Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 64
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 64
She might say that all of that is "a relief" right now, but, I could really see a point coming where she is not ok with it. Not necessity the frequency part of it, but the fact that you are only having sex because she wants to and because you have made it so clear that you do not like, or have any desire to like it.

I can tell you that that is NOT something I would ok with as a wife. If my husband said I will have sex with you just because you need me to, but I do not like it, and actually have an aversion to it, I would not feel any better than I do now with the lack of sex.

Sex for most women is, mostly, about the emotional connection that it creates. You have said over and over that it "does nothing" for you. That WILL get to her after a while, even if she doesn't realize it now.
To me, it would be like having an important conversation with my husband only half listening to me, in the beginning, that might be ok, but if he does it often enough it's going to really hurt me, and make me not want to have conversations with him at all.
If my husband says "having sex with you does nothing for me, but I'll do it anyway" why would I want to do it?


BW - 32
WH - 46
D day 3/27/16
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted by Rom828
Sure which is why I am really emphasizing to her that I won't meet that need of hers (she claims it is not much of a need). However whenever I bring this up she thinks I am trying to push her away. I am not trying to push her away but I want her to be REALLY sure she will be ok with this arrangement.
.


Well I would say it's very unlikely. It sounds perfectly awful quite frankly.

No wonder she cuts you off when you speak of it. Just hearing you talking about it sounds unloving.


Yes women loathe being pestered for sex by a man with a higher drive. That's because it's not a mutual meeting of minds and feelings being expressed physically which makes it gross and animalistic. I copy your description here because I agree heartily with it. That's what sex is like when it isn't mutual or emotional.

Men (even you) can mistakenly view it as acceptable in physical release form only. They come to the woman wanting that generosity and in the beginning she is willing, but ultimately she can't escape looking at the facts. What is generous for one partner is selfish for the other - unless it's equal. Over time she gets a sexual aversion and dislikes it more and more.

In fact, I wonder if you have one as it certainly affects men too. A willingness to loan out your body selflessly and give it up to a higher drive partner creates aversion. You have that tendency and any masturbation in your past implies that you have low drive, rather then no drive. Abuse of your drive through reluctant sex would have driven it lower still.

In either case, the giving of your body to a higher drive creates untold misery in marriage. The high drive person is made to feel like an unloveable, lusting monster and the lower gets steadily sick and bored of being a rentabody. However selfless you both feel now, this is inevitable.

Dr H would have some amazing advice on how to proceed though, I'm sure. There are a number of more preferable methods to scheduling in twice monthly reluctant sex.

This is his field of expertise and his advice is free.


Last edited by indiegirl; 06/02/15 02:30 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted by Rom828
She does not like to initiate and asked that twice a month I initiate sex. I try but it's never on my mind. When I do she fairly quickly gets what she needs and then sex is over with. I don't make any attempt to try for something for me as I can feel it won't happen.
.


Most women don't initiate sex. Do you know why? This is a situation where she is going to have to nag and remind. Not good!



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
]
Originally Posted by Dr H
Usually it's the husband who has the greatest need for sex, but that isn't always the case. I am finding increasing numbers of wives who need sexual fulfillment more than their husbands. However, whether it's the husband or the wife with the greater need for sex, the one with lesser need is at risk for a sexual aversion.

In an effort to satisfy the spouse with the greater need for sex, the spouse with the lesser need often sacrifices his or her own emotional reactions. Instead of sex being an experience that they both enjoy together, sex becomes enjoyable only for the one with the greatest need. And it can become a nightmare for the other spouse. In all too many marriages, sacrifice leads to a sexual aversion, which, in turn, leads to no sex at all.

...
The symptoms of aversion to sex are fear of engaging in sex, trying to make the sex act as short as possible, finding that you need to build up your confidence and resolve before sex just to get through it, thinking of excuses to avoid or postpone sex, and feeling ill just prior to sex and somewhat depressed afterward. Some people actually experience panic attacks while engaged in sex. Your symptom of revulsion at the very thought of having sex is also a typical symptom.

