History: Hubby & I have been married 12+ years. My first, his second. His kids: DSD 30 years old - married w/child. DSS 25 years old - single lives with us. Our child: DS 9.

Hubby committed criminal sexual act against me before we married. Because he was disabled (legally blind) with custody of both kids (then 17 & 12), I didn't prosecute. I left. I would not have returned had DSD not written a letter to me blaming herself (already fragile teen).

After marriage, problems abounded. He'd learned nothing from Wife1 walking out. I knew nothing about being a wife or stepmother. I determined to hold on until DSS graduated high school. Well, DS came along before that happened.

Lots of fights, resentments, etc (I wish I'd known about this website then!) later and I was ready to walk out. None of my emotional needs were being met. I'd been pretty plain about that, even giving suggestions on what would help me. He 'can't', so I called the lawyer.

He cried, I stayed. That's been two years ago. I'm still struggling. I love this website, but my question goes to the basic format for all of the work. It assumes that things were good in the beginning and that both of us loved each other.

My husband admitted to marrying me because I made him 'drip a little' during our first hug. He rushed the courtship - only four months even with the crime and separation. I married him to not break his daughter's heart with the truth about her father.

Hubby does try from time to time, but usually just enough to get his sex needs met, then back to his own thing. I'm tired of trying. Though, after discovering this website, I have a glimmer of hope.

Given that hubby historically: Can't read much due to low vision, hates listening to me read anything for or to him, has vested so much in *his* hobby that he'd resist anything that suggested limiting that, hates psych 'mumbo-jumbo', resists authority and is disabled, home all day, doing as little as possible around the house.

Given that I historically: Tend to be emotionally and physically lazy, have built such a habit of emotional and factual secrecy that I'm actually scared to open up completely to him, habit built due to unkindness from hubby when I did share, can be pushy in all the wrong ways towards him.

Given that our roles are reversed but not our personalities. He's stay-at-home-Dad, I'm work-at-office Mom, we both act traditionally like societal husband and wife, though.

He has no faith and often questions the existence of God. I was raised in faith, but felt that I was out of line if I kept attending. I have changed denomination and type of church from my background, he's still not willing to attend. He says he's not blocking me from attending, but his actions are very unsupportive, to the point of being intentionally interfering. He won't even allow me to play Christian Radio in the vehicle unless I'm alone - I own the vehicle and have the only license between us.

With all this insight, will it even be worth the effort to bring this to him? Will this work even when there wasn't much love in the beginning, from either of us?

I feel that we have too many strikes against us in this marriage, but I'm willing to listen to folks who have seen this work over and over again.

Welcome to MB.

How did his first marriage end? How did you meet?

What I know from meeting her and hearing from the kids:

She was alcoholic, drug addict. She had online emotional affairs. He cheated on her at least once. Together, they bankrupted, she escaped since all was in his name.

She left him and moved in with her new boyfriend immediately. The kids ran from the boyfriend back to their father.

Between her exit and my entrance, there was a fianc� who broke things off with him while in hospital. She went no contact. We found out after we were married that the fianc� had died of the cancer he'd known about.

We met via internet dating site. His children helped him set it up. I'd been trying internet dating for a while. There was a sadness to his eyes in his profile. The data sheet had all the right answers as far as I was concerned, no games, looking for life partner.

Does he have a history of committing the sexual crime?

OTF, I read this far and wanted to address this misunderstanding because this is not true. MB does not assume things were good in the beginning and you loved each other.

To answer your question, it will work if he you both make a 100% commitment to the marriage. You can create romantic love but only if both are on board. I would read this article and follow the plan: When to Call it Quits

No, but he has pressured me to voluntarily repeat it. When I discussed divorce, one of my requirements to consider reconciling was that this option be removed from the discussion, because of the trauma of the incident and the hurt I felt from the few times I did consent after marriage.

I do now think that his attraction to that specific sexual act is what drove his fianc� away.

Melody,

Thank you for the correction about my assumption. I read the linked answer and it is giving me lots to think about.

My hesitation with Plan A/Plan B is that I've cycled between Plan A and my own solution - solitude within the marriage. I didn't know better, true, but I believe that it will give hubby the misconception again that the marriage is fine. As long as his sexual needs are met, he considers the marriage fine.

I only found this website this week, so I know I have a lot to learn. Still, on my own, I was getting close to this approach.

The only reason hubby and I have discussed my issues *is* because I have declared my 'sex' well empty. That he can prime that pump and refill the well with affection. That, until the well has SOME water back in it, sex is not something I can offer right now.

I'm still frustrated that, knowing this, he offered to cuddle last night, which was great. Until he demanded that sex return soon (I gave a cuddle, where's my sex, please?). This was made worse after I rolled over. He reached out to touch me and after a brief swipe of a thigh, groped me. When I stated, 'No groping please.' he responded with, 'But I was just... never mind.'

The events last night were what drove me to go ahead and ask my question.

After reading more on this site, including others' posts, I realize that I have been very emotionally lazy.

Before finding this site, I had begun an exit plan - the same as Plan B without the expectation of reconciliation.

Most of my exit plan is still in place. One challenge confronts me and I'd appreciate opinions on this.

Because I work and my husband is home all day, he provides 'day care'. Our son is only 9 and therefore is too young to be a latch key kid. Also, his niece, hubby's granddaughter is dropped off for him to watch while her parents both work. She even rides the same school bus and is dropped at our house during the school year.

The two young folks get along reasonably well most of the time. Both my stepdaughter and I would rather this continued even if I separated from hubby.

Also of note, the house is mine from before the marriage, paid in full by my inheritance. If we divorce, because of the work he's put into the house, I would consider letting him buy me out of that house and getting another.

So, if I look into Plan A / Plan B and it does come down to Plan B, should I still move out or should I stay and insist he moves out?

Plan A does not mean you give him the impression all is well. It means you tell him clearly what you need in a marriage and then for the next 3 weeks, do your best job of meeting his needs. If he doesn't meet your conditions, then you separate.


I would ask him to spend 20-25 hours per week on dates meeting each other needs. Have you read this?

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

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I would be honest with him about groping, a huge turnoff!! http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8122_groping.html

I want to be clear what happened here, but am not sure how much is OK to share on the forum.

