My husband and I have been married almost 20 years. We are both very stubborn and free spirited. We have a problem with communication and this regularly ends in horrible arguments that make us both sick. Usually, the argument begins over something rather minor, which makes it all the more frustrating.

We recently retired and made a long distance move to a rural area. This has been our life�s dream, and we�re finally here. Achieving that goal took a lot of stress off of us, and we are looking forward to our new life.

Our new home is quite small, and during the winter our tension intensified. We both realize that being enclosed together, in close quarters, with no structure/work schedule, played a big part in the escalating arguments. We talked a lot about that, and about ways to allow each other greater physical and mental space. We are both the type of folks who like to talk, but also find time alone to be necessary. Being in a new place without our friends and family nearby, means we are each other�s primary company.

Years ago, we both read �His Needs, Her Needs� and �Love Busters�, so we are both familiar with Dr. Harley�s concepts, and have used them to help us in the past. The books are somewhere in storage, so I can't get my hands on them right now.

I can tell my husband has recently been reading the forum because of some of the words he uses, and I�ve been glad of it. He also appears to be trying to make changes to consider my point of view, make sure I am enthusiastic when we agree on something, and to rein in some annoying habits that can harm his love bank balance. I've been trying to meet his needs better; being more patient listening to him and making more sex a priority in our life. (I am an extreme multi-tasker, and he has expressed that there is never a time for him to approach me when he is not interrupting something I am doing.)

I am guilty of angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments. I�ve listened to several of the radio shows linked in the forums that deal with anger management, and am trying to do better with this. I lose my temper often when we are trying to discuss problems. I�ve been in this habit for a long time, and while I think I�ve done better at controlling myself lately, I still have a long way to go to master the state that Dr. Harley describes as �not even feeling angry�. Regarding DJ, this is because I have described my husband as passive-aggressive and a bit OCD. He has rightly pointed out that this is offensive to him, because I am labeling him.

My husband and I often misunderstand one another, and his way of dealing with it is to discuss it intensely. We analyze conversations to the point where I wish I had a tape recorder running 24/7 so we could rewind the conversation that started the argument to see what was actually said and what was not said. I think sometimes we think something, and then think we said it aloud, when we didn�t. Or we said something rather vague, and expected the other to have some solid understanding of what was expressed as if it was a decisive, concrete expression. Or we brainstormed on a topic, and one person thinks we came to an agreement, but the other thinks we just talked about ideas and came to no firm conclusion.

In theory, the analysis would be helpful. He wants to discuss the difficulty so we can understand it, and take steps to do better in the future instead of �sweeping it under the rug until it happens next time�, as he says. While these discussions sometimes work out ok, more often, they go on for hours until one or both of us snap and it becomes a screaming match. By then, there is far more damage done than if we had just accepted that we had a misunderstanding and moved on.

Honestly, I get stressed out just thinking that we are going to sit down and discuss something. For me, it�s very unpleasant. I have expressed it to my husband that I feel like I�m sitting down to listen to a lecture. He would disagree with me, but I think he does most of the talking in these discussions. He says he wants me to express myself, but I don�t think he actually hears me. He often interrupts me, mid sentence, to make a point, or ask a question. I have to restart so many times, just to get one idea across. Or the discussion goes off on one his tangents and what I was trying to get to is lost. I find it extremely frustrating because if he would just stop talking and listen to the entire sentence, he might get the answer to his question. He does this because he does not want to forget an important point, or because he wants to ask a question to better understand me. From my point of view, it�s disrespectful and infuriating. I would like him to just listen, make notes if he needs to, and then ask questions or correct a misunderstanding on my part after I have finished expressing myself. We tried the 'talking stick' method years ago, but it didn't help.

Another sticking point we have is expressing how we feel and making the distinction that this is �how I feel� as opposed to �it's your fault I feel this way�. The choice of words is very important here. My husband says I am allowed to express how I feel, but his feelings are not important and he�s not allowed to express them. I disagree. I want him to express himself, but I think he uses words that do not convey ownership of his feelings, but rather convey blame on my part for making him feel the way he feels. He says this is not true, that I am just over sensitive and I always interpret his expressions as blaming. The irony is that we both have similar feelings; he says I make him feel like he is 'a problem', and I feel as if he blames everything on me.