Last edited by indiegirl; 06/02/15 02:30 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
R
Rom828 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Rom828
That would never work for me. If I had to limit myself to only getting my occasional need met in marriage I would never get married.
This most intimate of all emotional needs should ONLY be met in marriage. If you refuse to abide by that ideal, then you absolutely should not get married, ever.

What I meant to say is if I had to limit my occasional need with my spouse (as opposed to solo) then I would never get married. For me personally it is not an emotional need. It is purely a physical need. I'll grant it should not be that way but given my lack of emotions it's not surprising. However I have had very little sex in my life. I never slept around or hooked up with women just for sex. Morally I could not do that. I would rather masturbate then hook up with some random woman besides which nothing would happen. I would be feeling so guilty and be so uptight I'd never have success. Under the best and proper situation I can't so with a random stranger it would never even come close to happening. So I am not a guy who just wants sex but no affection or closeness. I just don't want sex and can find affection and closeness through other avenues like non-sexual contact.

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
R
Rom828 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Rom828
Sure which is why I am really emphasizing to her that I won't meet that need of hers (she claims it is not much of a need). However whenever I bring this up she thinks I am trying to push her away. I am not trying to push her away but I want her to be REALLY sure she will be ok with this arrangement.
.


Well I would say it's very unlikely. It sounds perfectly awful quite frankly.

No wonder she cuts you off when you speak of it. Just hearing you talking about it sounds unloving.


Yes women loathe being pestered for sex by a man with a higher drive. That's because it's not a mutual meeting of minds and feelings being expressed physically which makes it gross and animalistic. I copy your description here because I agree heartily with it. That's what sex is like when it isn't mutual or emotional.

Men (even you) can mistakenly view it as acceptable in physical release form only. They come to the woman wanting that generosity and in the beginning she is willing, but ultimately she can't escape looking at the facts. What is generous for one partner is selfish for the other - unless it's equal. Over time she gets a sexual aversion and dislikes it more and more.

In fact, I wonder if you have one as it certainly affects men too. A willingness to loan out your body selflessly and give it up to a higher drive partner creates aversion. You have that tendency and any masturbation in your past implies that you have low drive, rather then no drive. Abuse of your drive through reluctant sex would have driven it lower still.

In either case, the giving of your body to a higher drive creates untold misery in marriage. The high drive person is made to feel like an unloveable, lusting monster and the lower gets steadily sick and bored of being a rentabody. However selfless you both feel now, this is inevitable.

Dr H would have some amazing advice on how to proceed though, I'm sure. There are a number of more preferable methods to scheduling in twice monthly reluctant sex.

This is his field of expertise and his advice is free.

Trust me when we discuss it I chose my words very carefully. I am being more blunt here.

I had the opposite situation in my first marriage. My ex-wife turned out to have an aversion to sex. She wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible and never got anything out of it. She didn't say anything but I could sense it. Years later she admitted she hated sex but wanted to have children. I did not find it all that stimulating but was still young enough that even in that situation could get release. We were married for 19 years so that's a long time to go without meaningful sex. The last 8 years there was no sex. I was the one who felt like a creep having to ask for sex and then being put off and finally scheduled. The thing is I rarely asked. Maybe once a month at best. Despite that she later said I wanted sex all the time. Toward the end of the marriage she would not undress in my presence and took showers in the dark in case I walked in. She would not enter the bathroom if I was showering.

So in addition to my traumatic childhood I stayed a virgin until I married and then married a woman who hated sex so I have never experienced the kind of emotional sex you all describe. I don't think I was ever capable of it but who knows if things had been different in that marriage. I'll never know.

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
R
Rom828 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by Rom828
She does not like to initiate and asked that twice a month I initiate sex. I try but it's never on my mind. When I do she fairly quickly gets what she needs and then sex is over with. I don't make any attempt to try for something for me as I can feel it won't happen.
.


