Hello, I have been lurking for a while and doing lots of reading. My husband and I have struggled with communication our whole married lives. We are finally getting close to empty nest and retirement and really want to learn how to be fully happy together. We have read His Needs, Her Needs, and some of Lovebusters. Hubby has printed off several questionaires, but we have yet to complete them. We are really struggling lately and I am feeling so stressed, like my head is going to pop off. My husband is stressed as well. One thing I (we) have always had a problem with...when I share with him how I feel, he replies that he feels the same way. While I understand that of course he has feelings too, I can never bring up my feelings and talk about them and feel heard because he always says, well, there are two of us, we can't just talk about you. does anyone have any ideas how I can feel heard by my spouse without him feeling it's "all about me"?

Hi Barigirl, welcome to Marriage Builders! Can you give an example of a conversation where you talked about your 'feelings?" I am not sure I follow. Here is a guideline of what constitutes a great conversation: here

Hi! Wow, thanks for the quick response?

Example conversation....well, today after work, after several days of quarrelling, I told hubby I felt sad and hopeless and so very stressed. And that I feel that he doesn't value me. His response... I too, feel sad and that you don't value me.
This is a decades long problem for us in that I don't feel heard when he just repeats back yo me what I say to him.

Another example..I have always felt judged by me spouse as not be a "good enough" person. When I share this feeling with him, he says....well, I have always felt you judge me too. Grr.. brick wall, impasse...
Thanks for the link, I read it through and will again. I was hoping it would address this situation.

What you really seem to be struggling with is complaining, not "communicating" per se.

You make a complaint (and not very well, by the way. You should specify what actions of his bother you. Telling him you "feel judged" or that you "do not feel valued" is actually a DJ; telling him what he thinks. Talk instead about a specific thing that he did, or does, or that you'd like him to do.)...

...you make a complaint, and he nullifies that complaint by batting it right back to you. He is not saying "I feel the same way. What can we do to stop feeling this way?" He is saying "don't point fingers at me! You have three fingers pointing back at you! Take out the beam in your own eye before you complain about the speck in mine. Do you ever think how unhappy you make me, and yet I don't say anything about it. It always all about you!" And of course, that makes you upset. He is not showing care and concern for you. He is actually showing that he does not care about your complaints.

Why were you arguing, and why was it for days?

Why are you both stressed, given that you're close to empty nest and retirement?

We seem to argue mostly about independent behavior I believe. I will give some background....we both work at the same place in different departments. It is a very large organization. We carpool to work. We have only one vehicle, a newer one, which is a first for us. I was a stay at home mom for many years, then worked part time and now full time. We lived extremely frugally and could not afford any luxuries until recent years. I have taken responsibility for our finances and saving for retirement. We are finally financially secure and now travel a bit and have plans for lots more. All my income goes into joint funds but he redirects some of his income for himself. He has a lot of interests that he spends on.
You may be able to guess that one thing we argue about is that he wants to direct more money to his interests while I want us to spend any extra money on interests we share.
We begin conversations with the best of intentions but they generally go bad quickly. I have always felt very judged by him. In terms of money, he implies I am cheap, selfish, etc. He insists that I answer the question...what will happen to our marriage if our circumstances change and we have no money?
Right now, he has been offered overtime at work. We discussed whether he would work. I know that he wants to keep the cash from this for his own interests. I said that if we were to forfeit the time together, I would like the money to go toward financial goals we share. He said he knew that would be my answer. He agreed to leave it at that for now. And then he was cold and had a martyred air.
We have been talking about MB principles for a while and we read over the 4 rules to a successful marriage just the day before. I stressed to him that I really needed to see him demonstrate the principles of care and protection.
After we had our cold little chat re the overtime, I spent the afternoon at my desk feeling despair and like what is the point? So after work, I told him I was feeling at the end of my rope and very stressed out. The response to that was where I started this thread.

