Update again:

I did end up telling hubby about Marriage Builders. He's found and watched nearly all videos on YouTube, and he says they're helping him understand some.

He also says he's trying to give one hour a day while I'm at work to reading articles or listening to the radio show on this site.

He has been trying harder to meet my specific needs for affection and conversation. I have been trying to meet his needs for companionship and appreciation.

He's only been aware of Marriage Builders a few days. He's only been trying to meet my needs in a direct, caring way for a few days. I can't just drop my SA and open up to SF for him. He says I'm being difficult and one-sided if I won't meet his SF needs.

Things bordered on ugly, there was name-calling (comparing me to the Queen of Sheba, sitting on the sofa doing nothing night-after-night, in his opinion). The whole conversation only began in bed after I'd told him how tired I was. And he asked when his SF would be met again. And I told him I couldn't make promises.

Three hours later and nothing resolved, but plenty of hurt feelings to go around, I did finally get to sleep. The only thing I did learn that was useful is that my tone of voice when trying to explain how I feel is a love buster to him. He doesn't even hear the words. Which may be why I haven't been heard in years. UGH.

OnTheFence,
I wonder, have you read this article yet?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html

If this seems to speak to you - and describe how you are feeling, would he be willing to read it?
Good luck.

OTF, I haven't read your entire thread, but it might be helpful for you both to follow the advice in this article. It is best to meet these needs in the context of a romantic date. Just meeting one need here and there misses the point. When all the intimate emotional needs are met in a romantic date, the environment is primed for his needs to met. Have you read this article? How many dates do you get a week?

The question of the ages: How can a...age?

By Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.


How are you doing this? Are you doing this on dates outside of the home?

To answer Allan - Yes, I have read that article. It does speak to me. I've told my husband about the article and that it explains things better than I can. I asked him to read it on Friday while I was at work. He went to the website, I think with that in mind, when his adult son saw what website he was on. The three hour conversation between them became about how horrible I am, how sad my husband is and how worried adult son is now that he's moving out (news to us, he's acted like we are pariah - or maybe that was being directed at just me).

To answer Melody - no dates yet. I've asked repeatedly. I've asked for his ideas of what a date could be. He wants to do this in the house, with the young son and dogs and TV to distract us. I've tried to explain that I *need* those dates to help me and they'd probably help him, too. Still nothing. He just complains about the distractions and says that blows off answering about outside the home dates. He is against hiring a babysitter AND asking his adult children to watch our son. Even though we watch our grandchild so his daughter and son-in-law can have dates and have promised to 'return the favor' for us.

This emotional pendulum is getting too much. He tries, I try. Still nothing is getting done in the way it needs to be getting done. He's frustrated. I'm frustrated. He vents, I go hiding inside myself.

I wonder if there is a stage past SA where there is absolute sexual rejection - physically as well as emotionally. Because my body is doing the rejecting that my mouth won't.

I've tried to explain to him, after hoping he'd read the article on SA, that he can't obligate me to sex because I'm his wife AND have a willing partner who is into it like he is. Both cannot be true at the same time.

I've tried explaining that dates are far more likely to bring me to a place of willingness than wifely obligation.

He wants the fact that he did his chores around the house to be enough to make me not just willing, but enthusiastic. Night after night. He's disappointed and frustrated -and very vocal about those truths - when this doesn't work. Stumped. Feeling stupid, because the answers are right in front of me but my blinders are on again.

Oh yuck, he needs to understand that this will do nothing to make you feel emotionally attached to him. Did you show him the article I posted about sexual fulfillment?

I would also read this and start planning accordingly: When to Call It Quits (Part 1)

Yes, he liked that one.

Not so much the article on sexual aversion. Because that one means he has to be patient and put all his sexual energy into meeting my needs until I let him know I'm ready. He particularly didn't like the part about no self-gratification - ALL energy into healing this.

Quote, 'What if you're not ready until it's been so long that I can't anymore? We're not so young anymore. What will your answer be if you're finally ready, but I can't?'

I hesitated, trying to carefully consider my words and he took that as having no answer (instant answers are the only HONEST answers in his reality).

Oh, yes, I've been pointed to 'When to call it Quits' several times, including by Dr. Harley.

This time, telling hubby about this website, is my final effort to see if my husband wants a marriage with me or to continue this chaotic, painful thing we call a relationship currently. And, if he DOES want a good marriage with me, is he willing to do the work?

His current answer, at least as of Saturday - Dr. Harley is tough on men and too easy on the women. The website articles are biased against men. They're the ones having to admit they're wrong and do all the work.

My answer - You've only just begun reading, and you're reading articles based on what interests you. Once you've read all the articles and listened to the daily radio podcasts, you get a better understanding of why Dr. Harley puts the focus on one thing, or one gender, more often - depending on the subject.

