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Originally Posted by AlexF
By the way, how would you handle this?
She agreed to close the last loop (a professional networking site) but we had to fight about it. Her career is very important to her, but it was easy to be contacted by people through this network.

Is her excuse (it's strictly professional) a logical/valid one?
Or does she now just have to do anything I say?

She feels like she is loosing her identity and she feels like I'm treating her like a child.

You're being gaslit here.



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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by AlexF
By the way, how would you handle this?
She agreed to close the last loop (a professional networking site) but we had to fight about it. Her career is very important to her, but it was easy to be contacted by people through this network.

Is her excuse (it's strictly professional) a logical/valid one?
Or does she now just have to do anything I say?

She feels like she is loosing her identity and she feels like I'm treating her like a child.

You're being gaslit here.

Your W has been gaslighting you your entire M. It is very very clear to see throughout the things you have said on this entire thread.


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
IB is Independent Behavior. This is the opposite of POJA (never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse) which is a necessary ingredient for a good marriage.

Your W was commiting IB by having a relationship with the OM against your wishes prior to M and early in M.

When we say a person is still wayward in recovery (when NC has been confirmed), it is because they are still clinging to their IB and/or SSL.

She's not clinging to her IB. The opposite. We spend almost every hour of the last two months together working from home.
This is why I'm afraid that when she goes back to working in the office that she will have her period of withdrawal of OM

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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by AlexF
By the way, how would you handle this?
She agreed to close the last loop (a professional networking site) but we had to fight about it. Her career is very important to her, but it was easy to be contacted by people through this network.

Is her excuse (it's strictly professional) a logical/valid one?
Or does she now just have to do anything I say?

She feels like she is loosing her identity and she feels like I'm treating her like a child.

You're being gaslit here.

Yes I know. I took action and changed her login account and password and going let her access it under my supervision.

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Originally Posted by AlexF
Originally Posted by SusieQ
IB is Independent Behavior. This is the opposite of POJA (never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse) which is a necessary ingredient for a good marriage.

Your W was commiting IB by having a relationship with the OM against your wishes prior to M and early in M.

When we say a person is still wayward in recovery (when NC has been confirmed), it is because they are still clinging to their IB and/or SSL.

She's not clinging to her IB. The opposite. We spend almost every hour of the last two months together working from home.
This is why I'm afraid that when she goes back to working in the office that she will have her period of withdrawal of OM

You just gave a great example of IB not 2 posts ago. lol. Yes she is still committing IB.


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Originally Posted by AlexF
She agreed to close the last loop (a professional networking site) but we had to fight about it.

<clip>

She feels like she is loosing her identity and she feels like I'm treating her like a child.

If she was following POJA, there would be no arguing or talk about "losing her identity".


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I'm pretty sure I've already posted it elsewhere on the thread but these are the problems I see:

1) Poly needed (this is standard advice for a WS who will only admit to an EA but they had opportunity for a PA. Most WS will only admit to an EA when the opposite is true.)

2) Exposure to OM's BW - you said you are pretty sure she didn't read your FB message. That's not going to work. She needs to be exposed to. Leaving this gaping hole will backfire on you.

3) Her IC. The talk about "losing her identity" and feeling like she's "being treated like a child" doesn't surprise me. That is exactly the kind of talk you hear from someone who is getting IC. Along with the other language you've used in this thread. It's clear to me your W gaslights you and uses her childhood and other issues to play the victim card.

4) There must be a way that you don't have transparency if you are questioning NC at this point. Maybe it is at the job, even though I think you gave conflicting information about in the thread. This was a 10-year affair where she made contact presumably part of the time at work. I'm not sure how you can resolve this but this again, will probably backfire on you, if she has unfettered access to email and social media at her workplace.

I'm not going to be back to argue any of these points with you. It's up to you to figure out how to resolve these things but my prediction is that there will be more d-days in your future if they aren't resolved.


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
I'm pretty sure I've already posted it elsewhere on the thread but these are the problems I see:

1) Poly needed (this is standard advice for a WS who will only admit to an EA but they had opportunity for a PA. Most WS will only admit to an EA when the opposite is true.)

2) Exposure to OM's BW - you said you are pretty sure she didn't read your FB message. That's not going to work. She needs to be exposed to. Leaving this gaping hole will backfire on you.

3) Her IC. The talk about "losing her identity" and feeling like she's "being treated like a child" doesn't surprise me. That is exactly the kind of talk you hear from someone who is getting IC. Along with the other language you've used in this thread. It's clear to me your W gaslights you and uses her childhood and other issues to play the victim card.

4) There must be a way that you don't have transparency if you are questioning NC at this point. Maybe it is at the job, even though I think you gave conflicting information about in the thread. This was a 10-year affair where she made contact presumably part of the time at work. I'm not sure how you can resolve this but this again, will probably backfire on you, if she has unfettered access to email and social media at her workplace.

I'm not going to be back to argue any of these points with you. It's up to you to figure out how to resolve these things but my prediction is that there will be more d-days in your future if they aren't resolved.

I have no clue what all the abbreviations in your last posts mean.
IC?
NC?
She has unlimited access at her job to different computers if she really wanted to. The majority of the contact with OM was initiated at her job via a messaging app on her personal phone, but she used her work email to talk to him a lot too.

Her personal phone number has been changed, work phone number too, work email is changed, personal email is shut down. All social networks have been shut down. I'm still looking for loopholes, advice is welcome.

I will take up your advice about the other things. Thanks for helping.

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What should be the workflow when my W feels the need to contact OM in the future?
Should she immediately contact me when she feels the urge?
If yes, how should I react? What do I literally have to say if this happens?


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You really need to expose to OMBW. Can you hire a PI to track her down?

The OMBW is your biggest support to keep this affair from starting up again.


