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Erastis Offline OP
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Azurite has an incredible ability for being concise and accurate. Being a man of (way too) many words, I aspire to improve in this area and learn from her. It will be one more, among many areas of my life that have greatly improved through my relationship with her.

Well, there it is. The ugly reality. How. In. The. World did I ever become so deceived that I would turn from the Lord and go down a path that horrible in the name of improving our marital relationship. How could I do that to her? All I can say is that God's mercy is great, his grace knows no bounds, and His power is greater than divorce. We have a worldly price to pay, and we have certainly been paying it, but I am so grateful for the blood of Jesus that covers my gigantic sins, that puts me in right standing with Him and so grateful that Azurite chose to forgive and try again.

Something amazing occurred to me as I read this. Azurite's perspective on our beginning, our past, our failings, our recovery and our current state are the same as mine. We are both changing and beginning to come into UNITY. After 15 years! The bad experiences such as those we have been through change a person. We build walls and construct filters. Memories become distorted. Our views of each other erode. But as we are healing, those bad things are falling away. Truth is being restored. Trust is being restored. And our view of the world AND of our past is coming into oneness and unity. What a huge blessing!

Basically my position in the beginning of our marriage was a quest for intimacy with Azurite but with absolutely no idea how to be married. Very little Godly model or training, spiritual or practical. And of course that info was out there but I never looked. Mix this with a lot of selfishness and pride, and there you go. A path to destruction. The low point for me was not understanding why Azurite did not seem interested in pursuing intimacy and was not passionate toward me. I fell for the lie that I must not be enough. I supposed that the "open marriage" route would fuel her passion and satisfy my selfishness. By the time I realized what opening the marriage would cost, it was too late. What a fool I was. To this day, I know who I am in Christ like never before, and no longer struggle with how others view me, but I am still having to work on believing that I am truly loved by Azurite. That I am enough. I can logically recognize the deceit of that lie all day long, and hear her telling me the truth that I am more than enough but the mind can be a difficult thing to change. We are rapidly making progress though, so I am excited for the romantic love to return and believe it will.

In that new beginning in 2012 when I decided that I wanted to have a real, intimate, personal relationship with God, HE MET ME where I was. I can give you account after account of how he has worked miracles over the past four years in me and Azurite individually and in our marriage. Miracles of change, miracles of healing, miracles of forgiveness, of strengthening, of courage. Even the miracle of exposure as Azurite mentioned. His hand has been in this. During our recovery, just about the time things seem unbearable, He opens a door.

In all sincerity, I really do not believe Azurite and I would be here today without our commitment to each other before God. That dark D day, I could find absolutely no reason to stay with her, nor her with me, aside from Him. We made a decision to continue standing by faith and he has honored his word and delivered us. Neither of us are worthy of being married to the other, but God is worthy! And we are worthy through Him! (And therefore we WALK in that worthiness, and our ACTIONS toward each other SHOW that love, as we learn to do this.)

As crazy as it sounds, because of my love for Azurite and because of the serious changes that the Lord has worked in me over the past four years, if going through the same experience with Azurite was the only way for those changes to be made, I would marry Azurite all over again, knowing that I would have to go through what we have been through. Again. I highly recommend that others simply choose to be changed by hearing and doing God's word though, and not choosing to go down a path of destruction to find out that his word is true...

We have a long way to go, but we have come a long way. There were some periods in our recovery where I knew some things were getting missed. I truly believe that MB is the remaining key to our full recovery and I expect that our romantic love will remain as long as we continue practicing the principles taught. Only a couple of weeks into it, we are seeing progress in areas that have plagued us for many years and answers that eluded us.

I am truly grateful to the Harleys for what they are doing. In my opinion, their work is essentially bringing God's design for marriage to a practical level - bringing the cookies down to the bottom shelf. Sometimes there can be so much emotional "fog" in a bad marriage relationship that we literally need instructions on how to walk, putting one foot in front of the other. This practical teaching is what I have found lacking in so many Christian materials and counselors. Harley is teaching us HOW TO LOVE, broken down into doable STEPS, with ACCOUNTABILITY for measurable growth and long-term success.

I will end with this. I know that the common grace, psychological aspects of applying Harley's teaching will work for unbelievers as well as Christians. It is a great thing to have a good marriage, Christian or not. But God did create marriage, and one of its purposes is to mirror his relationship with us. So if you don't know Jesus, as you follow Harley's program to get your marriage on track, I encourage you to listen for the Lord's call to your heart. He wants that same intimacy with you as you are building with your spouse. He created it! And if you seek Him, He is faithful to respond. Your ultimate fulfillment is in Him.

