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#2892119 01/04/17 04:16 PM
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Its been 4 months since the affair was exposed, all steps except moving have been taken. I'd say we are in some sort of recovery, however WW is unwilling to follow the MB plan, she didn't like that SF was a legitimate emotional need, because she uses as justification for the A (a legitimate issue between us, that I've since improved, but she wont let it go). My WW will not tell me that she's committed to us or me, she says she doesn't want to say it before she feels it, but for me it feels like torture. Like she's holding onto all control and using that to continue to keep me on edge that if I screw up she'll be gone. I don't know why, but I feel that if she commits to me and us I'll feel a huge sense of relief or affirmation. I guess what I'm seeking is affirmation that things will be ok and that if there are mis-steps in the recovery process it wont be the end.
She says she is trying and that her actions should show me that, and I do see improvements, but there's this lingering fear that I cant shake. I feel that I'm competing with the fantasy of the A, and she's waiting to see if I can compare before she decides to commit, but I view the world in the opposite sense, where you need to recommit and then work on creating the feeling.

Is this a legitimate request? Do I just need to give it time? OR is this just me trying to make the pain go away faster?

I think what I'm struggling with is the part of Plan A where it's meeting the WS top emotional needs without anything in return, which is kind of where we are. My emotional needs are not being met and there's an unwillingness to do so. What is hard is that she wants more IC, which we've been working on, but I know that's what OM provided, now I'm struggling with the insecurity that I'm not as "fun" as OM and its hard to meet this emotional need, cause I feel like I'm forcing it or constantly comparing myself to OM, because I know she's comparing it to what they had. Any advice is appreciated!

Messy #2892132 01/04/17 07:05 PM
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Have you read SAA? Sue in the book never said sorry for her affair and Dr. Harley has said this is very common for wayward wives, but wayward husband's should show the regret.

Have you confirmed no contact between her and OM?

How much UA time are you getting?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Messy #2892134 01/04/17 07:44 PM
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There seems to be some back story missing here. I think you need to start again and give us details about this affair, and tell us what makes you think that it has ended. Since you mention the need to move away, this suggests that OM lives quite close to you. Is that correct?

Who was he - a colleague? A neighbour? How did they conduct their affair? Did they go to hotels? Does she travel for work? Did they use their homes?

How did the affair end? How did you discover the affair?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Messy #2892138 01/04/17 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
I feel that I'm competing with the fantasy of the A, and she's waiting to see if I can compare before she decides to commit

Hi MEssy, your story is missing background, but the above comment is an indicator the affair is still active. Is there a reason you believe it is over? Do you have actual proof it is over? How close do you live to the OM?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Ok, so I've been reading here for weeks, and fighting the urge go into details, because there's just so many, and fear she'll find my posts and be upset for telling the world. But after watching the events of the 'caught snooping' thread unfold and seeing the similarities I've decided it would be best for me and my marriage if I seek wisdom here.

Here's the backstory you requested:
Wife confessed to feelings for one of my best friends after I pushed, initially, she denied feelings and said the emotional disconnect between us was because she was unhappy with me. This was early September '16. I was devastated, obviously, and went into a severe bout of anxiety/depression. About a week after she confessed these feelings, but told me she wanted to work on us and would change how she was around OM, so as to not make me jealous or hurt, I confronted OM and told him to end any 1 on 1 communication. Due to him being my best friend and both of them being so involved in our church, I foolishly trusted them. Fast forward 4 weeks, I finally got hard evidence that it was an EA, hundreds of texts over a 3 day family vacation and many hours on the phone over the previous weeks. I confronted WW with the evidence, said I know she was having an affair, I told her I wanted to work on things, but she needed to choose, me or him. She choose me and agreed to counseling. I agreed that we would continue our church activities with OM for a week (not knowing the severity of the addiction). After that week she agreed to no contact, and began adjusting work schedule so they wouldn't see each other (worked together). A week and a half later, my tracking indicated she was at his house. I drove there and caught them together, both saying the 'just needed to talk'. It was the day of our first counseling session and she wanted to make sure they were on the same page, cause she knew I'd take it hard when she told me they had discussed their feelings for each other. At this point I was so devastated and hurt I went full exposure. My family, Her family, our friends, and our pastors. (she resents exposure btw).

