I do appreciate everyone's responses. I want/need to vent a bit. I understand that most folks who discover this website do so because their marriage is in tatters. Mine is as well.

However, I would like to state for the record that I have 98-100% surety that my husband is not currently physically cheating on me. I am 100%certain that I am not cheating emotionally, physically or with my time. In fact, if my husband 'cheats' on me, it's with and for his hobby.

When I brought up my concerns about his hobby, I was rebuffed. Every effort to reign in the hobby to reasonable levels starts as a discussion and usually ends up with me feeling bullied until I gave in. Sometimes there have been angry outbursts on both sides. This happened often enough, I started thinking, 'This is not the hill I want to die on.' Still, my blood is all over that battlefield.

But a hobby is not a OW. How do I fight a hobby? This isn't the first hobby he's had that got out of control. He would not listen to me until some third person saw how he was about the hobby and wondered to hubby HOW I put up with that? Then, he'll see how out of control he's been, apologize, cut back on that hobby (or end it all together). But, within months, he's begun a new hobby. This hobby, he laughs an 'aw, shucks' laugh like he's getting away with something. He's not giving this hobby up.

When I'm discussing this with him, do I have to just let the history, including the pattern, go? Do I stick with just the hobby I'm tired of competing with? Is it possible that he is having an 'emotional affair' with his hobby?

It will help to know what they were/are, these hobbies.

First was motorcycles. After his third wreck, while I was pregnant, he sold the motorcycles.

Next was amateur radio. We both got involved, thinking it would be fun. Well, it took over, replacing me and our newborn son as the focus of most of his time. Our son was almost 4 when that hobby was reduced to reasonable levels. He still has that hobby, I gave it up.

This hobby hurt badly. He'd be in the room, with his back turned to us, headphones on. If we even made noise, he'd fuss at us. But, he wanted the radio in the living room because.... he didn't want to be isolated and apart from his family. UGH!

Next was trains. I figured a 4-year-old would enjoy wooden track trains. Our son did. Hubby decided to go outside logic and build an electric train set, complete with mountains, etc. This hobby completely alienated his son, who was considered too young to touch ANYTHING hubby was working on. Only when hubby realized he spent more time outside in the train room than inside with his family did he sell all of the train stuff. By then, our son was 6 and had got used to the idea that Dad was always too busy for us.

Now, the hobby is guns and reloading. He'd always wanted to get into reloading, but his first wife refused. He bought and sold guns so much he ended up with a retail license back then. I wouldn't allow that, but I allowed the reloading.

That has now taken over our lives. I sincerely believe he can't go one week without doing something in that hobby. He's spent a fortune, and I mean a fortune, on parts, supplies, tools, guns, equipment. If he doesn't get to go to the gun range at least twice a month, he is ill, hard to get along with. I start getting blamed as I am his transportation.

He's on the internet researching when he's not reloading or test firing or processing shot brass. He gets mad at me if we go to the range and I don't offer to, or want to, get on hands and knees and look for spent brass left by other shooters. I've been fussed at for picking up certain calibers (I don't care to learn, still I do now know) or for NOT picking up certain calibers. I am not enthusiastic about this endeavor at all.

But, if I waited until I was enthusiastic to carry him to the gun range, wait all day until he calls for his ride home and go get him home, he'd never go. Seriously. It isn't that I am angry about it. It's that he gets his recreation time to dive into his hobby and if I even try to spend an hour diving into my hobby (small expense, mostly internet research - ancestry), then I'm 'stealing' time from the family.

*** OK, guys, I've vented enough. I'm not even sure what my original point was supposed to be. Maybe that, being new to this site, I'm concerned about how quickly folks jump to the conclusion that one or the other spouse is cheating. Also, that many of the tools are for after a cheater gets caught. How am I supposed to implement that with no affair going on? Emotionally cheating with a hobby is not the same thing. It's actually tougher to defend against! HELP! ****

If you went to the doctor with backache, he would start with the most likely explanation which would be right 80% of the time. Once he had explored that and found it was wrong, he would move to the next possiblity.



