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Thank you apples!

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I need a little help understanding negotiation and POJA.

Last night as we were on our way to town, she brought up a certain trip she wants to go on with the children. At first she phrased her questions in way that sounded like she really wanted to know what I thought and whether or not I was interested in going on that particular trip. However, I wasn't at all sure that not going on that particular trip was an option in her mind. Later in the (recorded) conversation this was confirmed to me when she said "to me it is not negotiable whether we take some trips or not." . Later she doubled down on this and said: "I feel like we will be taking trips and we need to negotiate what, when, etc." and she also said: "to me it's negotiable whether you go on trips." I said I don't like it that going on a trip or not wasn't negotiable.

My basic problem with this scenario is that she is approaching the topic at hand with the foregone conclusion that she and the children will be going on trips and my only real choice is whether or not I'm going along. My understanding of the POJA is that nothing is to be done without an enthusiastic agreement from the other guy. It seems that for her to say to me "not going on trips is not an option" violates this. I want to start from zero where both of us can put forth ideas for family activities and we decide together which ones to do and neither of us gets to say to the other one, this particular thing must happen.

Am I missing something?

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You missed nothing. Presenting the trip as a fait accompli is not just a violation of POJA, but it is a thinly disguised selfish demand, as well.


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You are correct. We have chosen to stay home this Easter vacation because we were unable to agree on a location.

Do nothing really does mean DO Nothing. Not so what you did previously.

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No nights apart also makes you remaining home a non-option.

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Thank you both for your replies!

It's a great relief to me because I was feeling anxious about this topic. I thought that is how it is supposed to work but wasn't sure if this could be an exception to poja.

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Have you read He Wins She Wins?

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Yes, at least most of it.

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Originally Posted by Pearlseeker
Yes, at least most of it.

Good! That book is helpful. I especially like how it addresses what to do when you are stuck in a do nothing position, and the do nothing is starting to hurt because no good alternatives are offered.

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Hi, Pearlseeker. I saw your post to Dr. Harley, and your wife's before that. I'm sure you'll get a good answer from him. I can see several things in your post that stand out to me as possibly being concerning to your wife.

Praying for you guys tonight, friends.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2879530 04/05/16 09:16 PM
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Thank you markos!


markos #2879531 04/05/16 09:18 PM
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I'm curious what you thought was concerning to her, care to elaborate?

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It sounds like you got great direction from Dr. Harley and the two of you are on the right track to negotiating something you are both enthusiastic about. Here's the things I picked up on. I asked my wife to read your post to see if she picked up the same things, and she did - she said she would be extremely worried if it were me saying it.

The first thing that concerned me was the comment about feeling antsy or stir crazy - it just makes it sound like a possible concern that you might just suddenly feel the urge to bolt and do what you want regardless of how your wife feels. Add a history of independent behavior, and I'm sure your wife was feeling very anxious.

The next thing that stood out to me is how much you used the word "I" as opposed to "we." You talked about your variety of interests, your activities, you needing variety of choice in what you do, etc. The wording makes it sound like there is a large chunk of your life spent in recreation without your wife. Do most of your recreational activities take place with her?

The phrase "it seems like I have not yet begun to live" was concerning to me - I would expect most wives to feel offended to feel their husband talk about them like this. When I think back to how things were for me several years ago, I can certainly empathize, but the problem in retrospect was the need to integrate with my wife and have a good marriage with her and accomplish goals together in life - that brought about the sense of fulfillment I was looking for.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2879603 04/10/16 09:29 PM
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Very good observations, thank you for bringing up those things! I hadn't thought about it like that.

We don't have much time for recreational activities. Yes I know, we should make the time but it just isn't always possible with a very tight budget and small children. About the only recreational activity I do without her is watch movies in the evening while she reads a book or something like that. It is often the last thing we do for the day and we are usually completely exhausted and the recreation is simply a bit of relaxation before sleeping.

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Is Dr. Harley working with you guys to help you find a way to spend time together in recreational activities?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2879672 04/12/16 10:29 AM
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Suggestions have been made by Sandy and I think Dr Harley also. The big problem for us is partly due to not being able to do the things we plan before we become exhausted and from my perspective anyway, often not really enjoying the time we do spend together.

Some things are happening now that I'm hopefull will help. However, I'm not sure that I want to elaborate here on the public forum.

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Back to your response to me regarding my post on feeling antsy. Would you care to elaborate on what I should do when I feel "antsy?"

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I'm very confused and really having a difficult time understanding how to go about creating a great marriage. There are several areas of difficulty. One is insufficient UA time. Another is conflict resolution. Another problem area is as described below.

I am having difficulty reaching an understanding with my wife when it is a situation where she says I did something that bothered her but she won't tell me what it was. I'm left trying to remember what was said and what bothered her but I'm often not sure at all what it was.

I have told her I would like it if she gave me instant feedback when I do or say something that bothers her but so far very little has been forthcoming. Sometimes she gets angry with me then and insists that she is giving me instant feedback and I don't know what to with that because she very rarely tells me at the time it happens.

For example: last Saturday morning we had a discussion about various issues. During said conversation she commented that in order for her to enjoy being with me I have be pleasant to be around. I asked her if I was pleasant on our date the night before. She replied, "you made a comment about sex that I didn't like." So I asked her what I said that bothered her. Then she said, "I don't think this is a good time to talk about it" and that was the end of it.

This pattern keeps repeating again and again. She will claim I did something but when I ask for an example or specifics she will either say, "I don't want to talk about it" or "I don't think this is a good time to discuss it." Often I will ask how she would feel about emailing me or I'll ask her when she would like to discuss it and that usually gets no response either. If she does respond it is often days, weeks or even months later and then it is more difficult to remember the situation.

I know she doesn't have to talk about something if she doesn't want to but how can we move forward unless I know exactly what bothered her?

Can anyone advise me on how to handle this kind of situation? Do I just need to be patient? Give it more time?

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Pearlseeker,

Many times my wife was like this and didn't want to give me information about my love busters. Most of the time it was because she felt that giving me information in the past had not helped her. In fact it used to lead to bad fights. Even after that she was usually reluctant to give me information if she wasn't feeling good about us.

Kim advised us many times not to try to exchange information about love busters in the heat of the moment but to stick to weekly worksheets. In my experience this is very good advice. It almost completely prevents fights and made it much more likely that Prisca would give me information. I advised another couple here last week to use worksheets and to not even discuss the worksheets - if he has a question, he can get help from Dr. Harley or from us to understand why she felt something was disrespectful or otherwise a love buster.

I think your wife will feel a lot better when she feels there are no love busters from you and they are all in the distant past. Ask her if she will give you weekly love busters worksheets listing times she felt you were demanding, disrespectful, or angry, or engaged in independent behavior.

It's possible she won't be willing to do this. In that case I would pick one day of the week and ask her, weekly, "Do you feel I was demanding, disrespectful, or angry during the last week, or engaged in any independent behavior?" If she doesn't tell you "no," then there's a problem that you need to look into. Let us know, and we will see if we can help.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2897738 04/24/17 01:03 PM
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I've tried all of the above with no success. I haven't asked recently about the love busters worksheets so I'll try that again.

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