Lord, I ask that you make your love, mercy and grace flow to the broken and hurting who are here. Heal and strengthen those who are in recovery. Celebrate with those who have been through the program and are living in freedom! Continue to be with the Harleys in their work. Fill them with your wisdom, knowledge and discernment. Help them to keep their eyes focused on things of eternal value and bless them with abundant life as they minister your love to others.

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I fell for the lie that I must not be enough.
Correction: You gave into lust and pimped out your wife.


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Moderator's note: Please post on a separate thread from your wife. Do not post on your wife's thread.


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Erastis Offline OP
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SugarCane and Prisca,

Yes, I hurt Azurite terribly. Unconscionably. Immorally. Indefensibly. And in the flesh we live in, irreparably. But God is taking both of our mistakes and turning them into something beautiful. Something redeemed. Something that we hope will result in our ability to be a vessel for Him to work through to help others.

I would say that both "just compensation" and agape love are very much at work in us. A work I believe will be completed. A work that Harley's direction is very much a part of.

Regarding forcing Azurite to do anything, there was a great deal of emotional manipulation on my part, no doubt. I believe Azurite is simply speaking to personal responsibility for her choices, as do I. Reasons, not excuses. But yes, as we all know, often there is a lot of pressure (both ways) between spouses that makes bad decisions look very appealing at the time.

Unless I am mistaken, "pimping" would require payment of consideration to qualify, which did not occur. That comment makes me feel disrespected, and we are here with our story for respectful help. The truth in itself is harsh enough, I believe.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Pimping is a appropriate, finding sexualppartners for your wife. Also, It is generally considered poor form to ask for someone's help then berate them for calling a spade a spade.

Plenty of people will sugar coat the situation. That won't help you recover.

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Speaking the truth is not disrespectful. It stings because the truth is awful.

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What would you like help with?

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believe Azurite is simply speaking to personal responsibility for her choices
We do not need you to explain Azurite's words for us. She is a grown woman, and very well spoken.

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Unless I am mistaken, "pimping" would require payment of consideration to qualify, which did not occur. That comment makes me feel disrespected, and we are here with our story for respectful help. The truth in itself is harsh enough, I believe.
Don't mince words ... you GAVE her to someone else, which is essentially pimping her out.

You see, most BHs who come here are clueless, decent blokes who (although they've made some mistakes) are completely blindsided by their wife's infidelity. You, however, not only chose to give your wife to someone else, you pressured her into giving in. That's low. And that's going to be far harder to recover from. A part of her will always remember that you gave her away -- it's going to be a very small, insistent voice in the back of her mind that is very difficult to bury.


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That comment makes me feel disrespected, and we are here with our story for respectful help.
What, exactly, was respectable about what you forced your wife through?

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The truth in itself is harsh enough, I believe.
So stop bucking it and accept it. What you have done will be seen by a lot of people (especially women) as pimping. And your recovery is going to be harder.

Getting defensive will not help you.


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Erastis,

1. Could you write a sentence using ten words or less that states what you did, without trying to say why? My life is too short to try to find it in your massive post.

2. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. But let me tell you that one of the big revelations here is that the way to have a good marriage is the same for believers and unbelievers. It looks very tacky for someone to do this, so please be slower to speak about your religious experience and quicker to do this. You wrote all those words about God and yet still it's impossible for somebody to read your post and see what you did. You are just using God as an excuse to coverup your evil rather than facing it.

3. Can you write a sentence of about ten words or less expressing what your question is for the forum?

Last edited by markos; 04/26/16 05:21 PM.

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Erastis
Yes, I hurt Azurite terribly. Unconscionably. Immorally. Indefensibly. And in the flesh we live in, irreparably. But God is taking both of our mistakes and turning them into something beautiful. Something redeemed. Something that we hope will result in our ability to be a vessel for Him to work through to help others.

Erastus, when you talk about your mistakes, try not to sound like you are singing a hymn to it.

My wife had an affair and I had angry outbursts so bad that my wife had to ask me to leave the house for awhile, but you won't catch us talking about these mistakes in glowing terms.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Erastis Offline OP
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Moderator,

I apologize. I must have overlooked in the forum rules that husbands and wives are not allowed to be on each others' threads.

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I pressured and emotionally manipulated my wife to have sex with other men to satisfy my lust. That is certainly correct. I hurt her beyond imagination. And I do not deserve her or her forgiveness. Yet she chose to forgive and stay. For that I am extremely grateful.

If a more accurate word that excludes receiving money for service is not available, then yes, I pimped my wife. Multiple times. Over months of time. I did not mean to give the impression of avoiding responsibility, and you may not have meant to give the impression of misusing words.