Since exposure she went into a depressed state, and was only doing counseling cause she had too. Our counselor gave us SAA, which WW stopped reading because it gave me too much "control". She is holding onto resentment for our physical relationship, my lack of parenting, and selfishness. I fully own my part in creating the vulnerability of the affair, I had a porn addiction and was selfish with my time which affected my parenting and her free time. The addiction was outted 6 years ago, but I still struggled off and on with it, however I'm 6 mos completely sober now and have taking drastic steps to stay that way. Also, I've fully changed my behavior to eliminate my 'taker'.

Now I'm trying my best to be in full plan A while she decides if staying is what she really wants. I struggled with not wanting SF from her and that was definitely a LB if I tried anything. Also my anxiety went berserk, and I learned I used sex as my drug for anxiety - dealing with social anxiety stress, and anxiety that we were growing apart and needing to be wanted (I'm an anxious attacher, if you've read much on attachment theory). Anyway, I started anti-anxiety meds and that has helped, within the last month I can manage it such that I'm no longer letting it turn into AO or DJ.

I guess bottom line, I'm struggling to stay positive in plan A, it's been 4 months of NC, but she was so devastated and depressed having to give up both OM and her fulfilling job that she has just barely started to come out of the fog. What I'm struggling with is patience, I know its worth it to be patient, but I just am starving for some of my top ENs to be fulfilled, basically I just want to be wanted again. So that wears on me and I have to fight LBs hard as I try to make her take some more positive actions and 'speed up'.

Appreciate advice so I can ensure I'm doing everything possible to restore the marriage.

ML - I am fairly confident affair is over, I had tracking for a few months, plus access to her phone, and she has friends to hold her accountable to NC as well.

Messy #2894226 02/07/17 02:27 PM
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I'll also add that the last month has shown improvements, which is why I believe she's coming out of the fog (albeit slowly), however it was early Oct since last contact, so for her to start coming out of the fog has been good. My evidence of 'out of the fog' is improved attitude (not as irritable), more attentive to household and kids, we've had numerous dates and a weekend away that went very well, great UA and IC on those dates. Less arguing/LB. I guess it's just my anxiety that is driving me nuts to have her say she is committed, when in reality I'll know it when she shows it... I'm just struggling with feelings of 'you messed this up, you better take action to fix it' instead of being stuck trying to win her back.

Messy #2894227 02/07/17 02:42 PM
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So neither you or your WW have ANY contact with OM?

Has she quit her job?

Have you quit going to shared church?

Are you making plans to move?


Messy #2894228 02/07/17 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
I am fairly confident affair is over, I had tracking for a few months, plus access to her phone, and she has friends to hold her accountable to NC as well.

What kind of tracking did you have? Does this indicate that you are no longer keeping tabs on her?

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It generally only takes a couple weeks for a WS to start coming out of the fog, if there really is true 100% no contact.

I suspect that there was lingering contact for much longer than you think.

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You also sound like you continue to lovebust through AO's and DJ's, and 'arguing' in general.

You need to STOP the lovebusting.

You will NOT win her back if you lovebust her, you will only make the OM look like a far better option.

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Yes, neither of us have any contact with OM.
She quit her job at shared church (source of much depression, because she finally had an identity outside of being a mom)
Yes, we quit going to shared church. This is a huge issue and why I think the fog has lingered, she really resents exposure because she had to quit and we left the church. All of her friends and "people" we at the church. She still has constant contact with a few close friends who go there and I know it gets talked about a lot. Also she continued to see things and photos of OM on social media relative to church. It took her a few weeks to disconnect from her social media links to the church. Even though she will say it we cant go back, I know she really wants to go back. We have found another church we like, but its too painful for her to attend at this time, I'm not pushing it because its a LB for her if I try to.
Yes, we are discussing moving about 25-30 miles away, but we are not financially ready to move just yet. I've mentioned numerous times to move much farther, but she doesn't want to leave friends and family.

Tracking was via the phone. She resented it because I had an AO on our anniversary when she stayed out all day and said she was headed home, but stopped at the mall on her way... after that incident we had a new tracking app so she could watch me as well and she did it begrudgingly, it brewed resentment for me cause it felt like a 'punishment'. It also increased my anxiety because I was constantly watching. We discussed how it made both of us feel and since stopped using it. She is good about telling me her plans for the day and checking in when she moves from one place to another.

Yes, I need to stop lovebusting. I went into a severe bout of depression/anxiety and did a terrible job of managing LB. I would do well, but then something would happen that would trigger my anxiety or fear of her leaving and I'd lose it. The last 4-5 weeks my medication has kicked in and I'm really adapting the mindset of "love is patient". It felt unfair that I had to win her back, after I was the one that was hurt, and I let my anger and pain from the hurt interfere. Which is why I turned here, I need help keeping the mindset of plan A. It wears down when my ENs and love bank are not getting filled.