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You really need to expose to OMBW. Can you hire a PI to track her down?

The OMBW is your biggest support to keep this affair from starting up again.

OM and OMW are LAT. I do not expect any support from OMW at all.
They basically have an open marriage.
On top of that, I have no proof of the meet-ups and the chats are all childish and playful, but no proof of adultery. The adultery and the EA was happening in my W's fantasies.
You can tell me I'm gaslighting myself, but I have no black on white proof of anything that would stand in court.

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Originally Posted by SusieQ
4) There must be a way that you don't have transparency if you are questioning NC at this point. Maybe it is at the job, even though I think you gave conflicting information about in the thread. This was a 10-year affair where she made contact presumably part of the time at work. I'm not sure how you can resolve this but this again, will probably backfire on you, if she has unfettered access to email and social media at her workplace.

She met OM at her job. That is the reason I don't have transparency. She has the authority at work to invite anyone into a meeting room. (OM does not work there, and has nothing to do with the firm, W invited him)

Financial issues make changing jobs or informing HR extremely difficult.

Is there, in your experience, a way that OM could get a restraint order from her job without her getting fired or creating very awkward situations?

Please understand, I want to save my marriage. I do not want to lose our house and everything we worked for in the last 15 years.

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I need help writing another exposure letter to OMW.
Still no reply, pretty sure she didn't get/read it. I tracked down her work email instead of her FB.

I have very few evidence to back up my story.
How should I go about this?

The EA was happening in my W's fantasies. I have no proof of that. She admitted this to me and I have read her secret journal. That journal is destroyed. (Yes, that's a mistake, but I can't take it back...)

They had a lot of contact/talks via social apps and mail. The mails on itself were playful but acceptable among close friends, depending on your morals.

They met up a few times behind our backs. My W admitted this to me but I have no proof whatsoever this actually happened.

So the 'hard evidence' are my W confessions, and a few social media talks that I could have too with female friends. (no worries, we adjusted our views about opposite sex friendships by now).

What should I write her?

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My W wrote an emotional end contact letter to M. I was gaslighting myself that this was fine. She did tell him that she needed to break off contact, but that she will always love and miss him. Should she write a new letter, this time following the rules of dr harley? Or will this stimulate contact?

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Yes, she should write a new letter. Her letter left the door WIDE open to reinitiate contact. By saying she will always love him, she gave him the green light to contact her again. That letter was also very hurtful to you. She needs to follow the format.

When did she send the no contact letter?

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Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Yes, she should write a new letter. Her letter left the door WIDE open to reinitiate contact. By saying she will always love him, she gave him the green light to contact her again. That letter was also very hurtful to you. She needs to follow the format.

When did she send the no contact letter?

Two months ago. No contact since (to my knowledge).
Been monitoring contact ever since.

Can't the OM perceive this new no contact letter as a cry for help or as her first initiative to re-initiate contact?
I'm not looking for an excuse to not do this, I'm looking for communication flaws. I do not want OM to be thinking she's using the second no-contact letter as a test for him to up his efforts.

W is still gas-lighting herself that OM doesn't know about her real feelings because she never exposed them to him. She thinks OM believes they're just soulmates or whatever because nothing sexual happened.

Should she tell him she loves him in the (new) no-contact letter, or just follow example bellow to the letter?
I think it will be very weird that OM gets this after a few months and a romantic break up text, but I don't feel like he really gets what happened.

_______, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that _____ did not deserve.

While I cannot completely repay _____ (BS) for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness.

I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely,

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I just went back and skimmed through your entire thread. I am not sure if sending the letter now is productive, but the initial letter should have followed the format you that you pasted at the bottom of the post. She definitely should NOT express any feelings of affection or love to him.

Where are you on this checklist? Which have been done, and which haven't?

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

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_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

W revealed all information without a polly. This is not an option right now because of financial reasons. On top of that, as I've stated before, even is she passes the polly, I will still have my doubts.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

This is done

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

She send a no-contact text that was too emotional, but she clearly stated that she wanted to end the relationship. He replied that he saw it coming, and he wished her well. That's it.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

This is done


_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

We're doing this and I have monitoring app on her phone (gps)
She texts me when she arrives at her POI


_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

Have full access to bank accounts

_____Spend leisure time together.

This went well in the beginning, but we are back to arguing a lot. That's entirely my fault for bringing the affair back up every day. I just can't seem to shut up about it.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

She met OM at her job, but he can only enter the building with her approval. Records of visitors are kept, so I'll have proof if this happens. He's not a co worker.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

Doesn't apply atm.

_____Allow technical accountability.

Not sure what you mean? I have full access to all of her devices.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Exposed to her/mine parents, my brother, her friends, my friends and a few mutual friends. Her sisters don't know yet, but her relationship with them is not well so they're not friends of the marriage.

Send an exposure message to OMW on FB but she never replied so I'm sure by now she doesn't know.
I've weary about the fallout. Potential threats or violence by OM. I'm not afraid for myself, I have a concealed weapon license but I'm scared he might attack my W.

[/quote]

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It sounds like you are taking the right steps as far as Extraordinary Precautions go. The work situation is a concern though. No contact for life means FOR LIFE. She might see him at work, get triggered, and you are back to square 1. She should find a new job.

For now, I would not have her send another letter. Instead, spend time recovering your marriage.

How are you doing with your 15 hours of UA time?
What are you doing to reconnect and meet each other's needs?

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OM does not have any business at her office and does not live nearby. The only reason he went and met her at her office is because she asked him to come over.

The chance that she will walk in to him in the city is a greater concern for me. Moving is not an option for me.

15 hours of UA are not a problem.
We're going out for dinner, walking, lot's of talks about our love busters/deposits, doing things in the house.
I was neglecting her EN a lot so I'm working hard on that personally.

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