This is not a program that you can follow on your own. You have to share it with your husband, and he has to be a willing and active participant.

And he needs to get into Anger management and needs to stop his AOs. Have you read the "what to do with an angry husband thread?"

Yes, I've read that and many other articles, along with listening to the radio broadcasts.

My issue right now is how to separate and how to define what my terms are for us to reunite. Or to go ahead and file for divorce if those terms can't/won't be met.

It's the expense that has me stumbled at the moment. And the lack of available apartments/trailers/etc.

What about asking him to move out?

As he's pointed out to me so often, he has nowhere to go. My hunt was with the idea of either him or me and our son moving out. I know it would help, and surprise and upset, him if I had a place picked out.

He's disabled (nearly blind) and not motivated to do this search himself. Even if I warn him that he has 30 days to go. He will passively-aggressively not look and complain when the 30 days are up that he couldn't find anything.

Having done this search myself, that's actually true in this area. So, It will probably serve me best with follow-through if I already have a place picked out when I tell him we need to separate. If it's safe enough for me and our son, it's safe enough for him as well.

First, you don't need to pick out a place for him or be involved in that decision at all. Part of separating is, well ... separating. It means he will need to make decisions for himself, and you will need to make decisions for yourself.

When I kicked my husband out, he found a place to live. He was motivated by the fact that he didn't want to sleep in his car. Your husband can figure that out.

Second, are you going to tell him about this program?

First, I know I don't *need* to help him if I choose to separate. I know that. Still....

Second - yes.

Still ...??

Yes. He is disabled, nearly fully blind. I do feel like scum of the earth if I just walk away or kick him out.

To put this into perspective of the weak-minded person I can be: I can't kick out his 25 year old son, who has a college degree and a fantastic job. The man is ready to be on his own and needs to be for himself and for us, but I can't bring myself to tell him it's time for him to go.

If I can't kick HIM out, knowing he'd be fine if I did, then I certainly can't stomach kicking out his father, my husband. Because I know my husband would be unable to attend to his own needs (buying groceries, getting to/from a doctor, etc.).

He is completely reliant on me, his adult son or his adult daughter for anything requiring transportation. The adult children have begun saying no to him. That may change if I walk out, at least for his daughter.

Walking away from him, or sending him away, is more guilt than I can stand up against right now.

It's good for me to have to write this stuff out. I am shocked at how enabling I sound. I've been putting up with a lot of junk because I just can't bring myself to even separate - because of what he will face!

I must reach that place where I can say to him, when he cries and tells me he has no place to go, 'You should have thought about that before you took me for granted and continued talking to me like I was a child. You are now free to enjoy all the independent behavior you want! It is no longer my concern if you have no place to go.'

I am obviously not there yet.

Have you contacted Dr. Harley?

Yes. His recommendation was separation with daily contact - dating possibly. No reconciliation until I and our 9-year-old both agree.

It is my enabling and concern for hubby's safety that keep me 'stuck in the middle' and not moving forward.

If you allow yourself to get to that point, your marriage will very likely not be salvageable.

What has your H done to stop his AOs?

He's using self-control. He still gets upset, but he will walk out of the room or he may still burst verbally, but he stops himself before the words are hurtful. This isn't every time, but it is better.

Example: Before - our son accidentally knocks his own hand and shouts in surprise as much as in pain.
H) Really? Why do you have to ruin EVERY dinner. EVERY night it's SOMETHING with you. Can't you let me eat ONE MEAL in peace? ** Will sometimes declare he's lost his appetite and it's our son's fault.

Now - same scenario
H) Son, did that hurt?
S) Yeah, some.
H) I'm sorry it hurt. But, all that noise wasn't really necessary, was it?
S) No
H) Ok, well, let's eat dinner. Please don't shout like that again, ok?

He'll do well like this for a few weeks, then go back to shouting, then I talk with him again about how damaging that is to our son and to me (I have a strong need for family commitment), then he'll do well for a few weeks again.

You are right and my 'quote' was disrespectful.

I don't know how to implement the separation that Dr. Harley suggests is critical.

Legally in this state, I can't force hubby to move out. If I move out, with or without our son, I may forfeit my house (yes, the house is mine - there's a lot of his/hers in our marriage).

I've considered moving out anyway and can't afford the safe places and won't go to the unsafe ones with my son.

I didn't know how to segue from his asking me if I was cheating last night (Yes, asked calmly, was able to tell the truth and say - 'No') into that I do want a separation. I lost the opportunity when it was right there.

And, part of why I chickened out was that I knew it would be difficult to believe my honest 'No' if I then asked for the separation.

Update ~~ Stepson announced last night that he is moving out (at 25, that's a good thing).

I can't help but feel delighted! Because the young man is earning more than me and needs to be independent. Also because his being here was one of my main stumbling blocks regarding a separation as Dr. Harley recommends. It was just too awkward to ask Dad to leave with Stepson still in the home. And, I couldn't ask Stepson to move out any sooner, his Dad promised he'd ALWAYS have a home and that he'd never kick his son out. (For those with teenagers, DON'T MAKE THIS PROMISE!! If you have to promise this, it's likely that you will be tested. Just live it, show it through the way you treat your children that it's ok to YOU if they stick around longer than most).