The act is one not enjoyed by all people, but very enjoyable to those who are fans. I am no fan. I made that clear from the beginning of the relationship.

He performed that act on me in my sleep, without my consent. By the time I awoke, he had nearly completed his enjoyment.

I left, he begged and pursued me with promises it would never happen again. Then, I got his daughter's letter blaming herself for being such a bad person as the reason I left - he had told them nothing. I made him promise again, and we reconciled. We then married.

The requests to repeat that particular act didn't start until we'd been married over a year.

Thinking I was being a good wife, I tried. Between my own aversion to that act and the memories of the premarital crime, I was re-traumatized. I refused again to ever do that again.

It became his pattern to plead, beg, swear it was part of his sexual needs, threaten to cheat and stop just short of repeating his crime. When I complained that I didn't want to hear about that, he'd comply. For a while. Then, it would start again months later.

When I'd had enough, I threatened divorce, seeing a lawyer and preparing to file.

He pleaded in tears for me to reconsider. I told him that one thing that was not negotiable was any more discussion or attempts related to that one sexual act. Nearly everything else, I hoped, could be worked on. He promised. I did not file.

It took six months for him to break that promise. We'd even seen a marriage counselor by then. We didn't stay with the therapy and his take-away was that I had unmet needs. Well, he had unmet needs, too. Specifically that one sexual act. When I called him on it, he pleaded again, saying that I shouldn't hold him accountable for the first 'slip-up' in months. In that moment, my well went dry.

That was almost six months ago.

I still want to save this marriage, but after typing this out, I really don't know if that would be best for me. Or our son.

I had read that article, but not printed it out or read it for him. That's why I thought to state, 'No groping, please'.

I've now got this article printed out so I can read it to him. I've also printed out a bunch of the worksheets.

I may get the e-versions of Dr. Harley's books, or audio so hubby can listen for himself (since he dislikes so strongly when I read to him). Or both, so I can read and he can listen.

So much work to do.

I will say that hubby did try last night. He did make a large deposit into my love bank. Not enough to set the account to rights, but enough to get my attention and appreciation.

Heading to bed, I was saddened, though. Like the night before with the cuddle, he made his usual gestures that let me know he expects sex, without directly asking for it.

Go to bed very early, asking if I was going to bed or staying up. (I've learned 'going to bed' means I also want sex, 'staying up' means I don't.) I say staying up for a bit longer.
Get in bed naked and not turn on the A/C right away.

I got ready for bed, but used the already-agreed-upon signal that I was not in the mood - not going to bed naked. I was still upset, though. Because he'd made TWO deposits into my love bank and he expected that overdrawn account to be right enough for a withdrawal. I'll admit, I was angry, too.

He said he was ok with no sex, but his tone told me he was irritated. I guess he thought a foot rub would SURELY get him what he wants. ONE foot rub. In over a year.

Am I wasting my time even trying? Is my love bank so overdrawn that the account is closed? Even when he tries, and I do appreciate him trying, I resist him.

I've read the Aversion to Sex article. I've read nearly every article on this website! I get that I have to give him time. I struggle with that knowing that he'll work hard for a season, but slack off as soon as his work pays off.

And I don't know how many more times I can open up, give him my love, share my body and have him go right back to this same man who hurts me with his distance.

Have you followed the steps in the article?

Oh, no, that's a common misconception about Marriage Builders. MB does not assume things were good in the beginning. MB has been known to work for couples where things were never good.

Another common misconception about MB is that a wife should hang on and keep trying even if her husband tells her he can't do these things. Nothing could be further from the truth. MB does not teach that a wife should try to drag her husband along and "be a good wife" and hope he someday starts reciprocating; MB says that that approach does not work and gives the wife a slow painful death.

I only discovered that article yesterday. No, I have not started implementing it.

Thank you for responding, Marcos. you are very right. I've been reading so much in the past three days since I discovered this website.

Sometimes, I haven't fully finished an article before I became upset and looked away. Now, I'm trying to finish the articles and seeing so much of the wisdom Dr. Harley has shared.

One of the articles I hadn't read completely was about overcoming aversion to sex.

I really need encouragement that this is even possible. I can't even read the whole article without becoming very tense and upset. I have read 90% before I had to take a break.

I'm also jumping from article to article and I'm not really sure where I need to start anymore.

I don't think I can work through the aversion to sex until hubby and I work on the whole respectful relationship (from both sides, I'm surely no angel). Besides his incident, I have a history that includes rape and sexual harassment. There is a lot going on there that is the luggage I brought on this trip.

With a marriage in free-fall and my aversion to sex and the fact that both of our love banks are empty, where do he and I start? What is a practical, logical first step?

I would start here. Start by telling him what you need, ie: meet your needs, spend 20-25 hrs per week in UA time, etc. If he won't do that, then you should plan to separate.

Thank you. That is what I will bring to him this evening.

We can sit down, go over this and decide what he both feel about this relationship. If he is willing.

You do know you don't give him that article, right? All you do is tell him what it will take to make you happy. Here is an article you can review with him. One critical part of recovery will be spending 20-25 hours per week meeting each others emotional needs. In your situation, it would not be a good idea to meet his need for sex until and unless you are enthusiastic. Otherwise you will deepen your aversion and that won't help the marriage at all. How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

After I answered and went to re-read the article, I quickly figured that out. Thank you for the reminder.

Besides, I'm in no way ready to implement plan B. I have some parts in place, but not the full package. So, no plan A until I have plan B ready, anyway! I can be taught. I may be slow sometimes, but I really do get there. Thanks for being patient.

I do appreciate everyone's responses. I want/need to vent a bit. I understand that most folks who discover this website do so because their marriage is in tatters. Mine is as well.

However, I would like to state for the record that I have 98-100% surety that my husband is not currently physically cheating on me. I am 100%certain that I am not cheating emotionally, physically or with my time. In fact, if my husband 'cheats' on me, it's with and for his hobby.

When I brought up my concerns about his hobby, I was rebuffed. Every effort to reign in the hobby to reasonable levels starts as a discussion and usually ends up with me feeling bullied until I gave in. Sometimes there have been angry outbursts on both sides. This happened often enough, I started thinking, 'This is not the hill I want to die on.' Still, my blood is all over that battlefield.

