Have you listened to the radio clips in here? Beware of Bad Counselors

No, I haven't. I listen to it now. Thank you!

One thing that stands out to me in the list you gave of things you are doing, is that it seems like you are very angry (understandable) and you do not plan to stop reminding him of this anytime soon.

A key element to recovering from an affair is to *never talk about it again.* It is a very hard thing to do. As the BS you want to keep hammering them with it, making them re explain it, trying desperately to find a way to make them understand just exactly what they did to you. But you can't do that. You can do it if you want to stay in a miserable marriage forever, but not if you want a recovered marriage.

Get all the information you need. Follow through with the poly. Follow through with the EP's. But once you have all the information you need, and are comfortable that the affair is no longer happening, you need to stop talking about it and focus on creating a great marriage that was better than before. Do you think you can do this?

What are you trying to accomplish with the therapy?

Often people go to therapy to find out why the affair occurred. I can tell you why and it won't cost you a dime. Your H had an affair because he has poor boundaries around women. If he did not have poor boundaries (and did not travel for work) it would not have happened. That is what EP's are for, to create boundaries around your marriage that make an affair next to impossible to have.

These things seem very demoralizing to me.

Also, telling him to go to therapy for his selfishness and lack of empathy is hugely disrespectful. This will not help you create a better marriage.

On top of that, if you spend time looking for "deeper" reasons beyond that why an affair occurred, Dr. Harley says that you are very likely to come up with reasons that are incorrect.

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=06849/play_segment.cfm?sid=06849

Eventually, yes. The fallout is still very fresh. The cruelty surrounding some of what he did has deeply affected me.

We do have some good moments. I don't hammer him constantly. Sometimes he will initiate talking about it - how he feels, wanting to read, ways he can assure me, etc. Other times, I have questions that pop up. Anxiety attacks.

Then, there are times when he just wants to know if I am truly in love with him or if I'll stay or why he could do this or there's a trigger and while we never fight, we talk and that doesn't come without pain. Sometimes, the pain is good. We understand each other a little more. Other times, it's just a build up.

Will there come a time when this subject is taboo? No. Will there be a time when it's a bad/sad time remembered and there will be triggers and he'll hopefully do something to make me laugh or smile or show some other 'I know, it hurts, I'm here and I'm still sorry' action? I hope so. I hope that there will be a time when we don't think about it the way we both do now.

I certainly count on a time when I don't have to watch him like a hawk. I hate it. It's not me. It's not the way I should have to be. But short term? It's what I must do.

Long term? We will both always have open access to everything. No secrets. Go through my purse, or I'll go through his wallet to find money, a CC, a forgotten lotto ticket, sunglasses, whatever. No email account is private. No device. GPS always enabled on both our phones. Total transparency.

He is perfectly fine with never having female friends. We can have friends that are couples, but for either of us to go out alone with someone of the opposite sex or spend time in their company alone (don't go inside heir house without one of us or the other spouse present, etc)? It's something to be avoided like the plague.

Actions that the other find too flirtatious or crossing the line? No problem. Agreed upon definitions? If it's that important to one spouse, it's important to both. Going forward, it's HusbandCam or WifeCam. What would the other think or feel if they saw or heard what was going on? We both agree on them and are reasonable. Certain words from others who might signal poaching? Firmly put the poacher in their place. Extract from the situation. Tell the other. Go through our credit reports together every year? Those are lifelong.

The postnup? It's totally useless if you don't need it. It's just a way for the WS to show their sincerity that nothing like this will happen again. That was his two cents, btw. The poly? Due to inconsistencies, the longevity, and the situation, unfortunately necessary, I think. It'll hopefully put some of my fears to rest.

The exercise and hobbies and communication building are going to all be good things overall.

He had poor boundaries, true. But when I told him he had crossed proper boundaries during the affair he refused to believe it. So yes, there is a checklist we both have agreed on that are our new boundaries (and yes, they are above Dr. Haley's in some ways. It's what we both felt best.) We both agree they are totally fair.

But it is impossible to ever say there will never ever be a night apart. Besides, things can happen in the daytime, too. How many affairs happen and are ongoing where the spouse isn't traveling? A lot, I bet. Remove what we can. Have other methods in place for the once MAYBE twice a year he has to be gone otherwise. ALWAYS go to Colorado with him.

Talk to his family? It's accountability since they already know the bare basics and now want to know what happened. They don't need all the details, but a face-to-face explanation that comes from him instead of me contacting them and saying, "Help! This is what's going on!" is fair. It's his side of the story the way he tells it. He hates having disappointed them and making it real will help him not do it again. It gets the 800 pound elephant out of the room.