I really love my husband, and I know he really loves me. I agree with discussing things, but I think the overanalyzing is detrimental to our relationship. �Agreeing to disagree� doesn�t seem to be an option. We need to discuss the thing until we can both be on the same page. The trouble is, we seldom end up on the same page, we just end up hurt, exhausted, feeling absolutely sick, and suffering love bank withdrawals.

Is there anyone out there who has overcome this problem? Thank you for any tips on dealing with this.

Most of us who have recovered marriages have overcome these problems.

What you are describing here is a marriage full of lovebusting. It sounds like you are both familiar with lovebusters but have done little to STOP lovebusting each other.

How much UA time do you get? Dr Harley would recommend NOT having long conversations about your relationship on UA time, are you doing this?

I think you know that you need to STOP having AO's and also DJing. There is no excuse for it. If a conversation gets unpleasant, you are an adult and can walk away from it.

Overanalyzing seems to me to be both of your way of trying to change each others perspective. Would you agree that one or both of you have this intent in mind? If not, what is the purpose of overanalyzing, and can you describe one of these conversations to us?

You should not have to discuss things for hours if you are unenthusiastic about doing so. And I wouldn't be either as it sounds very unpleasant!

You should not have to explain your position, or why something bothers you. You can just say 'it bothers me when' without having to discuss and analyze that feeling.

If you say you feel like you are being lectured, and he disagrees with that, he is being disrespectful. You can feel like you are being lectured, that is your perspective.

It is very disrespectful to interrupt somebody!

He is allowed to feel like his feelings are not being expressed. How can you 'disagree' with his perspective on that?

Him telling you that you are oversensitive is a DJ.

These are just a few of the lovebusters I have picked out of your post. I am guessing over the course of a lengthy overanalyzing conversation, there are many many more. I am guessing that conversation itself is a lovebuster to you at this point.

I really think you need to find the book Lovebusters in storage, or order a new one. Until you can get these things under control it will be difficult for you to enjoy your new retirement together.

I think the most effective change you could make would be to negotiate in writing. Do not have face-to-face discussions, because these turn out the way you describe.

On the MB programme with accountability, where a couple is assigned a coach, the coach and Dr Harley often order a couple to use written negotiations only, and they often tell the couple to copy in Dr Harley or the coach to all these written communications. This method allows the coach to identify where the conversation begins to degenerate, and to work with the couple to stop this from happening.

You can try email communication by yourselves, but even better would be for you to sign up for the online course, with a coach. You will get weekly, expert guidance with this problem, which I think has become unmanageable for you.

This is very encouraging to hear!
I think we did years ago, and have been trying again recently. We absolutely need to do better. For my AO problem, we have done better. He used to follow me if I tried to walk away and take a break, which escalated to me leaving the house, he has stopped doing that.
I would say we spend about 50 - 60 hours together broken down into; about 30 hours a week doing outside work (usually working together), 14 hours a week in the evenings watching movies, and maybe 10 hours a week enjoying meals together. We do not usually do many things just for fun, though often our 'work' is fun (gardening/building things, etc.) Sometimes one of us will initiate a hike, which is about the only thing we do together that is purely fun. And we don't do that enough.