But a hobby is not a OW. How do I fight a hobby? This isn't the first hobby he's had that got out of control. He would not listen to me until some third person saw how he was about the hobby and wondered to hubby HOW I put up with that? Then, he'll see how out of control he's been, apologize, cut back on that hobby (or end it all together). But, within months, he's begun a new hobby. This hobby, he laughs an 'aw, shucks' laugh like he's getting away with something. He's not giving this hobby up.

When I'm discussing this with him, do I have to just let the history, including the pattern, go? Do I stick with just the hobby I'm tired of competing with? Is it possible that he is having an 'emotional affair' with his hobby?

It will help to know what they were/are, these hobbies.

First was motorcycles. After his third wreck, while I was pregnant, he sold the motorcycles.

Next was amateur radio. We both got involved, thinking it would be fun. Well, it took over, replacing me and our newborn son as the focus of most of his time. Our son was almost 4 when that hobby was reduced to reasonable levels. He still has that hobby, I gave it up.

This hobby hurt badly. He'd be in the room, with his back turned to us, headphones on. If we even made noise, he'd fuss at us. But, he wanted the radio in the living room because.... he didn't want to be isolated and apart from his family. UGH!

Next was trains. I figured a 4-year-old would enjoy wooden track trains. Our son did. Hubby decided to go outside logic and build an electric train set, complete with mountains, etc. This hobby completely alienated his son, who was considered too young to touch ANYTHING hubby was working on. Only when hubby realized he spent more time outside in the train room than inside with his family did he sell all of the train stuff. By then, our son was 6 and had got used to the idea that Dad was always too busy for us.

Now, the hobby is guns and reloading. He'd always wanted to get into reloading, but his first wife refused. He bought and sold guns so much he ended up with a retail license back then. I wouldn't allow that, but I allowed the reloading.

That has now taken over our lives. I sincerely believe he can't go one week without doing something in that hobby. He's spent a fortune, and I mean a fortune, on parts, supplies, tools, guns, equipment. If he doesn't get to go to the gun range at least twice a month, he is ill, hard to get along with. I start getting blamed as I am his transportation.

He's on the internet researching when he's not reloading or test firing or processing shot brass. He gets mad at me if we go to the range and I don't offer to, or want to, get on hands and knees and look for spent brass left by other shooters. I've been fussed at for picking up certain calibers (I don't care to learn, still I do now know) or for NOT picking up certain calibers. I am not enthusiastic about this endeavor at all.

But, if I waited until I was enthusiastic to carry him to the gun range, wait all day until he calls for his ride home and go get him home, he'd never go. Seriously. It isn't that I am angry about it. It's that he gets his recreation time to dive into his hobby and if I even try to spend an hour diving into my hobby (small expense, mostly internet research - ancestry), then I'm 'stealing' time from the family.

*** OK, guys, I've vented enough. I'm not even sure what my original point was supposed to be. Maybe that, being new to this site, I'm concerned about how quickly folks jump to the conclusion that one or the other spouse is cheating. Also, that many of the tools are for after a cheater gets caught. How am I supposed to implement that with no affair going on? Emotionally cheating with a hobby is not the same thing. It's actually tougher to defend against! HELP! ****

If you went to the doctor with backache, he would start with the most likely explanation which would be right 80% of the time. Once he had explored that and found it was wrong, he would move to the next possiblity.



No you are wrong and what you state is enormously hurtful to those of us who have experienced the pain of adultery. He is not 'emotionally cheating with a hobby'. What you describe is Independent Behaviour (IB). It is clear that your husband gets deeply passionate about his hobbies and that you have become resentful which is quite understandable. But the solution is for BOTH of you to give up your independent hobbies; he the guns and you the ancestry search. Then find something that you both love. Start brain storming today. Nothing more exciting than looking for something brand new to learn/play/do. Do not try to make this into family time, you already know that does not work for him.

Keep this hobby for the 20-25 hours a week of Undivided Attention (UA) time. You can have intimate conversations while you climb/build/sew. This will allow you to fall in love without the threat of a sexual demand, so easier for you too.

I just reread your thread and didn't see one response to you that talked about an affair. Who said this to you?

They talked about UA and Sex aversion and when to call it quits. But where did anyone jump to the conclusion that there was an affair?

Have you read this and listen to the radio clips? The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Have you read this? How to Overcome Independent Behavior

This really is unfair of me and I must own that I was out of line. At no time has any response to me mentioned any suspicion of an affair. Please accept my sincere apology.

I am frustrated that I read the material and others' posts and so very much is focused on affairs. I understand that not getting these issues into the light is devastating to a marriage and often does lead to an affair.

It may just be that I am fortunate to be seeking answers before an affair happened.

Perhaps it is that I am ignorant regarding relationships. I am reading, learning and still have not taken in the most important part of this website that likely seems so obvious to all of you who know the material and have made it work in your own lives. I have not yet got it into my mind how close I may be to the line. Just because I am frustrated and unsure how to make this work in my situation does not give me any right to post as I did.

Making my vent post was a mistake. It was unkind and unfair. I may be able to edit or remove the post, but I can't change how it made those who did read it feel. For that pain, I am sorry.

I'm going to step away from posting, while I re-read all the material available and try to make sense of it. Hopefully, when I return, it will be with a better appreciation of you fine folks reading what I type. At least this way I can't hurt anyone else with my words.

I totally understand and trust me when I say, many of us wish we would have found MB before experiencing an affair.

I don't think you necessarily need to stop posting (unless you need to absorb it all in) but definitely come back and ask your questions.

We do understand how distressing and frustrating this must be for you. Regard this post as a book mark of your state of mind at the start of your journey. Just thinking about problems can make them temporarily feel worse before you start to tackle them.

A romantic relationship can be created out of what you now have if you are both willing. Your husband will be nervous about the changes, be gentle and encouraging.

Have you had a chance to read this and listen to the radio clips?

That is how we all were when we came here!

While you are checking out all the resources available, be sure to get the app and start listening to the free Marriage Builders Radio show. That is the key that put it all together for most of us.

As an update:

I've begun discussing some of the things I've learned here. I haven't shared this website yet, but I think that's coming soon.

Thank you to this website and to all the posters on this forum.