This is so awful that I do not know where to start. The separation of your money into "joint" and "his" should not be the way a marriage operates. Neither should there be "his interests" that are kept in his domain and that are off limits for your influence.

This is so far from the kind of marriage that Marriage Builders envisages. An MB marriage is integrated, which mean that the two of you become one in your decision making, leisure time, money....everything. You can have your own interests if your marriage is happy, you are in love, you spend at least 15 hour per week out of the house on dates, and you both agree to each one of the interests that the other wants to pursue.

Far too many people use their separate interests as a way of getting away from a bad marriage. That is the kind of solution that most of us here used before we found MB. We did not learn to resolve the conflicts and differences in our marriages, and we did not learn to create marriages where we were our spouses' best friends, spending most of our time together. Instead, our time together was miserable and ridden with conflict, and we also had small kids for some of that time. The solution was to lead independent lifestyles, going out alone with friends, putting time with friends far above time with our spouses, using our spouses to babysit the small children while we did something else, without our spouse...

...The result for many of us was that one spouse had an affair, and for others, the misery was so great that depression, gambling, and all manner of things ensued.

If you have read any of Dr Harley's material, and if you have listened to the radio show, you will know that this must all stop. The problems as I see it is that you husband is openly antagonistic to you, and pretty much refuses to recognise that you are in despair. if he doesn't wake up and identify his marriage as the most important thing in his life, and start doing whatever Dr Harley recommends to put it right, you will continue not to have a marriage - and what will you do about that?

Thank you, Sugarcane, for your response and insights. I agree with all you have said. And we have dealt with all this throughout our 37 year marriage, 7 children and 23 foster children. I should clarify that some of his interests are ones he wants me to share. Charitable giving and setting up education accounts for our 5 (more to come) grandchildren. We have always donated above my comfort level. He is very Catholic and devout. I converted early in our marriage and gave it my best for 20 years but never felt I was a "good enough" Catholic for him/ his family. So I quit trying to be a round peg in a square hole. That was 15 years ago. He feels lonely without me at church and says it is hard for him when he sees other couples there. He has never asked mr outright to return or asked what it would take for me to attend with him. Not that I know the answer to these questions. He never misses a Sunday even when we go away for the weekend or travel. First thing he does is find church times. I don't get a say of course because his religion demands his attendance. I mention this because of him saying we should give more to is church or sponsor a child. His other interests are things he does with other men, golf, pool, cards, etc.
I tell him that now should be our time, after having worked our guts out and sacrificed for all these years. He replies that I should be grateful for where we are at and that if we can't be happy where we're at we won't be happy with where we are going. He says we are responsible for our own happiness, that we can choose to be happy.
I wish he would hear my despair. When I tell him my love bank is very low and that I think about separating, he says his love bank is low too and that he thinks I am just looking for excuses to leave. We do have a lot to be grateful for and our marriage could be so awesome.

The more you write, the worse the picture.

Your husband needs to learn that to serve God, he must serve his marriage. Attendance at church is not a Christian requirement, at all times under all circumstances. When he took his vows to you before God, he vowed to become one with you, and to honour and cherish you (or similar words). He is not fulfilling his duty to God by putting church activities above making you happy, and using POJA in everything he does.

"He says we are responsible for our own happiness, that we can choose to be happy."

He is telling you that he is giving you all he is prepared to give, and that you'll just have to accept that. Well, this is not good enough for marriage.

Would your husband agree to speak directly to Dr Harley? Dr Harley is a conservative Christian, and every single aspect of the MB programme is Biblically justified (and even commanded).

Dr Harley has a daily radio show, and he often speaks directly to pre-booked callers. I think Dr Harley would jump at the chance to explore your husband's understanding of his duties as a Christian and as a husband, and I think he would give him much to reconsider. Could you ask your husband about his willingness to talk to Dr Harley?