I do not have a problem with realizing the depth of sin and I believe it is crucial to recovery of both spouses. I do think that the best judge of whether I have done that is God, with my wife being a close second. I believe we both did that three years ago, but I am not afraid of being confronted with some new angle. If I have faced it, then I have faced it, right? I should not be offended about a statement of fact, if it's fact.

To realize the depth of my sin is to realize the depth of His forgiveness to me. In that, I find joy.

No, I do not believe in covering sin with grace. However, when a person has been delivered from such a sinful place as I have, it is certainly not tacky to be incredibly grateful and joyful about it, just as Paul was.

I do value the accountability that is offered of pointing out the depth of my depravity. However, I think there is more than one motive and way to do that and not all are constructive.

I do not have a specific question at the moment. I was speaking generally about coming to this board for help. I am sure I will have one soon.


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Erastis Offline OP
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Markos, I guess our situation may be different from many in the sense that we are 3 years along in recovery before coming here. So a lot of the preliminary issues have been worked through. The point being, that we can definitely see light at the end of the tunnel and are walking in a good deal of freedom, although we have issues left to work on.

I certainly realize after the hearty welcome that I have received that there is major hurt on this forum. Hurting people hurt people. I can say with confidence that there really is freedom beyond the hurt, and I hope you find that. I certainly don't intend to make light of our experience or others, but I believe in more than just coping. I believe in freedom, partly because we are beginning to walk in it. (Not just the past 2 weeks.)

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Originally Posted by Erastis
I certainly realize after the hearty welcome that I have received that there is major hurt on this forum. Hurting people hurt people.

Hello Erastis, welcome to Marriage Builders. You are in very good hands with Markos, and I would dearly hope you heed his advice. I would caution you against the temptation to dismiss his advice [he is "hurting"] when you hear something you don't like. Markos and Prisca are years into a healthy recovery and know this program inside and out. Hopefully you can keep an open mind because you are very lucky to receive their help.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Erastis
I pressured and emotionally manipulated my wife to have sex with other men to satisfy my lust. That is certainly correct. I hurt her beyond imagination. And I do not deserve her or her forgiveness. Yet she chose to forgive and stay. For that I am extremely grateful.
Marriage Builders does not regard forgiveness as a necessary component to recovery, but rather just compensation. Do you know the difference? Forgiveness is not appropriate when it is possible for us to pay back and rectify the damage we have caused. So, your wife's forgiveness does not get you off the hook. You need to do those things that correct for your mistakes.


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Erastis Offline OP
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Yes. I have an understanding of just compensation, and have been doing this to a degree the last three years even before I knew of that term. Both of us have. And now that I am learning about it in MB I am and will be able to do this much more thoroughly and intentionally.

My use of the term forgiveness was not written with the intent to exclude just compensation and I believe I mentioned JC previously although it probably was not clear.

I do believe that forgiveness is necessary although I feel it is highly misused. I believe it is especially important for the person who does the forgiving as part of healing and in his relationship with God. Forgiveness does not restore the loss however. Nor does it release a person from punishment under man's law. Restitution must be made where possible. Nor does forgiveness necessarily mean that we place ourselves back into the situation that resulted in injury. To me it is a release for the benefit of the offended.

To clarify, the forgiveness bit above is not a part of MB as far as I know. I am aware of that.

Thank you for prompting clarification. I am only a couple of weeks into MB so I am nowhere near being able to present MB concepts as articulately as many here would.

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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by Erastis
Markos, I guess our situation may be different from many in the sense that we are 3 years along in recovery before coming here. So a lot of the preliminary issues have been worked through. The point being, that we can definitely see light at the end of the tunnel and are walking in a good deal of freedom, although we have issues left to work on.

I certainly realize after the hearty welcome that I have received that there is major hurt on this forum. Hurting people hurt people. I can say with confidence that there really is freedom beyond the hurt, and I hope you find that. I certainly don't intend to make light of our experience or others, but I believe in more than just coping. I believe in freedom, partly because we are beginning to walk in it. (Not just the past 2 weeks.)

Suggestion: be slower to speak and quicker to listen. Listen more.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Erastis Offline OP
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After reviewing other posts and my original post, I realize that I have made a mistake. In my ignorance, I posted insensitively. I assumed some things about the forum that are wrong. In sharing things that were truly heartfelt, I ironically violated at least three attributes of the Godly love I was trying to speak from. I apologize for that mistake and for the hurt that my insensitivity caused. It has resulted in some valuable feedback in an area which I still need work.

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