What I've learned here I have applied, in part. I'm not that good, to just change everything on a dime. Still, I've had better words to describe what I need from him and why what he's been doing hasn't been working (doing as he'd like me to do for him, expecting that to do the same for me).

It's making a difference. He appears to be getting it and he has definitely been trying. I want to trust this change and trust him to keep it up, but it's hard.

But doubt hasn't left completely. He's done this before - finally shown me some affection for a while. If he doesn't get all his needs met 100% of the time, then he stops even trying to fill my needs.

It's as if he keeps a tally in his head. If he does one thing in my 'love language' he expects one (sometimes more) thing done for him in his 'love language'.

I have been using a well analogy with him, instead of the love bank. Still, I tried to explain that the years of neglect have left my well empty and that he can't just splash a bucket in there and expect to draw water right back out. During our conversation, I thought he understood what I meant.

Still, he's showing me that he's not afraid to step up his requests for his needs just because he's met a few of mine (refusing to accept that groping negates the hugs or to understand that yelling at our son is a love-buster for me).

I'm so new to all of this and I want to keep moving forward.

Is it unusual to still feel the resentment and dread from the time that my needs weren't being met at all? Just because he asked for one of his needs to be met?

Last night, he asked me to rub his back. It helps meet his needs to be tended to. I have a right to refuse, but still feel an obligation to comply just because he cooked dinner that night and didn't yell at our son when normally he would have. Because of that sense of obligation (he met my needs, or at least didn't love-bust), I resented doing for him and dreaded bedtime because I knew it was going to be all about him once again.

I tried to release and let go of the obligation feelings and the dread and just enjoy doing something for someone I love. I mostly succeeded, but just before going to sleep, I did fall back into resentment that bedtime always seems to be about him and his needs.

Is it normal to take a while to let go of those negative feelings?

How many hours of UA time are you getting each week?

Undivided is none. Focused is the best we can do right now, with me working full time, him being daycare for our DS9, and us having four dogs who listen only to my husband.

Focused, where we concentrate on each other and communicate is only about 4-7 hours, and that is an improvement lately.

It's not set-aside time, except when we're already in bed. It's 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there, maybe an hour at bedtime.

We both are still learning how to listen to each other and really hear what the other is saying. To have been married so long it is sad that we both have been so unaware of the others' feelings.

I've been reading other threads and now feel that I must get my own AO under control as a priority. I've been getting better, but have realized how both of us give ourselves permission to go too far. I can't control my husband, but I certainly can control myself!

That seems like the most logical place to start. Get myself under control, listen to the radio clips and learn how to do that most effectively. Implement what I learn. THEN, focus on the next biggest issue in the marriage.

This plan will not work unless you are getting 15 hours of UA a week, alone and outside of the house. 15 minutes here and 30 minutes there will not cause you to fall in love. Your needs will continue to go unmet.

You cannot leave this step out.

Is your husband willing to work with you to find the 15 hours?

No, I have not asked for 15 hours UA yet. I have little faith that asking would result in the time, based on our history.

He does not believe that couples with children should 'be so selfish' as to 'fail their responsibilities' as parents and 'dump their kids on babysitters'.

I know this is something he still believes because I have asked for a return to once a week, or every other week, date night. The reasons sited above were given for his 'no' response. Every effort I've made over the past two years to have some time to ourselves, outside of the bedroom, has failed.

Have you read this? The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I had, but, like so many I guess, I said inside my own head - 'That will never work for my husband and me. No way he gives up his TV time or hobby time enough to give me 15 hours.'

Then, I had to get real and own my own hesitation. 'No way I want to be apart from my son for an additional 15 hours! I'm already away 50 hours a week for work!'

So, to my mind, it's time to tell my husband about this website. To print out and bring home several of the worksheets and printed articles.

It's time for me to put it to my husband that I think this may be the last best hope of saving our marriage. That I'm willing to try the lessons, books, radio articles, whatever I have to if it means saving our marriage. Not just saving it, but moving it from surviving to thriving.

I don't think either of us has considered what it would feel like to feel genuinely in love, genuinely devoted to each other. I know that at various times in our marriage, we each were very devoted to the other. It just seems that we were shouting our own love language and not even trying to speak that of the other. When that didn't give us the responses we wanted, we gave up.

What's that definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, then, time for something different.

Time to end the excuses (my own), share this website, use the tools and commit to 15-30 hours. Explain to our son that this is vital to making the marriage healthy between me and his Dad. He's old enough to get that. Explain to our daughter (unless we hire a non-relative babysitter) that we are working on our marriage and we need this much time.

Who knows, maybe I will finally end my TV addiction and hubby will realize he'd rather be with his family than his hobby buddies.

Thank you for the link and for keeping at me until I heard you.

Wow, the walls I have up didn't look this tall when I was building them. They've served what I thought I wanted well, but it's time they come down. Just the thought of tearing them down is scary. Too bad, onthefence608. Too bad. Down, they must come.

UPDATE: I wrote Dr. Harley on Friday. He's already answered and I'm trying to wrap my head around his suggestion.

He recommended his book 'Love Busters' and to separate. Not as a Plan A or Plan B separation, just separate, with daily contact.

I've been dwelling on this all night. Only now, as I type this do I think I understand why it has to be separation. Until I can stop 'martyring' myself and ask clearly for what I need, and he can demonstrate a lasting willingness to add love units to my account, we don't need to be under the same roof.

Until BOTH of us can get our AO's eliminated, we don't need to be under the same roof.

My challenge right now is to STOP coming up with excuses why to not separate and to get busy figuring out how to make it work.

Separating and/or divorcing are so much harder than being good to each other. More expensive, too! In time, effort, money, feelings.

I'm headed to the book store, time to not 'prepare to' and time to get busy buying and reading that book.

So are you planning to separate?

Good luck, OTF - Dr. Harley's advice is the best.

It's a bit of a challenge. Where I live, if there hasn't been physical abuse, I cannot compel him to leave. I can only ask. Both times I've asked before, he refused. Legally, there isn't much I can do at that point.

It's complicated by the fact that my husband is on disability, has really nowhere to go, can't drive and provides 'child care' for our son and granddaughter when they're not in school.