Today, even though I don't have all my plans hashed out and I may still have to wait until the first of the month (time to make those plans, I suppose), I feel light. I feel energized.

At last, something is moving forward. This stagnation was making me feel that all was futility.

Part of my plan was to ask hubby to move into the room currently being used by stepson. That only works if the room is empty.

***** TMI alert to this question stop reading if you just don't want to know ******

I'm not trying to Plan A. Dr. Harley recommends separation with contact until love busters towards me and our young son can be stopped and the change sustained. So, TMI question - do I fill his need for sex if I'm in serious withdrawal? What about the rest of his needs (doing tasks around the house, honesty, nurturing him - almost like a mother-figure, appreciation)? I've been keeping all of these up regardless of how I feel.

OK, one last foolish question and I'll get busy with my planning.... He's been trying lately, but all of his trying looks like his needs being met instead of mine. I've let him know what my needs are and some basics on how to accomplish them. I'm so deep into withdrawal that I have to force myself to allow him to fill those needs, because he's asking what he can do for me.

Is this normal? Him putting forth effort, but rarely in anything resembling my needs and my wanting him to go away instead of giving him the chance to fill my needs when he DOES try?

This is all so confusing. But, I'm still excited! Because I still believe progress can now be made. One way or another!

You can write Dr Harley, but I went through a separation & might be able to help you.

1st: No such thing as an in house separation. You two have to live apart no if's ands or buts.

(I don't believe having had 2 divorces that any state will take your house in your name away from you if you have to leave - my last ex had to move out and since he owned it before marriage- the house was still awarded to him (and the kids and I had to move out)even though he hadn't lived there so I think you seriously need to speak to a lawyer before you make decisions)

You might need to file for divorce for protection and just not pursue it to make sure your things are secure.

Talk to us- we might be able to help you brainstorm ideas on how to get him to leave and/or how to have you move out.

As for your TMI: stop filling his needs. it will only make a woman go into severe depression and get an aversion.

At this point you are letting him know that you are WILLING to meet his needs if he will meet yours but its ok for that to not happen until say he hasn't had an Angry outburst in 3 months. It is really not going to work letting him fill your needs while your in withdraw and he is still lovebusting you so don't fret over not letting him. He is just filling a bucket full of holes anyhow it will actually be more painful if you let him start only to be lovebusted. So Stop. Be cordial- let him know you will be willing and leave it at that for now.

Dr. Harley wanted me to just talk on email first until he could stop his lovebusters there= moving up to phone calls and text. If he started with lovebusters again... it could go back to just email. You keep a daily worksheets to exchange showing what lovebusters he did and if there were some good conversation.
Now, he said its ok to not be honest while living together as it is not safe to do but while separated- this is the time to be radically honest about things he does that bothers you and what you really want.

If he can show you for a couple months that he can email and talk on the phone without lovebusters, then you go on dates where he gets to practice no lovebusters and if things go bad- you can leave.
(this is one reason why there is no way on earth to do this correctly living in the same house- it will not work, he will not change, you can't only have email access or NO access if he lives with you. Each and every time he get to talk to you or see you is a reward and you want to start making those rewards earned in a sense.)

You really need to immerse yourself in listening to the radio- reading his books etc. You have enabled him for so long that I can tell from reading that you still don't understand how all this works.

So talk to us and let us see if we can help you with ideas on how to make this plan b work.

I've been writing with Dr. Harley and listening to the radio casts. That doesn't mean I get what I'm supposed to be doing, so all help is deeply appreciated!

Thank you, Elaina7, for answering and for the clarity you bring.

You are right to call me on the enabling. I've been doing it so long, I don't even see it myself.

I'm going to re-read Dr. Harley's answers to me for inspiration.

Your advice is also wonderful - you've actually lived this advice through, even if it did have to end in divorce. Just as I suspect mine will also end in divorce.

So what is your plan for the separation?

File for a legal separation, have him served. Ask him to leave. If he refuses, have the Sheriff's deputy remove him from the property - I can legally do that after he is served.

The downside to this approach is two-fold. He has nowhere to go (both adult children are hesitant to allow him to be in their places - adult son just signed a lease in a too-small trailer) and having him removed from the property will likely put him in a headspace of divorce only - no reconciliation.

Further putting a damper on the whole plan is that the Social Security Administration is reviewing his case. If they decide that he is no longer disabled (though he is, and we may have to medically prove that to them), he loses his only source of income. If I also separate from him, he will literally have nothing.

With the pending SSA review, I may be able to talk to him. Get him to understand how important it is to him that our marriage work for both of us. Get him on board with the Marriage Builders concepts and life plans.

We just got that letter last night. I had to read it to him for him to get the importance of this. As usual, he couldn't tolerate my reading to him but for so long.

Now, I really feel like a horrible person if I leave him before this gets resolved. That really would be like kicking him when he's already down.

And, very selfishly, I need for him to have the SSA review go well. He is not capable of earning an income at this stage in his life. If I leave him like this, I pay alimony, get no child support and I don't even know how he'd live.

The sad, funny part about this is that I had planned to go home last night, explain that I am not happy still, what he could do to help with that (stop lovebusters, start filling MY needs instead of just what he feels like doing for me).

After reading the SSA information to him, he was grouchy, unkind, demanding. He apologized, but it kept up after the apology, so... yeah. A total crud-fest last night.