I wasn't always able to walk away, but now I can. You're right - now that I can walk away, I need to do it sooner.
The conversation/miscommunication/problem is usually that one of us claims to have communicated something and the other claims it was never said, or it was stated as a 'maybe' or 'thinking out loud', not an actual discussion and enthusiastic agreement. The discussion afterward is usually a dissection of I said this, you heard that, you said this, I heard that, sort of thing. Or it can be a discussion about how I am oversensitive and I shouldn't feel the way I feel.
Thank you for this. I forget that the POJA also applies to this.
I think my husband would disagree on this point. Often if something bugs me, and it's just something minor that I can get over in a moment, I don't say anything, but he notices a fleeting look on my face, and that becomes the topic of discussion until he can get to the bottom of it. He is fearful that by not addressing something right way, it will become a larger problem later. We've had the most horrible fights simply because I had a look on my face! Again, a matter of I had a feeling that he thinks I shouldn't have had because I'm oversensitive. I'm not speaking of deliberate, exaggerated expressions here either, just stuff like a fleeting look of disappointment. Momentary expressions.
I agree. He will say 'I an NOT lecturing you!' and gets very upset, so I don't say that anymore. I expressed it in the past and he knows how I feel. No need to say it again.
I agree. When things are more calm, the listener will raise a hand when they would like to interject on the point being made, so the one speaking will know not to move on to another aspect without a pause for other to speak. Also in more calm times I might write a one word note to myself, while he's talking - so I don't forget a thought, and can bring it up when he's finished. At my worst, I can interrupt as well, and I need to stop doing it if I expect the same from him.
I don't disagree with his feeling, or his expressing it. I want to know how he feels. I disagree with him blaming me. In more constructive conversations he has pointed out a specific phrase or mannerism that is a trigger for him feeling a certain way, and if I can get that kind of input, than I can avoid doing or saying that thing.
I agree. He doesn't see it that way.
I will work to find that particular box of books.

Thank you!

Writing is a good idea. The course is probably also a good idea. I will try to bring it up when he calms down.

He is of the opinion that the sole problem is my anger. I agree it is a big problem. I disagree that it's the only problem. However, the only problems I can work on alone are my own problems. And there's plenty of work there to focus on.

Re-reading this one was good. I DO want him to express himself. I don't want him to feel that he can't express himself. But you're right that I can't disagree with his perspective on this. He feels that way, and it's sad. So the question for me is, what am I doing that causes him to feel he can't express himself?

I don't know how he would answer this, but he has made the overriding point that his biggest problem with me is my AO. So that is the thing I will work on first. Maybe if he can feel safe from the AO, he will feel more confident to express how he feels. I'm sorry if this seems simple of me not to see this. Thank you for your thoughts to help me see this.

Fretless, the program involves making a radical change in your habits. I can tell the basic issue, besides not giving up lovebusters, is that you and your husband never learned the POJA. You both come into a negotiation with preformed ideas instead of using it as a brainstorming session to find a THIRD alternative that suits you both. You will always have issues unless you learn how to negotiate.

Most of us on this thread have solved this problem but we did it by going through the MB program. If do it yourself has not worked, I would strongly urge you to look into that. My H and I went through the MB 10 years ago and we have become masters at negotiating conflicts because the longer you do it, the easier it comes. We do it very easily now.

This should stop completely. It is a very negative, unnecessary conversation. If he does this, I would suggest leaving the room.

I think my husband would disagree on this point. Often if something bugs me, and it's just something minor that I can get over in a moment, I don't say anything, but he notices a fleeting look on my face, and that becomes the topic of discussion until he can get to the bottom of it. He is fearful that by not addressing something right way, it will become a larger problem later. We've had the most horrible fights simply because I had a look on my face! Again, a matter of I had a feeling that he thinks I shouldn't have had because I'm oversensitive. I'm not speaking of deliberate, exaggerated expressions here either, just stuff like a fleeting look of disappointment. Momentary expressions.[/quote]

This should stop too. You don't have to explain the WHY's of why you don't want to do something. As you can see, this is nothing more than a completely unnecessary lovebuster that avails nothing.


But has he stopped lecturing you? And when he does lecture will he stop if asked?


This all sounds so grueling and unpleasant!! Have you checked out the Friends and Enemies of Conversation? here


I agree. He doesn't see it that way.[/quote]

Will he stop it? It is very disrespectful.