I have had conversations over the years with my stepdaughter about allowing her father to move in with her and her husband. That has always been met with great resistance based on how my husband treats her husband. I don't know if she'd allow it when faced with the reality that I want him out of the house.

OTF, you should be able to file for legal separation or file for divorce and get a court agreement as to whether you stay in the house or he stays in the house. Talk to your lawyer; let them know that your counselor has advised that you need to separate for your emotional and physical well being; ask them how to get this implemented legally.

As for where your husband is going to live, don't try to solve that problem for him.

The smart* in me started listing all the rest of the stuff I'll have to do, even if the courts allow me to stay in the home.

I hadn't thought of calling Dr. Harley my counselor and saying that he has advised that I separate and/or divorce. Let alone saying that it is for my health and safety. I don't know how that will fly in this state, but that's why I need to ask. Thank you very, very much for stating the obvious. I got focused on these trees and missed the forest.

The one I don't know how to do is to shut off the worry of what will happen to him. Regardless of everything else, he is the father of my son and stepchildren.

Not every state has something called "legal separation," but my understanding is that in those states that don't, legal separation can be implemented by filing for divorce. That's what a person has to do to get a separation in Texas.

After divorce is filed the courts do step in and enforce separation and support and such while the divorce is still pending, and if there's reconciliation the divorce proceedings can simply be canceled.

My state only allows three narrow reasons for divorce: Drunkenness (addiction is now allowed, but only the known drugs), physical abuse (emotional doesn't count, must be proven with police/medical reports) or adultery. Without those reasons, a couple must be separated a year before divorce can be filed.

That's what stinks. In this state, they don't help because they don't support divorce. Even after I get him out somehow, I will have to file for a legal separation, which will start the calendar for the year separation leading to divorce. I have to stay aware the whole year. If he spends even one evening (4+ hours) under the same roof, the separation is void and has to be started all over again.

During the year separation, we will be required to pay for and attend mediation in an attempt to reconcile. The divorce will not be granted unless this step is completed and reported to the courts. We both will also be required to take parenting courses since we have a minor child. Proof of completion for this is also required before the divorce is finalized in court.

The only good part is that the courts will give a temporary child visitation/support order to be followed during the separation. My husband is likely to be ordered to give at least half of the 'support of minor child' disability he gets for our son to me. He will fight this.

That's the legal stuff I'm facing.

Last night, I didn't have the courage to ask for the divorce, but I did have the courage to not fill his needs since I couldn't do so enthusiastically. My refusal did start a conversation where, for the umpteenth time, I explained about my needs going unmet for over a decade (affection, recreational time, financial support, family support - how he treats our son). I explained that I cannot go on meeting his needs with none of mine being met in any consistent way.

My stepdaughter already gave me the tools I need to proceed. We're watching her daughter tonight. Next weekend, she's keeping our son overnight. So, next weekend is when I make it clear that the minor efforts he's been making, while noted and appreciated, cannot overcome the decade of neglect. For myself and for our son, I want a divorce.

Given how last night's conversation was one of the calmest we've ever had about these subjects, I have confidence that I'll be able to get through next weekend without AO's or DJ's - at least from me.

Was it wrong to be resistant and skeptical about my husband's efforts this morning to finally show me some affection? Is it wrong to feel that he didn't get the whole message, that it's not just about affection, but those other needs as well?

How do I live with this man for the next week knowing I want a divorce, but that I'm not ready to bring up the subject just yet? And knowing he's going to suddenly be trying to at least show me affection - hoping I'll end his 2 week sex drought?

I know these may be unanswerable except by me. I've got to stop trying to make crumbs into a feast and calling this marriage and telling myself it's good enough.

I don't see much point to "asking for a divorce." You talk to a lawyer about a divorce, not your spouse.

I'd give your husband a printout of the Basic Concepts and let him know that when he wants to start doing everything there, then the two of you can talk. And let him know that if he would like some help, he can email Dr. Harley for help at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and talk to Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce.

I don't understand why you are waiting.

You don't need to have some big, dramatic, emotional conversation with him in which you let him know you want a divorce. That's the kind of thing you see on TV, but doesn't need to happen in real life. It's unproductive drama. Don't argue that it's not -- it is, or otherwise why would you have to wait until a weekend when your child is out of the house to have the conversation? It's unproductive, harmful drama. Avoid it.

Get a lawyer. Your lawyer can let him know you want a divorce. And you don't have to wait a week to do it.

Now I feel like a stupid-head. I'll give my reasons for waiting for our son to be out of the house.

Last time, two and a half years ago, I did go see the lawyer first. I came home and made my announcement that I had seen the lawyer and that I wanted a divorce.

I made it clear that I didn't believe any promises made at that point. He begged, cried, promised and I kept telling him that it was over. He reminded me that he had nowhere to go and no way to get anywhere anyway. I knew that. Our children overheard all of this.

I caved and allowed that we would try one more time. But, that he'd have to do most of the trying.

Things were better for a few months. He asked me to promise that I would tell him when things weren't good and that I'd talk to him before seeing another lawyer. I made that promise to him.

Fast forward to this decision. It isn't that I'm looking for some dramatic scene. It's that he still has no resources, no prospects, no place to go and is disabled, thus unable to get himself anywhere anyway.

It's that I don't want the fact that I know our children can hear me be so cold and calm in the face of his pleadings to keep me from sticking to my plan. I don't know that I'm strong enough to withstand seeing him cry. And, if past predicts future, he will cry. I don't want his boys to see him cry and beg and still be rejected by me.

I feel like the 10th grader being asked to sit in on the graduate college level course. I understand what is being said, I understand the words anyway. I just have no idea HOW to make sense of it, internalize it and get it done.

OTF, I agree with Prisca, there is no reason to wait. Just go into another room and have this discussion. Your son knows something is wrong and will eventually have to be told why you are separating.

I don't see much point to "asking for a divorce." You talk to a lawyer about a divorce, not your spouse.

I would skip the announcement. I don't see the point to making an announcement.

I would tell my children privately I am getting a divorce and why.

Update, I still haven't asked for the separation. Though I do have more hope that he has a resource. His daughter may allow him to temporarily move in with her and her family.

I did clearly ask for hubby and me to go out to dinner together Saturday night, while our daughter had our son over for a sleep-over. Even though there was no good reason offered, he stated he preferred to order takeout. I told him I was disappointed.