Re-reading 'When to Call it Quits'. And the letters from Dr. Harley. Thanks for the reminders. My blinders are still on, but I did increase the vision field a little bit.

Sounds like you are doing great, however, I want to point out that you don't have to win debates with him. It sounds like he wants to win debates, rather than save his marriage. I hope that changes, because the only person who loses when he wins these "debates" is him in the end, because his marriage won't improve. Debating you only makes a bad situation worse.

Have you started making plans to separate? If not, I would strongly suggest you start planning now in case he doesn't make a dramatic improvement.

This tells me he is under the impression that he has lots of time. I would let him he does not.

I would also print this out and let him know that you need to start planning 4 - 4 hour dates out of the house in order to make improvement. It won't ever change unless that happens and unless he becomes very good at meeting your needs. worksheet

Unless the above changes, and changes quick, you will NEVER feel emotionally bonded to him enough to overcome sexual aversion. I would let him know this is the key and if he refuses, then there is no reason to keep wasting your time. You should make plans to separate.

Don't waste your time anymore if he won't do that because you will be spinning your wheels while your lovebank drains.

Yes. Challenges on that front, but the planning has begun.

Good girl!

This makes so much sense. I feel it to my bones that this is right. What he considers efforts are frequently ruined by love busters (why Dr. Harley suggested separation), many of which wouldn't happen if we were out of the house together on dates.

It's time to stop considering WHY he resists dates and just accept that as a fact. He resists dates with me. He doesn't see the value, therefore, he's not hearing me when I tell him what the value is. For me AND for him.

Time for me to remember, and keep remembering, that he didn't hear me about withdrawal - even though I didn't know what to call it over these years - until I was so deep into withdrawal that I had entered SA and complete shut-down as a wife.

I see for the first time (despite my best friend telling me this over and over) that he operates out of immediate gratification and crisis. In all aspects of his life. He does not see the train coming, he ignores the horn blowing. Suddenly, when the train is about to wipe him out, he's jumping around, looking for solutions, confused about why it's so bad all of a sudden. It's that wait-until-it's-a-crisis way of life that has brought about most, if not all, of our challenges.

I even talked to him about this lifestyle the other day. I'd rather put away for a rainy day and live confidently that I can face most of what comes. He'd rather play and have fun now and deal with the rainy day when it hits, even if that means panic and penalty and hardship later.

Thank you, Melody. Sometimes, typing it out, reading your posts and my own posts, and all of the helpful posts, in black and white helps sink this into my mind.

I am very glad to hear this! Have you been thinking about how you would separate?

Yes.

I have already figured out daycare for youngest son, rent if I need to, utility deposits if I don't. Accounts are already separate (at his insistence, never together). SSA to get son's money deposited to me as child support. Then, I can manage.

Details are not set yet. The biggest stumbling blocks are my guilt over 'kicking him out', no month-to-month available anywhere near here and getting our son's child support so he and I can live.

I would suggest your guilt is not appropriate because truly what you are doing is the best thing for your marriage. That is in his best interest if he ever chooses to engage in his marriage. What I mean is that you are fast approaching a point of no return. You will reach a point where you won't be able to ever turn this around no matter what he does. I think now there is a small SHRED of opportunity left if he were ever motivated to try. I think the only thing that will motivate him is separation, if anything. And that might not even work.

If it does not work, this will work out better for you in the end because you can eventually divorce. Divorce would be the definition of success in that case. The other possible outcome is that he becomes fully willing to put in the necessary work to save his marriage. Those are both successful outcomes.

What is not successful is limping along in a crippled marriage with a man who refuses to do anything. That is the worst possible outcome.


That is not your problem, that is his. Secondly, I don't think a month to month is appropriate. You will probably need to be separated for at least a year.

Keep repeating the truth to me, Melody. I am grateful to you for that.

Statements I need in my head and heart:

* I am not responsible for his consequences.
* If he has nowhere to go, he needs to find someplace.
* The old pattern is emerging - he thinks crisis is averted and returning to his old behavior patterns. With less than a week invested in saving our marriage.
* The only reason this is still going on is that I have not put on my big girl blue jeans and woman'ed up.

Keep in mind he is not really doing anything. Reading some articles is not the same as taking the necessary steps to save your marriage. Will he commit to a schedule of 20 hours per week to go out on dates? Will he commit to eliminating lovebusters? Will he commit to meeting your needs? You can ask him today if he will do those things and see if he will sit down with you and make up a date schedule.

If he won't do that, you have your answer and the time is now to move to NEXT STEPS. Dragging this out only drains your lovebank even further and makes it more and more less likely this will ever change.

Hi! I am going to cut out a letter from Dr. Harley to bring home a point to you I hope.