If he won't talk on the radio, Dr Harley will communicate with him by email. Obviously, a live conversation is preferable to email, which is why I suggest the radio show but many people have benefited from email correspondence with Dr Harley. Are you willing to ask your H about this?

Also, please get Dr and Joyce Harley's book Draw Close. It shows the Christian basis of everything in the MB approach.

...and ask you husband to read it! He is the one that it would help the most. He is going about being a Christian husband in entirely the wrong way.

Hi, Barigirl,

It's Dr. Harley's position that married people need to make everything in their life subject to the policy of joint agreement: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If you want to have a happy marriage, then whatever you do, you must avoid doing things that your spouse feels reluctant about.

That even includes going to church. I was raised to believe that a good Christian needed to be in church "every time the doors were open." After I got married my wife became more and more reluctant about attending church twice on Sundays, to the point that I could see how upset she was every time I left on Sunday nights. After I tried applying the policy of joint agreement to this area I discovered my wife became a lot more enthusiastic about church and our life together - but we never go to church unless we are both enthusiastic.

It is Dr. Harley's experience that when a couple makes any exception to the policy of joint agreement, that area of life eventually leads to the failure of the marriage.

Will your husband contact Dr. Harley on his radio show? That would be the best way for Dr. Harley to present his case to him and hopefully persuade him that God wants him to have a lifestyle where everything he does is subject to his wife's feelings. Would your husband post here?

I can certainly ask my husband to speak with Dr. Harley. We are in Canada, does this make a difference? Maybe email would be better for this.

My husband enjoys debating things like this but I should point out that Catholic is a different ball of wax to him. "The one true church instituted by God" he believes. I shouldn't say "believes" because he says it isn't what he believes or doesn't believe, its about "Truth". Husbands words.

So Christian marriage vs Catholic marriage for him maybe.

I don't want to paint him as all bad by any means. He is a thoughtful and generous spouse in many ways, a great father, helpful in all ways around the house with chores etc. he is a good neighbor and loves to help people out. He likes to spend time with me. Lots of good qualities. I want more, of course, to be an MB couple, in all ways.

Thank you, Markos, for helping me.

I will ask my husband about posting here although the idea makes me nervous. My initial purpose with posting on this site was not to get him away from his Church although it has been a source of contention over the years. My purpose is to have a marriage where I feel like an equal partner where we make decisions that benefit both of us and take both our points of view into account. He doesn't think I am reasonable and rational on some subjects. I just want to be permitted to have my view and POJA when he has an opposing view.
As far as church goes, I wouldn't ask him to give up something that literally defines who he is. Even though I admit to feeling he is not reasonable or rational on the subject (big DJ, I know).

But, for all that, he is making you miserable. All of the good qualities that you list do not compensate for the effect of his neglect on you.

He is asking you to change your feelings, and you have been doing your best to do that. The result is that you are very unhappy.

Trying to change your feelings, and trying to be happy in an unhappy marriage, won't work. Changing both of your behaviours, in the right way, WILL work.

This is is so wrong. "Church" does not literally, or even figuratively, define who he is.

I should have said..his faith. His faith and his church are intertwined to him. Not sure I am articulating his thoughts/ beliefs correctly.

Yes - but my point is that "faith" is not "church". He is misapplying Christianity, and he needs a good talking to, from Dr Harley. Have you composed your letter yet?

Sorry...have I composed my letter yet? What does this mean?

Sorry, I'm posting to a few people, telling them all to contact Dr Harley. I confused you with one of them.

I meant this:

I should have suggested that you ask your husband about talking to Dr Harley, but that you also talk to him yourself, right now. You don't need your husband's agreement to do this; this is a health and safety POJA exemption.

Write Dr Harley an email today, to the radio show address, telling him what you have told us. You can do this quickly by cutting and pasting the statements from your various posts that describe the problem (or of course, you can compose an mail from scratch). Ask what you should be doing now, even if your husband won't agree to go on the show, or to write to Dr Harley himself.