Messy #2894236 02/07/17 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
YShe still has constant contact with a few close friends who go there and I know it gets talked about a lot. Also she continued to see things and photos of OM on social media relative to church.

This is not NC.

Continuing to follow OM on social media or hear about him from friends, will keep her perpetually in the fog. This is one reason she has not fully withdrawn from him yet. This will keep him front and center of mind for both of you, and will prevent recovery from even beginning.

Messy #2894237 02/07/17 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
Tracking was via the phone. She resented it because I had an AO on our anniversary when she stayed out all day and said she was headed home, but stopped at the mall on her way... after that incident we had a new tracking app so she could watch me as well and she did it begrudgingly, it brewed resentment for me cause it felt like a 'punishment'. It also increased my anxiety because I was constantly watching. We discussed how it made both of us feel and since stopped using it. She is good about telling me her plans for the day and checking in when she moves from one place to another.

Monitoring someone after an affair is very important. This is because affairs are so addictive, it is very difficult to stay away from the high. Unfortunately, simply having a tracking device on her phone that she knows about, is not enough to prevent her from seeking out that high. It is very easy to circumvent.

For the record, both my H and I have tracking devices on our phones and use them without each other's knowledge whenever we want. I harbor no resentment for this AT ALL, I welcome him to track my whereabouts whenever he wants to. What about that makes you feel resentful?

Messy #2894238 02/07/17 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
Yes, I need to stop lovebusting. I went into a severe bout of depression/anxiety and did a terrible job of managing LB. I would do well, but then something would happen that would trigger my anxiety or fear of her leaving and I'd lose it. The last 4-5 weeks my medication has kicked in and I'm really adapting the mindset of "love is patient". It felt unfair that I had to win her back, after I was the one that was hurt, and I let my anger and pain from the hurt interfere. Which is why I turned here, I need help keeping the mindset of plan A. It wears down when my ENs and love bank are not getting filled.

Here is what I hear...."yes, I need to stop lovebusting. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" because NONE of those are acceptable reasons or excuses for your abuse. AO's are abusive. AO's and DJ's are NOT in line with Plan A. What you are telling me is that you have never done Plan A. Filling needs while also lovebusting to this extent, is like putting rocks in a bucket with a giant hole in the bottom. It is no wonder she is unsure of whether to invest in the marriage.

She's owns the affair. You own your lovebusting.

Just STOP.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Messy
YShe still has constant contact with a few close friends who go there and I know it gets talked about a lot. Also she continued to see things and photos of OM on social media relative to church.

This is not NC.

Continuing to follow OM on social media or hear about him from friends, will keep her perpetually in the fog. This is one reason she has not fully withdrawn from him yet. This will keep him front and center of mind for both of you, and will prevent recovery from even beginning.

Agreed. She blocked him on all social media accounts, unfortunately I can't control if her friends talk about OM, I'd like to believe they dont because they know the issue, I've tried to bring up my concerns with her friends, but she gets extremely angry and defensive. I think my concern is she still hears very much about the church which is a sore wound. She despises that we had to leave the church, granted she owns her decisions caused this to happen, she's just not letting go of the church.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
[quote=Messy]

Monitoring someone after an affair is very important. This is because affairs are so addictive, it is very difficult to stay away from the high. Unfortunately, simply having a tracking device on her phone that she knows about, is not enough to prevent her from seeking out that high. It is very easy to circumvent.

For the record, both my H and I have tracking devices on our phones and use them without each other's knowledge whenever we want. I harbor no resentment for this AT ALL, I welcome him to track my whereabouts whenever he wants to. What about that makes you feel resentful?


Resentment was on her part, she resented that I needed to "control" her. For me, knowing I could track her was perpetuating my anxiety, I couldn't focus if she was driving somewhere, I'd just watch it. Once we stopped, and it became simply communication of whereabouts that helped me relax and not obsess on it. Also, it gives us more reason to have positive communication during the day.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
[quote=Messy]

Here is what I hear...."yes, I need to stop lovebusting. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" because NONE of those are acceptable reasons or excuses for your abuse. AO's are abusive. AO's and DJ's are NOT in line with Plan A. What you are telling me is that you have never done Plan A. Filling needs while also lovebusting to this extent, is like putting rocks in a bucket with a giant hole in the bottom. It is no wonder she is unsure of whether to invest in the marriage.