Deeper meaning: aside from the boundaries, it was the WAY he treated me. I do think that's important. Besides, if it stems from selfishness - his reason for what he did - and he doesn't want to be that person, he needs help doing so. He's said he looks back on a lot of things in his life and sees how selfish and immature he's been. It's not a switch he can suddenly flip. If it's nothing more than someone to guide him or talk to that isn't me, I think that's a good thing. I don't have the best perspective for him on this at the moment and could do more harm than good. His actions damaged our relationship. No sticking our heads in the sand and refusing to talk about it or find ways to help him be less selfish and more empathetic.

If he can't sleep or I can't sleep, and the other asks how the other slept, we're honest. Then the other asks what happened - what can they do. Meetings on our needs and what's going on? Totally fair. I tend to save questions and stuff for them. Him, too. Weekly for now because we have a lot to work through. Eventually, our plans are monthly. We are working on what our core values are and how best to protect those - some are beyond this affair thing, such as finances, retirement, family, etc.

Signing a couple pieces of paper on agreement isn't the end all. A start, but only that. He signed a marriage certificate and took vows after all.

ETA: I also think this is beyond boundaries. It's a matter of respect for your spouse. It's a matter of care and empathy. Don't have it? Find out why. Fix it if possible.

The only way that will happen is to leave the affair in the past. Once you have the information you need for extraordinary precautions to be taken, and extraordinary precautions are in place so that it will never happen again, you have to stop talking about it. You don't bring it up, and neither does he.

Remove triggers from your life so that you are not reminded.

If you do bring the affair up, it will be like ripping a scab off a wound. And it will trigger and keep all the feelings of betrayal fresh. Neither one of you will be able to heal, much less your marriage.

No, it's not. Couples follow this extraordinary precaution all the time. And if you don't, your marriage will be at risk.

All marriages are at risk regardless what you follow. All marriages. He could have a tryst locally just as easily. He could have an on-line affair and never travel. He could have to go to see his family for something. Essentially, something could happen there since we're not together.

Triggers. There will always be triggers. You may not need to talk about them every time, but there will always be the affair in the back of the couple's head like a stain. A waitress with the same name. A song. The name of a town. A scene on TV. Couples can get past them, but the trigger will always be there for both parties. It's how you handle it down the road. A gentle touch, a joke, a hug, a loving glance. Something that says, "Ouch" and the other says, "I know. I'm here" and the other says "thank you."

How many couples have you worked with who have recovered from an affair?

You realize you are talking to a board of folks who have been through affairs, right? And we followed a very specific program of recovery, and are beyond happily recovered.

So we kind of know what we are talking about. I would suggest, since you are suffering from fresh wounds, that you slow down and listen to those who have been there and know how to heal. You can't be the doctor in this situation -- you are the injured one.

Dr. Harley's program of recovery works, if followed. But it must be followed closely. Any cherry-picking or deviation from the plan will end in disaster. We have seen it happen over, and over, and over again.

This is not true. Marriages that do not follow extraordinary precautions are always at risk. Marriages that fall victim to a serial cheater (meaning someone that goes looking for an affair) are always at risk -- and those are rare.

But your average marriage, if following extraordinary precautions, is not at risk.

Not if he's following extraordinary precautions.

Been there. Done that. There's extraordinary precautions for that, too. It doesn't negate the necessity of the other extraordinary precautions, such as never spending the night apart.

Not if he's following extraordinary precautions. This is a lifestyle change, you see.

Not if you remove them.

We are at 7 years out from my affair, and our marriage is "stain free." No, the affair does not have to always be in the back of the couple's head. It can, and will, fade into the past as a distant memory that you rarely, IF EVER, think about. IF you follow extraordinary precautions and a program to restore the love in your marriage.

Avoid that waitress.

Avoid that song.

Move.

Do not watch that show. Or that type of show. Or TV at all.

If the trigger remains, then the couple does not move past the affair.

Yes, I agree it's how you handle it. If you handle it by removing the trigger from your life and not discussing the trigger or the affair, then you will move on and can build a wonderful and romantic marriage. You will recover.

You are romanticizing triggers. And I am telling you that there is something even greater out there. What you have written sounds sweet, and soothing, and romantic. But, your husband saying "I know, I am here," will not be enough. A touch, a joke (really??), a hug will not be enough. It will not fill the gaping hole in your heart or your marriage. You will crave more. And more. And he will not be able to do anything to soothe the ache. The solution is to remove that which is causing the painful reminder.