FYI, Dr Harley rewrote the book Lovebusters a couple of years ago so I would start there. There are also exercises in the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love you can use. Starting on lovebusters is the place to start, but one of the most glaring issues is your inability to negotiate. I hope you take a look at the MB program because it will get you where you need to be much faster. My H and I wasted 7 good years on do-it-yourself and the Harleys fixed it inside of a year.

fretless, would he sign up and come here and start his own thread? It would be interesting to hear his perspective of the biggest problems. Here is a good questionnaire for you both to fill out that might you assess the issue http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/MaritalProblemAnalysis.pdf

We've actually had some success with this. And yes, often it begins with each of us having our own ideas, presenting them, discussing the merits of various plans, and usually ending up with something enitrely different than either of us initially thought, but something much better than either of our initial ideas. We've both remarked on this, and we know that when we're in this mode, we're incredible! But you're right - we don't use the POJA for everything. We've done it with physical things, financial things and big projects, but not with our day to day living. Very good point.

Grueling and unpleasant, yes.

Will he stop lecturing me if I ask? No, he just gets defensive and tells me he's not lecturing me. And technically, he isn't lecturing. He's carefully explaining how he sees something, and asking don't I agree with this point or that point. I say 'lecture' because it's less of a dialog, and more of a monologue on his part, sprinkled with comments or protests from me. He tends to be long winded and circuitous, with plenty asides, and frankly, sometimes by the time he gets to the actual end of a question, I can no longer put together what the actual question is in order to answer it honestly. I will often paraphrase back the essence of the question I think he's trying to ask before I give an answer. And if I've gotten the idea wrong, he starts all over again, mostly saying the same things, just as incomprehensible to me, but now he's more tense and frustrated which just amps up everything.

Now, to his credit, sometimes he will say that he gets understanding from this sort of thing. Sometimes there's an 'aha' moment on his part, that he just understood something about my viewpoint that he didn't see before.

The part about me not having to explain or defend how I feel wouldn't fly with him. He usually just tells me that I'm oversensitive, and tries to explain how I shouldn't feel the way I feel. And he offers as example that everyone else he knows doesn't feel that way, to which I usually reply 'everyone else isn't your wife and doesn't live with you 24/7 either, so it's not a valid comparison'.

The article you linked is excellent. I see both of us in those examples.

I do have the HN,HN & LB books in storage. I will make it a priority to find them and get them in the house.

I don't know if he would or not. I know he must have read some of the site in the last 6 months because he has used phrases with me like 'that agreement doesn't sound very enthusiastic'. For all I know, he may read here every day. He knows I do, because I listen to the radio show just about every day.

I can say, for me, all the replies have been very empowering for me. I am responsible for my AO, which I'm not proud of. In those moments I've become a person I do not like and I'm ashamed of myself. I love my husband very much, and he's a good man. I don't like how I've treated him when I get like that.

The idea that I do not have explain or justify how I feel is like a Godsend. I now have an emergency valve letting off my pressure, and I don't just have to sit there listening and answering yes or no questions until I'm ready to explode. I will try standing up for myself next time and telling him: I feel how I feel, it doesn't mean I don't love him, but I don't have to justify it, explain it, or compile lists of other people who feel the same way to convince him that it's 'normal', and that it's ok if he doesn't feel the same way or agree with me.

Thank you!

The goal here for him to learn to communicate with you in a way that is pleasant and enjoyable. The program can help him with that. What he should not do is continue in ways that lovebusts you, whether it is technically lecturing or not.


So that is another example of a lovebuster he would need to stop. A basic principle of MB is that a spouse never has to explain or defend themselves. Whether he agrees or not, you should not do it because it is not good for your marriage.


Great! Another great resource is the daily MB radio show. You can download the app and listen to it anytime. [it is free]

You've got it! When my H or I don't like something that has been suggested, we move onto other options immediately in order to avoid any unpleasantness in the discussion.

I listen to the radio show every day. Even if I think the topic at hand doesn't apply to me, because there's always good info there regardless. And sometimes I find it DOES apply to me.

'Moving onto other options immediately'. Hhmmmm. I can see where that will take some practice.

F - this stood right out for me.

Did you know there is an actual mental health diagnosis in Japan called "Retired Husband Syndrome?"

This sounds a lot like that.