I did further let myself down, giving in to his absolute expectation that, because we had the house to ourselves and he'd rubbed my feet, that we would be having sex that night.

I caved, again, like I always do. Because I make a decision that I'd rather cave, give him sex and get some sleep than listen to the hours-long lecture about how he's trying (which he is), I'm cold (in his view whenever he doesn't get sex it's because I'm cold), I expect too much from him (possible) and he's only human (one of many subtle threats to cheat).

Ironically, I gave the sex and STILL got the lecture. And, because I didn't try to defend myself - except against outright lies or accusations of cheating - he now believes that he's made his points and that I'm fully back on board. Which, to him, means that I should be happy, fun to be around and desiring of lots and lots of sex.

The only good thing I did Saturday night was NOT give false reassurances when he as much as asked for them. He made a point of telling me how much it hurts him when I don't give those reassurances. Still, he got sex. He got to say his piece (even though that started with him asking why I wasn't happy). So, he didn't dwell too much on my lack of reassurances that all was wonderful.

I keep digging myself deeper into this hole and I can't seem to put the shovel away! Things won't go better until I can stand up for myself, say what is true (without being intentionally cruel) and deal with the consequences.

I hope the book gets here soon.

Update with a question:

I'm still with hubby, because I just can't figure out how to make a separation work. It's complicated when he's vision impaired.

Since I'm still there, I've been working on my own AO's - they're almost all gone. I think a lot of them, but they don't get spoken anymore. There are still disrespectful judgments in my head. I know these affect how I treat him, but typically, I just keep to myself and keep quiet.

I have also been working on increasing the meeting of his needs - appreciation and sex. This hasn't been easy as I'm pretty sure that I'm withdrawn now. I still have love for my husband, but I am definitely not in love with him.

I now dread any kindness or effort to fulfill my needs. I dread them because he usually expects his needs met every time he performs any act of kindness or filling of my needs.

It happened again last night. While I was at work, working unusually hard due to circumstances at work, he did the laundry for me. He even tried to use my preferred methods (he doesn't really know what that is except that it means smaller loads). Well, he got the laundry done and cooked dinner. This is the first time in months that he actually did these things on the same day.

I thanked him, sincerely! I was not looking forward to trying to get the laundry caught up that night. The dinner was delicious. He only had one angry outburst towards our son at dinner (that's good for hubby). So, I complimented all the things he'd done and done well. I let him know that I appreciated all of it very much. I gave him hugs to let him know I was sincerely appreciative.

I left the house to run an errand for him - willingly. After folding up and putting away most of the laundry (he only washes & dries), running his errand, checking our son's homework and giving our son his medicine, I finally sat down to relax. Which was not easy as he was running a noisy machine in the living room (part of his hobby, I've politely complained in the past - he still runs it as if I've said nothing).

He demanded that I write down the items from a magazine that he would purchase for my birthday (said it like a request, but when I didn't comply within a timeframe HE thought reasonable - say 5 minutes, repeated it as a demand, then a threat that he wouldn't buy anything if I didn't comply immediately). It was hard to still want those things - nobody likes to feel pressured to pick out their gift with a clock ticking.

Within half an hour of that incident (after he asked me to write it over again - with his vision, I don't question those kinds of requests), he had to ask if he was getting sex that night.

No romantic evening. No show of passion at all. No attempt even to hug, kiss, hold hands or otherwise show any affection. He had done the laundry and accepted my list of birthday items. So, he felt justified in asking , 'Are we doing anything tonight?' Be still my heart.

So, at last, to my question. Can a demand sound like a respectful, refuse-able question and still be a demand?

If past predicts future and past 'reasonable sounding' questions that didn't get the response he expected were met with anger, frustration and sometimes even disrespectful judgments, is it unreasonable of me to be offended by certain questions now? Especially one as sensitive and 'loaded' as that one?

Or, am I being disrespectful by always assuming the worst and not giving my husband a chance to show me he's trying to change? Am I being unfair when I reject him because of the sheer volume of history of past hurts?

Though he was so 'matter-of-fact' and completely unromantic and didn't even attempt to 'win me over' once in bed, he got his way. He doesn't concern himself with why it's been weeks, just that he's waited weeks and sex is his due for being my husband at all. Especially if he's done ANYTHING that a reasonable man/house-husband would do if home all day. At least, that's how it feels to me.

I just wanted to check myself, if I'm the problem. I may not like hearing that I'm the problem, but if it's true, then I do need to hear it.

That sounds so sad and unsustainable. Do you all get out of the house for dates? That would cut down his AOs and listening to loud machines in the house. Can you two get away, does that eliminate the demands?

Yes.

WHAT is your husband doing to change? Be specific. What plan is he following? Have you shared this plan with him?

I have not shared this plan with him. I have shared what I've learned here, both in better control over myself and in specific examples of what bothers me - without getting angry myself.

He has no plan that he's following. Not a specific plan anyway. He's trying to calm down before expressing what I see on his face as anger. He's apologizing more quickly and more often when he sees that his DJ's have hurt me or our son. He's choosing more respectful words to make the same point he would have shouted or been hurtful before.

Specific examples:

Before my threat of divorce:

Him: Pull something out for dinner tomorrow.
Me: Do you have something you'd prefer to cook?
Him: I don't care (rude attitude)! That's why I asked you to do it!
Me: When I decide what to pull out, I will.

Half an hour goes by.

Him: What did you pull out for dinner?
Me: I haven't decided yet. It's only 7:30, there's plenty of time.
Him: Still, how can I plan if you don't decide! (angering)
Me: Then YOU decide and pull it out. I'll be fine with whatever you choose.
Him: I don't know, that's why I told YOU to do it an hour ago! (clearly angry now).

*** Now ***
Him: Please pull something out for me to cook tomorrow.
Me: Do you have a preference?
Him: I was thinking spaghetti, but what do you think?
Me: Spaghetti actually sounds pretty good!
Him: Do you want me to pull out the ground beef? Or will you?
Me: I will, before I get to bed.

Half an hour later
Him: I pulled out the ground beef (slightly superior sounding)
Me: Thank you, hubby! That does make my evening nicer.
Him: You're welcome (sounding sincere now, lost arrogant tone)

**** Through the new way, I still tense up on the first questions. Every once in a while he slips into the old way. Then, I feel guilty for doubting him when most times are the new way.