You seem to be spending a lot of time and energy educating us on how to recover from an affair. Realize that not only have many of us been there, but we are regular posters who have been posting here for years and have read thousands of stories just like yours. We have seen couples who embraced Dr Harley's strategies for recovery, and how they have flourished. And we have seen the opposite.

In other words, you are not the expert here. Honestly, neither are we. Dr Harley is the expert, he has been helping couples recover from infidelity for over 40 years. We have just witnessed how deviating from his plan is devastating to couples, and do not want to see that happen to you.

Once you have all of the information about the affair, you BOTH should also stop talking about it. This is a very important piece to recovery. Many of us have seen couples who do every other part of recovery but this one, and years later are still unhappy. Why? Because they are still talking about the affair! For the BS it continues to keep the pain front of mind, and for the WS it makes them feel like they can never put this mistake in the past and that their BS will never let them forget about it.

Bringing up painful experiences from the past over and over again does not heal you, it simply continues to bring the unpleasant past into the present. It is counter productive to recovery.

If you are referring to things that continue to bring the affair into the present, this should not be on the list. Even if your WS agrees, that doesn't mean it is good for your marriage. He could agree to robbing a bank together for recreational companionship, but that would not make it good for your marriage.

It will keep you constantly triggered, and make him feel beat down and hopeless. I am guessing that is not your goal.

Have you listened to these radio clips?

You can't always avoid. We don't live in the same town. Doesn't mean it'll never come up in someone else's conversation or on TV, etc. Waitress name & not going back, sure but that's too late for that trigger, isn't it?

Boundaries are things we do to protect ourselves. But they're not behavior modifications. Other things are in place because although ultimately, people are free to do as they will, there are consequences.

Cause and effect, AKA we are free to act, but not free of the consequences

In dog training, if a dog continues to bark at men in hats, you can A) let them bark at men in hats, B) scold them C) don't walk them ever, because there might be men in hats. Or D) Work on why they might find men in hats threatening and make it not so. Some form of consequence and reward action has to happen. We aren't talking inhumane, but the consequence is unpleasant and the reward is high. Soon, the dog chooses to put the reward with not barking at men in hats.
In other words, you change the behavior instead of trying desperately not to walk the dog near men in hats.

Underlying problems...

Alcoholics have to learn their triggers before they can successfully pass a bar. Giving them 'boundaries' alone doesn't cut it. Neither does telling them they can't drive anywhere because they may pass a liquor store or bar. They may have underlying issues they must deal with - self esteem, etc.

Should WS try to prevent being away? ABSOLUTELY! But not every affair means people can never travel, must move, avoid watching TV ever again, etc. People cannot forget traumatic events. We cannot run from them or every trigger. I will always feel sad when I hear someone's name who is the same as my father's. I don't avoid them. I'm sad, but I don't break down. It just tugs at my heart. I instantly miss him. Same for some things that meant a lot to my father. They're triggers. I just acknowledge and take a moment and move on. An affair will always be the same. Always. I refuse to never mention my father again, or his death. It happened. I can't avoid people who have cancer. I will talk to them about their illness if they wish and it makes them feel better, even if it's the cancer that killed my father.

I don't run.

Romanticizing? I do see a time when he handles affair triggers like he handles the pain he sees when I miss my dad - a hug, a joke (yes, an appropriate joke), a hug. And they do help. Bottling it up? Nope. I do the same when he misses his mom after all these years or there's a trigger. A hug, a touch, an "I know" without him telling me? He says it goes a long way and that's what he loves about me.

Yes, there has been a time or two where a well-placed joke has made us less tense about the affair. We even laughed a little once. We were watching the news and someone in a church went to jail for stealing donations. He said, "At least she was Christian." Probably off-putting to some, but it made me laugh on a day when he could tell I was tense and upset. Whatever works.

Spyware won't prevent her from traveling anywhere. Any spyware that your WS knows about can be worked around. You are underestimating a wayward if you think differently.

They could have adjoining rooms and she could step in to the next room. If you have spyware on your phone all he has to do is turn on some music or the tv and go into the next room.

Here is just one example of how a wayward could work around this. He doesn't answer the phone and you turn the audio on. He says that he was sleeping. Really he has left the room.

I think the spyware audio is a great tool but it will not make up for the risks you are taking with overnight travel.

Not to mention it is hard to have a very integrated, intimate marriage when you spend nights apart. Dr Harley has been doing this for many years and he talks about this topic often.