Most women don't initiate sex. Do you know why? This is a situation where she is going to have to nag and remind. Not good!

I can't say I know why other than tradition or already getting more than they want. Or possibly to feel wanted.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Rom828
I am a very giving person and do many things for her. Sex though is just too much for me. I have an aversion to it. I don't enjoy it and worse find it unpleasant. I am willing though to do whatever she wants to meet her needs. I just won't get anything out of it except knowing that I am meeting a need of hers.

So she has to decide if that's enough for her.

It is much more than just not getting anything out of it. You find it unpleasant and that is a critical issue becuase people don't do things they find unpleasant for long. After a while you will stop doing it altogether. If you continue doing something for which you have an "aversion" pretty soon that aversion will grow to many other things about her.

You wouldn't be doing her any favors by inviting her into such a bad situation. IT is a set up for resentment.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Rom828
[That would never work for me. If I had to limit myself to only getting my occasional need met in marriage I would never get married.

Agree 100% that you shouldnt' get married.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 2
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by Rom828
That would never work for me. If I had to limit myself to only getting my occasional need met in marriage I would never get married. I am very uncomfortable with sex. I don't want to have it anymore than I have to. I will do it for her sake but I'm not going to add to that by also doing it for my sake. It doesn't work anyhow. I simply cannot relax and enjoy sex.


You have developed a sexual aversion through forcing yourself to have sex in a way that does not give you pleasure. Each time you force yourself it will get a little worse until it results in total non performance. This is more common for women but it occasionally happens to men too.

Dr Harley has a fantastic series of steps that you can use to overcome this if you wish. It is written for women but not that hard to 'translate'. It is here overcoming sexual aversion but I agree with the others that you should first contact Dr Harley and discuss this. You may prefer not to tackle this problem.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
R
Rom828 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=Rom828I am a very giving person and do many things for her. Sex though is just too much for me. I have an aversion to it. I don't enjoy it and worse find it unpleasant. I am willing though to do whatever she wants to meet her needs. I just won't get anything out of it except knowing that I am meeting a need of hers.

So she has to decide if that's enough for her.

It is much more than just not getting anything out of it. You find it unpleasant and that is a critical issue becuase people don't do things they find unpleasant for long. After a while you will stop doing it altogether. If you continue doing something for which you have an "aversion" pretty soon that aversion will grow to many other things about her.

You wouldn't be doing her any favors by inviting her into such a bad situation. IT is a set up for resentment. [/quote]

I share your concern but I think the only way to resolve this is to tell her I won't marry her as I don't think I can be a true husband to her. We could be friends or even roommates but not married. I think she will be crushed and no telling what she will do. I would be breaking off our engagement in doing so. She would be very hurt saying she already is aware of all this and said she is ok with it. I believe she would think I was using this as an excuse to reject her for some other reason.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Rom828
So she is not agreeing to give up sex.

She will be giving it up entirely, though, when you stop meeting that need. She should not expect you to do something you characterize as "unpleasant" and for which you have an aversion. Pretty soon you will stop meeting that need entirely because people don't do unpleasant things for long. They stop doing it after awhile.

But I do think you are correct to discuss these things before she gets trapped in a bad marriage. You shouldnt' marry anyone given that you won't meet her EN's and intend on getting your own EN met outside of marriage. That pretty much disqualifies you for marriage.

Hoping you show her this thread in the interest of transparency.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Rom828
I share your concern but I think the only way to resolve this is to tell her I won't marry her as I don't think I can be a true husband to her. We could be friends or even roommates but not married. I think she will be crushed and no telling what she will do. I would be breaking off our engagement in doing so. She would be very hurt saying she already is aware of all this and said she is ok with it. I believe she would think I was using this as an excuse to reject her for some other reason.

Very much agree that is the ethical thing to do. You would help her further by not agreeing to be roommates, because it will harder for her to find a suitable mate living with you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
R
Rom828 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Rom828
So she is not agreeing to give up sex.