I want to share with him, but am not sure what he'll make of it all.

Reading is a challenge with his very low vision. He HATES, HATES, HATES for me to read to him, but reading more than a couple of pages gives him a very bad headache. This is one hesitation I've had with sharing a website with so much reading involved.

We haven't dated since within 6 months of getting married. He's often used the excuse of children at home. His son was 13 when we married, old enough to be left alone for a few hours.

Now, that one is an adult and could babysit (still lives with us) for our 9-year-old if he's not working.

I've tried the list of activities with hubby. So far, unless it's related to his hobby, he has zero interest. I have zero interest in his hobby - though I do provide any required transportation. The noisy machine is in the living room because he loves his hobby and also wants to spend time with me (it was in the spare bedroom that is now his hobby room).

I tried humor, gentle requests and plain speaking to get him to remove that machine from the living room. It's still there.

His AO's are less than they used to be. His DJ's are still pretty rough, yet less cruel than they used to be.

If we get away together, he then assumes that he will get his needs met and demands that to be so. If he does anything kind for me, he assumes he deserves to get his needs met and is not shy to demand them.

I don't even want my birthday presents at this point. Because today (when he ordered them) and the day they arrive, and our anniversary and my birthday, he will believe that he is owed his needs met because he's 'been a good boy'.

Under that logic, based on how he treats me, I must never be a 'good girl' enough to 'deserve' my needs met as well.

Man that sounds awful trying to do this on your own like that. I spent too long in Plan A with my Xh and needed antidepressants it was so difficult and I found out after that I was harming my marriage by giving in like that. When I wanted nothing more than a good marriage with him.

How about listening to the radio show together? It has helped me a lot to understand what I need in my marriage and what to do instead of settling. My second marriage is so much easier I am comfortable asking for what I need and stopping Love Busters when they first start. I don�t know if you can save this but I think Plan B or the radio show will give you a good shot at it.

I listen by myself right now. Yes, it's time to tell him about Marriage Builders and get him listening to the radio show.

Right now, I think it might be better if he listens on his own and I listen on my own and we talk about our take-away-s. That way, I can prevent myself getting defensive just by listening to 'triggering' things. We're in such a place that I feel critical judgment even when he isn't giving critical judgment. My defenses are so strong right now that I will assume that he will respond now as he has in the past and already begin my 'defense strategy' for having my thoughts and beliefs.

Thank you for the encouragement. I'm very glad your second marriage is what a good marriage should be.

This is not a program that you can follow on your own. You have to share it with your husband, and he has to be a willing and active participant.

And he needs to get into Anger management and needs to stop his AOs. Have you read the "what to do with an angry husband thread?"

Yes, I've read that and many other articles, along with listening to the radio broadcasts.

My issue right now is how to separate and how to define what my terms are for us to reunite. Or to go ahead and file for divorce if those terms can't/won't be met.

It's the expense that has me stumbled at the moment. And the lack of available apartments/trailers/etc.

What about asking him to move out?

As he's pointed out to me so often, he has nowhere to go. My hunt was with the idea of either him or me and our son moving out. I know it would help, and surprise and upset, him if I had a place picked out.

He's disabled (nearly blind) and not motivated to do this search himself. Even if I warn him that he has 30 days to go. He will passively-aggressively not look and complain when the 30 days are up that he couldn't find anything.

Having done this search myself, that's actually true in this area. So, It will probably serve me best with follow-through if I already have a place picked out when I tell him we need to separate. If it's safe enough for me and our son, it's safe enough for him as well.

First, you don't need to pick out a place for him or be involved in that decision at all. Part of separating is, well ... separating. It means he will need to make decisions for himself, and you will need to make decisions for yourself.

When I kicked my husband out, he found a place to live. He was motivated by the fact that he didn't want to sleep in his car. Your husband can figure that out.

Second, are you going to tell him about this program?

First, I know I don't *need* to help him if I choose to separate. I know that. Still....

Second - yes.

Still ...??

Yes. He is disabled, nearly fully blind. I do feel like scum of the earth if I just walk away or kick him out.

To put this into perspective of the weak-minded person I can be: I can't kick out his 25 year old son, who has a college degree and a fantastic job. The man is ready to be on his own and needs to be for himself and for us, but I can't bring myself to tell him it's time for him to go.

If I can't kick HIM out, knowing he'd be fine if I did, then I certainly can't stomach kicking out his father, my husband. Because I know my husband would be unable to attend to his own needs (buying groceries, getting to/from a doctor, etc.).

He is completely reliant on me, his adult son or his adult daughter for anything requiring transportation. The adult children have begun saying no to him. That may change if I walk out, at least for his daughter.

Walking away from him, or sending him away, is more guilt than I can stand up against right now.

It's good for me to have to write this stuff out. I am shocked at how enabling I sound. I've been putting up with a lot of junk because I just can't bring myself to even separate - because of what he will face!

I must reach that place where I can say to him, when he cries and tells me he has no place to go, 'You should have thought about that before you took me for granted and continued talking to me like I was a child. You are now free to enjoy all the independent behavior you want! It is no longer my concern if you have no place to go.'

I am obviously not there yet.

Have you contacted Dr. Harley?

Yes. His recommendation was separation with daily contact - dating possibly. No reconciliation until I and our 9-year-old both agree.

It is my enabling and concern for hubby's safety that keep me 'stuck in the middle' and not moving forward.

If you allow yourself to get to that point, your marriage will very likely not be salvageable.

What has your H done to stop his AOs?

He's using self-control. He still gets upset, but he will walk out of the room or he may still burst verbally, but he stops himself before the words are hurtful. This isn't every time, but it is better.

Example: Before - our son accidentally knocks his own hand and shouts in surprise as much as in pain.
H) Really? Why do you have to ruin EVERY dinner. EVERY night it's SOMETHING with you. Can't you let me eat ONE MEAL in peace? ** Will sometimes declare he's lost his appetite and it's our son's fault.

Now - same scenario
H) Son, did that hurt?
S) Yeah, some.
H) I'm sorry it hurt. But, all that noise wasn't really necessary, was it?
S) No
H) Ok, well, let's eat dinner. Please don't shout like that again, ok?