No you are wrong and what you state is enormously hurtful to those of us who have experienced the pain of adultery. He is not 'emotionally cheating with a hobby'. What you describe is Independent Behaviour (IB). It is clear that your husband gets deeply passionate about his hobbies and that you have become resentful which is quite understandable. But the solution is for BOTH of you to give up your independent hobbies; he the guns and you the ancestry search. Then find something that you both love. Start brain storming today. Nothing more exciting than looking for something brand new to learn/play/do. Do not try to make this into family time, you already know that does not work for him.

Keep this hobby for the 20-25 hours a week of Undivided Attention (UA) time. You can have intimate conversations while you climb/build/sew. This will allow you to fall in love without the threat of a sexual demand, so easier for you too.

I just reread your thread and didn't see one response to you that talked about an affair. Who said this to you?

They talked about UA and Sex aversion and when to call it quits. But where did anyone jump to the conclusion that there was an affair?

Have you read this and listen to the radio clips? The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Have you read this? How to Overcome Independent Behavior

This really is unfair of me and I must own that I was out of line. At no time has any response to me mentioned any suspicion of an affair. Please accept my sincere apology.

I am frustrated that I read the material and others' posts and so very much is focused on affairs. I understand that not getting these issues into the light is devastating to a marriage and often does lead to an affair.

It may just be that I am fortunate to be seeking answers before an affair happened.

Perhaps it is that I am ignorant regarding relationships. I am reading, learning and still have not taken in the most important part of this website that likely seems so obvious to all of you who know the material and have made it work in your own lives. I have not yet got it into my mind how close I may be to the line. Just because I am frustrated and unsure how to make this work in my situation does not give me any right to post as I did.

Making my vent post was a mistake. It was unkind and unfair. I may be able to edit or remove the post, but I can't change how it made those who did read it feel. For that pain, I am sorry.

I'm going to step away from posting, while I re-read all the material available and try to make sense of it. Hopefully, when I return, it will be with a better appreciation of you fine folks reading what I type. At least this way I can't hurt anyone else with my words.

I totally understand and trust me when I say, many of us wish we would have found MB before experiencing an affair.

I don't think you necessarily need to stop posting (unless you need to absorb it all in) but definitely come back and ask your questions.

We do understand how distressing and frustrating this must be for you. Regard this post as a book mark of your state of mind at the start of your journey. Just thinking about problems can make them temporarily feel worse before you start to tackle them.

A romantic relationship can be created out of what you now have if you are both willing. Your husband will be nervous about the changes, be gentle and encouraging.

Have you had a chance to read this and listen to the radio clips?

That is how we all were when we came here!

While you are checking out all the resources available, be sure to get the app and start listening to the free Marriage Builders Radio show. That is the key that put it all together for most of us.

As an update:

I've begun discussing some of the things I've learned here. I haven't shared this website yet, but I think that's coming soon.

Thank you to this website and to all the posters on this forum.

What I've learned here I have applied, in part. I'm not that good, to just change everything on a dime. Still, I've had better words to describe what I need from him and why what he's been doing hasn't been working (doing as he'd like me to do for him, expecting that to do the same for me).

It's making a difference. He appears to be getting it and he has definitely been trying. I want to trust this change and trust him to keep it up, but it's hard.

But doubt hasn't left completely. He's done this before - finally shown me some affection for a while. If he doesn't get all his needs met 100% of the time, then he stops even trying to fill my needs.

It's as if he keeps a tally in his head. If he does one thing in my 'love language' he expects one (sometimes more) thing done for him in his 'love language'.

I have been using a well analogy with him, instead of the love bank. Still, I tried to explain that the years of neglect have left my well empty and that he can't just splash a bucket in there and expect to draw water right back out. During our conversation, I thought he understood what I meant.

Still, he's showing me that he's not afraid to step up his requests for his needs just because he's met a few of mine (refusing to accept that groping negates the hugs or to understand that yelling at our son is a love-buster for me).

I'm so new to all of this and I want to keep moving forward.

Is it unusual to still feel the resentment and dread from the time that my needs weren't being met at all? Just because he asked for one of his needs to be met?

Last night, he asked me to rub his back. It helps meet his needs to be tended to. I have a right to refuse, but still feel an obligation to comply just because he cooked dinner that night and didn't yell at our son when normally he would have. Because of that sense of obligation (he met my needs, or at least didn't love-bust), I resented doing for him and dreaded bedtime because I knew it was going to be all about him once again.