However, as you absorb the Marriage Builders materials, what you will find is what you have going on - and what "Retired Husband Syndrome" is - is that you and your husband likely lead parallel lives, rather than an interdependent and integrated life.


People in happy, fulfilling marriages don't often complain of "needing more alone time." For a lot of folks who have grown into a romantic and interdependent marriage, friends and family become a distraction rather than an escape from their spouse.


So, previous posters have given you some key points to work on for improving this situation - most notably the POJA.

Along with the POJA, and eliminating Love Busters, you two are going to have to develop a plan to maximize mutually enjoyable time to provide each other with Undivided Attention (per the Policy of Undivided Attention) - and during this time, you will meet the 4 intimate emotional needs; Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment.


You are in an enviable position to do this - if your husband will take the lead.

Keep listening and reading, eliminate the Love Busters that you can, and see if you can invite your husband to join you in a Romantic and fulfilling life of retirement in your love-nest.


When you start having success developing mutually enjoyable activities, and integrating your lives, it will make the difference for you both!

This Retired Husband Syndrome is definitely at play here.

When I left my job, I read a book called 'the Joy of Not Working'. I had so looked forward to ending the 9-5 office life, so when I saw it on the library shelf I borrowed it mostly for fun. Once I started reading, I was astonished to discover how indoctrinated I had become from my years of working. I ended up reading it twice.

I tend to be a powerhouse doer. After leaving work, I set to finding the place we always dreamed about and making it a reality. In some ways, I play the male role in this syndrome.

My husband, in contrast, is quite relaxed and laid back. His work was driving, connected with the building & maintenance trades. Toward the end of our working years, he was the person at home, playing the supporting role for me and my job. And after I left work, he held down the home fort while I hit the road, exploring the places we had researched from afar, looking for our new home.

He definitely suffers depression, and readily admits that. He also has some physical issues, which we hope are minor and resolvable. It upsets me that he will often blame these things on me. He is depressed because of me. He is sick because of me.

He may very well have his own thread here already, because he has already taken a lead in expressing himself and in reining in some of his annoying habits.

MelodyLane's post about the POJA and 'immediately moving on to other options' has been on my mind since I read it. Stepping back and watching myself and my own thought process, I can see that I don't do this. I do it when big negotiations are on the table, but I don't do it as a matter of habit, throughout the day, in all ways.

My husband describes 'feeling pressured' by me. I didn't understand this, because I generally let him do what he wants, and vice versa. (another sign of parallel lives?) What Melody said may have broken the code for me here. Without even realizing it, I'm pressuring him in tiny ways, all day long!

So I have work to do. The good part is I generally succeed at anything I apply myself to, if I can get my head around it.

Thank you EVERYONE for helping me understand my part in this. I will update as I move forward.

Dr Harley recommends spending 15 hours UA time at a minimum to maintain a romantic marriage. It is great to see that you spend a lot of time together, however, not all of it can be used as UA time.

Working together cannot necessarily be considered UA time. If you are 'working' at a hobby that is very enjoyable to both of you while also interacting, such as gardening, it can be considered recreational companionship and would count toward UA time. However, watching a movie would not count because you cannot interact in any way. As HHH stated, the UA time should be filling the 4 intimate EN's in some way. I think if you break down the time you spend together, you will probably have to filter much of it out, and find better ways to spend time that fills the 4 intimate EN's.

However, I can speak from experience here to say that as long as your UA time is filled with lovebusting, you might as well not spend it at all. I know when my H and I first started doing UA, his constant lovebusting made me very UNenthusiastic about going on a date and halfway through the date I was just iritated and wanted to go home. I would feel less in love after a date then before, which is not the point!

Consider your lovebank to be a bucket. Every time you fill EN's, specifically the intimate EN's, you place a token in your bucket. However, lovebusters create a hole in the bottom of the bucket. You can put as many tokens in as you want, but as long as you maintain that hole in the bottom they aren't going to do much good! Which is why you really need to get a handle on the lovebusting so spending UA time together can be beneficial.