She's owns the affair. You own your lovebusting.

Just STOP.


Completely agree. I've worked really hard and been successful the last 5 weeks of eliminating LB. Which I believe is why I'm seeing progress and having her start to de-fog.

Messy #2894245 02/07/17 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
[

Resentment was on her part, she resented that I needed to "control" her. For me, knowing I could track her was perpetuating my anxiety, I couldn't focus if she was driving somewhere, I'd just watch it. Once we stopped, and it became simply communication of whereabouts that helped me relax and not obsess on it. Also, it gives us more reason to have positive communication during the day.

Messy, there are a lot of RED FLAGS in your story and I would suggest upping your snooping. All this "resentment" is a sign of the FOG and that concerns me. Why is she fogged out? fog is a sign of an ongoing contact. Accusing you of "controlling" her just because you track her whereabouts is also a huge red flag. A normal person who has nothing to hide would not resent that because snooping would clear her good name. Just ask yourself if you "resent" your spouse checking on you? I sure don't. My husband sure doesn't.

Knowing where she is at all times is not "controlling." That is a ploy used by manipulative women to force her will.

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Once we stopped, and it became simply communication of whereabouts that helped me relax and not obsess on it

This makes no sense at all. How can her self reporting about her whereabouts make you relax more than some good old fashioned snooping? Snooping on my husband helped me relax and helped me grow to TRUST him. Obviously, you can't trust her word, so how does that make you relax? An illusion?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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ML - this is exactly where I'm struggling. She's convinced I was controlling, objectified her (selfish with SF), and a negligent father. All gaslighting as far as I'm concerned, because according to her it's been this way for years and she was unhappy, but never could communicate it to me, or anyone else for that matter. Which is why I know its gaslighting, it wasn't until she had a point of comparison that she determined it to be her unhappiness. She has valid reasons (my addiction, anxiety, and selfishness) but spends way too much time focused on that to justify it. IMO, she had decided she was done, but is only staying because the consequences of leaving were too severe, and so she felt she needed to 'show up' to the marriage.

I agree, I need to increase my snooping, however, snooping drives my anxiety up (cause I expect to find things) and it triggers significant anxiety about her calling it quits. It may be hard to understand if you haven't struggled with anxiety, but I've found it's healthier for me to have a more "I don't care approach" to snooping. Yes, I fully acknowledge I run the risk of more D-days, but I haven't been able to snoop and successfully manage my anxiety which in turn makes it hard for me to fully plan A, because I can't turn off the anxious thoughts of her leaving, so I struggle with a need to seek reassurance that she will stay which drives her away. I need to work on it, because I don't want to get caught flat footed by a FR.

Hence, why I started this post, she wont say that she's committed to working on the marriage, she will only say that right now she wants to try and work on things, but I know deep down, shes trying to decide if she wants to deal with the consequences of leaving. Her statement last week was "I'm not sure what we have was ever good, or could ever be fulfilling"...

I've found if I don't go near relationship talks and just 'act like all is normal' things go the best for us. So that's what I'm trying to do, full on plan A. But if feels to me like we are just ignoring the issues at hand, but maybe that's good? I don't know, that's why I need your help.

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Messy #2894257 02/07/17 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Messy
I agree, I need to increase my snooping, however, snooping drives my anxiety up (cause I expect to find things) and it triggers significant anxiety about her calling it quits. It may be hard to understand if you haven't struggled with anxiety, but I've found it's healthier for me to have a more "I don't care approach" to snooping.

That sounds like a conflict avoidance strategy to me. How can it increase your anxiety if you confirm - without her knowing - that she is being faithful? Does it give you anxiety because you know you will catch her doing something? And you would rather not know?

Quote
Yes, I fully acknowledge I run the risk of more D-days, but I haven't been able to snoop and successfully manage my anxiety which in turn makes it hard for me to fully plan A, because I can't turn off the anxious thoughts of her leaving, so I struggle with a need to seek reassurance that she will stay which drives her away. I need to work on it, because I don't want to get caught flat footed by a FR.

I don't think your goal of staying married at all cost is helping your marriage. She seems to understand you have no standards and only want to keep her around at any cost. This smacks of unconditional love which leads to neglect and abuse. She never will have any motivation to work on the marriage because she knows you will accept her on any basis no matter what.

What would happen if she left you? I predict that is what you are facing because she is clearly checked out of this marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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