"When you want to talk to your husband about something that's bothering you, he gets angry with you. It's a serious problem, indeed, because when you ask for his help, you're already feeling bad. But when his response to your appeal for help is anger, you're devastated.
Skipping to talking about seperation
At first, your husband will be very angry with you, and may even file for divorce. While separated, there is even the risk that he may have an affair. But if your marriage has any hope of surviving, he won't divorce you and he won't have an affair. Instead, he will recognize the role he has played in your depression, and he will begin to take the steps that will make him the husband he should have been all along.

If he begs you not to leave him, and you give him another chance, remember that it will take months, if not years, for him to change his habits. Adding emphasis as even if he does everything correct, you are looking at years of fixing here
He will need careful and persistent monitoring of his conduct, and you must anticipate his resistance to that, especially after you decide to stay. That's why I think a separation that may last a year or more is inevitable. Your husband has a lot to learn, and it will take time to learn it.

He has agreed to make changes in the past, but just agreeing to change is only the first step. Many of the changes he will need to make will take a great deal of effort and persistence.
His goal should be providing you a home free of angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands.
Until he can guarantee that safe environment for you, you should remain separated.
That's because while he is learning new habits, he will make many mistakes. And you cannot afford to be confronted by the predictable mistakes he will make.
Wait until he has mastered the lessons of treating you with thoughtfulness and respect before you let him back into the life of you and your children.

Your biggest obstacle will be self-doubt -- wondering if you're doing the right thing.
But if you remind yourself that abusive marriages, especially those with even the slightest amount of physical abuse, are so dangerous that they should never be tolerated, you'll have confidence that you must separate. If your husband is given professional help in learning to control his temper, and he proves to you that he can handle frustration intelligently instead of emotionally, you can then live together in peace."

Here is another one

You may feel that your husband may be a victim of the harsh conditions of (his blindness). Unconditional love sometimes seems to be the most appropriate response to someone like your husband. Maybe your love will lift him out of the depression he experiences, and may eventually help him overcome his abusive behavior.

But you're sending the wrong message.
He is being led to assume that it's his response of "so what?" that makes you love him.
After all, when he is abusive, you keep loving him.
You are rewarding bad behavior.
His cold response to your effort to love him unconditionally is proof that it's misguided.

My standard advice for even the mildest forms of abuse is separation until the abuser completes a course in anger management, and takes personal responsibility for all forms of abuse, physical or verbal. If you take that important step in response to his abuse, you send the right message -- you will not tolerate abusive behavior.

Many abused wives find my advice to be impractical because they're too dependent on their husbands. It's like walking out of a lion's cage and off a cliff. Would you rather take your chances with the lion than suffer a fatal fall? Separation, of course, isn't really a fall off a cliff, but for many abused women it seems that way.

To further complicate the matter, an abusive spouse usually measures his or her abuse so it's not quite enough to warrant separation.I can see this in you throughout this entire thread-its not enough...I do love busters as well so it evens out etc
And those who occasionally cross the line usually offer sincere apologies after an attack. An appeal for forgiveness often settles the matter and almost guarantees yet another abusive incident...

In the meantime, keep your conversation fact-oriented. If he asks what's wrong with you, tell him that you are going though a period of soul-searching. "

Separation is going to give your marriage the best shot. AS Melody Lane has said, watch ACTIONS not words. He has done nothing since you said anything but read something and maybe be slightly nicer to you? The truth is he hasn't invested in your marriage -he is simply throwing crumbs.
Show him you are worth more than crumbs!
I am sorry you are going through this- have you talked to a lawyer yet? I know it is hard having done it myself. You can do it!

I was moved to tears reading your post, Elaina. This is the bold, the underline and the exclamation point to what everyone has been trying to tell me since my first post here.

He is absolutely unwilling to consider even 4 hours for UA as valuable to our marriage. Staying with him tells him that's ok. I don't REALLY need what I need. This is the message he's received. I can't blame him for receiving the message I have sent.

What I can do is decide this is unacceptable. Yes, Elaina, you are right. Melody is right. I am given crumbs because I accept crumbs. I am given tears because they worked to keep me home in the past. I am given guilt over his lack of resources because I accepted that guilt. He is acting rationally because I have reinforced all of the behavior he has shown me.

Only I can make the final decision that I have had enough. That the cliff doesn't look so steep and that I do have friends and family waiting for me when I land.

::: Deep breath ::: My stepchildren's opinions of me are not my concern. My son's mental health and emotional security ARE. My mental health and emotional security are.

Enough is enough. Crumbs aren't cutting it. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired from effort to keep this marriage together, when it hasn't been a marriage for a very long time, if it ever was.

The lawyer I worked with three years ago is not in practice locally anymore. Still, I can contact another that I've heard many good things about. I do have the financial resources to retain this lawyer. I'm off to get that lawyers name now....

Great post, Elaina!!