family told him years ago that he knew where the bio-father was and could arrange a meeting. Our nephew replied that he had a father and he wasn't interested in the man who fooled around with his mother and abandoned her, and said that the subject was never to be raised again.

One of his sons then went on to meet a woman who had a six month-old, and he married her and they went on to have twins. This woman was again knocked up when she was a teenager, and she told the bio-father that he could either do a proper job of being a father, or he could bugger off. If he wanted his freedom he could have it, and she would not ask for a penny from him if he chose to leave. But if he chose to leave, he needed to LEAVE and not hang around on the fringes of her daughter's life. He has not been seen since.

That daughter (about 10 years old now) is adored by the whole family, she is seen as their daughter by us all, and she is not missing her reluctant bio father. The best thing her mother ever did was to tell the reluctant sperm donor to sling his hook. Our great-nephew, who left school without qualifications and seemed to be a no-hoper, has turned his life around and manages a branch of a major car repair chain, and supports his wife to stay at home and look after their 3 children. His wife would no-doubt have been seen as a feckless "pram-face" when she was a teenaged unmarried mother, and yet there they both are; married, stable, church-going, tax-paying, and fine parents to three fine children.

OW's future is hers to make. If she is going to live her life as the single mother who has "all these men coming in and out of the child's life", she is going to do that anyway. How will having contact with her child's bio-father change that? Is he going to make her into an upstanding mother and member of society? If so, how? How much involvement will it take from him to make her life different from the disorganised, pathetic picture that you paint if he doesn't have contact? Do you realise what you are actually giving him permission to do?

The best thing your niece's mother could have done would have been to have found a good man to be her husband when her child was young.

There is a poster, faithfulfollower, whose husband lied to her and kept in contact with his OC for years. When she discovered this she did not have the heart to stop the little boy from seeing the father he now loved, and so she invited him into her family. He now stays with her family every weekend. Meanwhile, OW spent a long time playing games to hurt her, never letting her forget that her husband and OW had a "special love" puke . faithfulfollower ALWAYS advises women in your situation to push for NC, because of the strain that contact with OC has placed on her and her children. She probably has a thread in this forum, if you care to look for it.

I'm sure you'll go on justifying your actions, but Dr Harley, whose focus is on shoring up the marriage in this seriously unfavourable situation, advises that your H renounces all responsibility for the child, except any monetary payment that is court-ordered. Your marriage may limp along, but it won't be happy with OC in the picture. OC's life could be happy, too, without your husband scuppering her chances of finding a real father.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,434
Likes: 7
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,434
Likes: 7
Here is an update from faithfulfollower where she describes how her marriage has survived contact with OC: faithfulfollower's update 2012

But here is an earlier thread where she describes how her marriage nearly floundered: An OC makes recovery nearly impossible

ff did not choose to have OC in her marriage; by the time she found out about contact, she felt that she could not reverse the situation. However, nobody in their right minds would choose to go through what she goes through weekly, or to gamble on the odds that they would make it, as she has done.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
The problem is that this isn't something you can trial run. By the time you realize how damaging contact is to your marriage the child will have bonded with your husband.

This is only his sperm, not his child. She has a much better chance of a real dad without him, wandering in and out at will. Not to mention you'd be signing up to years of misery.

I see you are trying not to be selfish, but don't sacrifice your heart. You need it to be happily married!

Even if your husband has no current interest, affairs can and are (almost always) reignited. Sometimes 20 years on.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.


However the most worrying news is that you are going to an MC. Aren't things bad enough?

I am always deeply worried about the sincerity of waywards who are keen on MC. Usually instead of doing something useful.

I'd be much more impressed by NC If I were you. The permanent kind.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 33 guests, and 65 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Ella Paradis, Lethabo, Livn1dayAtaTime, widup, Reggg
71,683 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,528
Posts2,322,563
Members71,682
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5