She will be giving it up entirely, though, when you stop meeting that need. She should not expect you to do something you characterize as "unpleasant" and for which you have an aversion. Pretty soon you will stop meeting that need entirely because people don't do unpleasant things for long. They stop doing it after awhile.

But I do think you are correct to discuss these things before she gets trapped in a bad marriage. You shouldnt' marry anyone given that you won't meet her EN's and intend on getting your own EN met outside of marriage. That pretty much disqualifies you for marriage.

Hoping you show her this thread in the interest of transparency.

I don't think of my physical need for release as an emotional need. So for me I would be not "getting [my] own EN met outside of marriage." I don't have an EN in that department.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Rom828
[

I don't think of my physical need for release as an emotional need. So for me I would be not "getting [my] own EN met outside of marriage." I don't have an EN in that department.

Sexual fulfillment is an emotional need. You can call it a physical need if you want. However, that need should not be met outside of marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
R
Rom828 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Rom828
[

I don't think of my physical need for release as an emotional need. So for me I would be not "getting [my] own EN met outside of marriage." I don't have an EN in that department.

Sexual fulfillment is an emotional need. You can call it a physical need if you want. However, that need should not be met outside of marriage.

I agree however what if you aren't marriage material and yet don't have the gift of celibacy? Trust me I would like to just be celibate.

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 64
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by Rom828
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Rom828
[

I don't think of my physical need for release as an emotional need. So for me I would be not "getting [my] own EN met outside of marriage." I don't have an EN in that department.

Sexual fulfillment is an emotional need. You can call it a physical need if you want. However, that need should not be met outside of marriage.

I agree however what if you aren't marriage material and yet don't have the gift of celibacy? Trust me I would like to just be celibate.

I would say that that does not seem entirely true. I would consider actual celibacy a refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation, which you choose not to refrain from. You would prefer to not engage in sexual activity with another person. I do not see that as celibacy, just your current preference, for whatever reason, of how you like your SF need met.

I really hope you will email Dr. Harley, he would be so helpful!


BW - 32
WH - 46
D day 3/27/16
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by Rom828
I agree however what if you aren't marriage material and yet don't have the gift of celibacy?
Well, the answer is NOT to marry someone selfishly - someone about whom you have no sexual feelings whatsoever.

Do not marry someone who has a reasonable expectation of sexual fulfilment, and extract a promise from her in advance that she will give up sexual fulfilment and never complain to you about it.

Do not marry someone who has normal feelings about sexuality, when you do not have normal feelings about it, and ask her to change for you.

Do not marry someone when you know you are not marriage material.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted by Rom828
So in addition to my traumatic childhood I stayed a virgin until I married and then married a woman who hated sex so I have never experienced the kind of emotional sex you all describe. I don't think I was ever capable of it but who knows if things had been different in that marriage. I'll never know.


It sounds highly likely that sex with a reluctant partner, feeling like a creep every single time, created a similar aversion in you.

Negative experience creates aversion. You could reverse this aversion with positive experiences and enjoy emotional sex with Dr H methods.

Certainly don't do the same thing to your fiance and expose her to unpleasant, unemotional sex. Your aversion would get worse and she would probably develop one too.

Why not email him?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted by Rom828
So in addition to my traumatic childhood I stayed a virgin until I married and then married a woman who hated sex so I have never experienced the kind of emotional sex you all describe. I don't think I was ever capable of it but who knows if things had been different in that marriage. I'll never know.


It sounds highly likely that sex with a reluctant partner, feeling like a creep every single time, created a similar aversion in you.

Negative experience creates aversion. You could reverse this aversion with positive experiences and enjoy emotional sex with Dr H methods.

Certainly don't do the same thing to your fiance and expose her to unpleasant, unemotional sex. Your aversion would get worse and she would probably develop one too.

Why not email him?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,079 guests, and 45 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5