I tried to release and let go of the obligation feelings and the dread and just enjoy doing something for someone I love. I mostly succeeded, but just before going to sleep, I did fall back into resentment that bedtime always seems to be about him and his needs.

Is it normal to take a while to let go of those negative feelings?

How many hours of UA time are you getting each week?

Undivided is none. Focused is the best we can do right now, with me working full time, him being daycare for our DS9, and us having four dogs who listen only to my husband.

Focused, where we concentrate on each other and communicate is only about 4-7 hours, and that is an improvement lately.

It's not set-aside time, except when we're already in bed. It's 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there, maybe an hour at bedtime.

We both are still learning how to listen to each other and really hear what the other is saying. To have been married so long it is sad that we both have been so unaware of the others' feelings.

I've been reading other threads and now feel that I must get my own AO under control as a priority. I've been getting better, but have realized how both of us give ourselves permission to go too far. I can't control my husband, but I certainly can control myself!

That seems like the most logical place to start. Get myself under control, listen to the radio clips and learn how to do that most effectively. Implement what I learn. THEN, focus on the next biggest issue in the marriage.

This plan will not work unless you are getting 15 hours of UA a week, alone and outside of the house. 15 minutes here and 30 minutes there will not cause you to fall in love. Your needs will continue to go unmet.

You cannot leave this step out.

Is your husband willing to work with you to find the 15 hours?

No, I have not asked for 15 hours UA yet. I have little faith that asking would result in the time, based on our history.

He does not believe that couples with children should 'be so selfish' as to 'fail their responsibilities' as parents and 'dump their kids on babysitters'.

I know this is something he still believes because I have asked for a return to once a week, or every other week, date night. The reasons sited above were given for his 'no' response. Every effort I've made over the past two years to have some time to ourselves, outside of the bedroom, has failed.

Have you read this? The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I had, but, like so many I guess, I said inside my own head - 'That will never work for my husband and me. No way he gives up his TV time or hobby time enough to give me 15 hours.'

Then, I had to get real and own my own hesitation. 'No way I want to be apart from my son for an additional 15 hours! I'm already away 50 hours a week for work!'

So, to my mind, it's time to tell my husband about this website. To print out and bring home several of the worksheets and printed articles.

It's time for me to put it to my husband that I think this may be the last best hope of saving our marriage. That I'm willing to try the lessons, books, radio articles, whatever I have to if it means saving our marriage. Not just saving it, but moving it from surviving to thriving.

I don't think either of us has considered what it would feel like to feel genuinely in love, genuinely devoted to each other. I know that at various times in our marriage, we each were very devoted to the other. It just seems that we were shouting our own love language and not even trying to speak that of the other. When that didn't give us the responses we wanted, we gave up.

What's that definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, then, time for something different.

Time to end the excuses (my own), share this website, use the tools and commit to 15-30 hours. Explain to our son that this is vital to making the marriage healthy between me and his Dad. He's old enough to get that. Explain to our daughter (unless we hire a non-relative babysitter) that we are working on our marriage and we need this much time.

Who knows, maybe I will finally end my TV addiction and hubby will realize he'd rather be with his family than his hobby buddies.

Thank you for the link and for keeping at me until I heard you.

Wow, the walls I have up didn't look this tall when I was building them. They've served what I thought I wanted well, but it's time they come down. Just the thought of tearing them down is scary. Too bad, onthefence608. Too bad. Down, they must come.

UPDATE: I wrote Dr. Harley on Friday. He's already answered and I'm trying to wrap my head around his suggestion.

He recommended his book 'Love Busters' and to separate. Not as a Plan A or Plan B separation, just separate, with daily contact.

I've been dwelling on this all night. Only now, as I type this do I think I understand why it has to be separation. Until I can stop 'martyring' myself and ask clearly for what I need, and he can demonstrate a lasting willingness to add love units to my account, we don't need to be under the same roof.

Until BOTH of us can get our AO's eliminated, we don't need to be under the same roof.

My challenge right now is to STOP coming up with excuses why to not separate and to get busy figuring out how to make it work.

Separating and/or divorcing are so much harder than being good to each other. More expensive, too! In time, effort, money, feelings.

I'm headed to the book store, time to not 'prepare to' and time to get busy buying and reading that book.

So are you planning to separate?

Good luck, OTF - Dr. Harley's advice is the best.