He'll do well like this for a few weeks, then go back to shouting, then I talk with him again about how damaging that is to our son and to me (I have a strong need for family commitment), then he'll do well for a few weeks again.

You are right and my 'quote' was disrespectful.

I don't know how to implement the separation that Dr. Harley suggests is critical.

Legally in this state, I can't force hubby to move out. If I move out, with or without our son, I may forfeit my house (yes, the house is mine - there's a lot of his/hers in our marriage).

I've considered moving out anyway and can't afford the safe places and won't go to the unsafe ones with my son.

I didn't know how to segue from his asking me if I was cheating last night (Yes, asked calmly, was able to tell the truth and say - 'No') into that I do want a separation. I lost the opportunity when it was right there.

And, part of why I chickened out was that I knew it would be difficult to believe my honest 'No' if I then asked for the separation.

Update ~~ Stepson announced last night that he is moving out (at 25, that's a good thing).

I can't help but feel delighted! Because the young man is earning more than me and needs to be independent. Also because his being here was one of my main stumbling blocks regarding a separation as Dr. Harley recommends. It was just too awkward to ask Dad to leave with Stepson still in the home. And, I couldn't ask Stepson to move out any sooner, his Dad promised he'd ALWAYS have a home and that he'd never kick his son out. (For those with teenagers, DON'T MAKE THIS PROMISE!! If you have to promise this, it's likely that you will be tested. Just live it, show it through the way you treat your children that it's ok to YOU if they stick around longer than most).

Today, even though I don't have all my plans hashed out and I may still have to wait until the first of the month (time to make those plans, I suppose), I feel light. I feel energized.

At last, something is moving forward. This stagnation was making me feel that all was futility.

Part of my plan was to ask hubby to move into the room currently being used by stepson. That only works if the room is empty.

***** TMI alert to this question stop reading if you just don't want to know ******

I'm not trying to Plan A. Dr. Harley recommends separation with contact until love busters towards me and our young son can be stopped and the change sustained. So, TMI question - do I fill his need for sex if I'm in serious withdrawal? What about the rest of his needs (doing tasks around the house, honesty, nurturing him - almost like a mother-figure, appreciation)? I've been keeping all of these up regardless of how I feel.

OK, one last foolish question and I'll get busy with my planning.... He's been trying lately, but all of his trying looks like his needs being met instead of mine. I've let him know what my needs are and some basics on how to accomplish them. I'm so deep into withdrawal that I have to force myself to allow him to fill those needs, because he's asking what he can do for me.

Is this normal? Him putting forth effort, but rarely in anything resembling my needs and my wanting him to go away instead of giving him the chance to fill my needs when he DOES try?

This is all so confusing. But, I'm still excited! Because I still believe progress can now be made. One way or another!

You can write Dr Harley, but I went through a separation & might be able to help you.

1st: No such thing as an in house separation. You two have to live apart no if's ands or buts.

(I don't believe having had 2 divorces that any state will take your house in your name away from you if you have to leave - my last ex had to move out and since he owned it before marriage- the house was still awarded to him (and the kids and I had to move out)even though he hadn't lived there so I think you seriously need to speak to a lawyer before you make decisions)

You might need to file for divorce for protection and just not pursue it to make sure your things are secure.

Talk to us- we might be able to help you brainstorm ideas on how to get him to leave and/or how to have you move out.

As for your TMI: stop filling his needs. it will only make a woman go into severe depression and get an aversion.

At this point you are letting him know that you are WILLING to meet his needs if he will meet yours but its ok for that to not happen until say he hasn't had an Angry outburst in 3 months. It is really not going to work letting him fill your needs while your in withdraw and he is still lovebusting you so don't fret over not letting him. He is just filling a bucket full of holes anyhow it will actually be more painful if you let him start only to be lovebusted. So Stop. Be cordial- let him know you will be willing and leave it at that for now.

Dr. Harley wanted me to just talk on email first until he could stop his lovebusters there= moving up to phone calls and text. If he started with lovebusters again... it could go back to just email. You keep a daily worksheets to exchange showing what lovebusters he did and if there were some good conversation.
Now, he said its ok to not be honest while living together as it is not safe to do but while separated- this is the time to be radically honest about things he does that bothers you and what you really want.

If he can show you for a couple months that he can email and talk on the phone without lovebusters, then you go on dates where he gets to practice no lovebusters and if things go bad- you can leave.
(this is one reason why there is no way on earth to do this correctly living in the same house- it will not work, he will not change, you can't only have email access or NO access if he lives with you. Each and every time he get to talk to you or see you is a reward and you want to start making those rewards earned in a sense.)

You really need to immerse yourself in listening to the radio- reading his books etc. You have enabled him for so long that I can tell from reading that you still don't understand how all this works.

So talk to us and let us see if we can help you with ideas on how to make this plan b work.

I've been writing with Dr. Harley and listening to the radio casts. That doesn't mean I get what I'm supposed to be doing, so all help is deeply appreciated!

Thank you, Elaina7, for answering and for the clarity you bring.

You are right to call me on the enabling. I've been doing it so long, I don't even see it myself.

I'm going to re-read Dr. Harley's answers to me for inspiration.

Your advice is also wonderful - you've actually lived this advice through, even if it did have to end in divorce. Just as I suspect mine will also end in divorce.

So what is your plan for the separation?

File for a legal separation, have him served. Ask him to leave. If he refuses, have the Sheriff's deputy remove him from the property - I can legally do that after he is served.

The downside to this approach is two-fold. He has nowhere to go (both adult children are hesitant to allow him to be in their places - adult son just signed a lease in a too-small trailer) and having him removed from the property will likely put him in a headspace of divorce only - no reconciliation.

Further putting a damper on the whole plan is that the Social Security Administration is reviewing his case. If they decide that he is no longer disabled (though he is, and we may have to medically prove that to them), he loses his only source of income. If I also separate from him, he will literally have nothing.

With the pending SSA review, I may be able to talk to him. Get him to understand how important it is to him that our marriage work for both of us. Get him on board with the Marriage Builders concepts and life plans.

We just got that letter last night. I had to read it to him for him to get the importance of this. As usual, he couldn't tolerate my reading to him but for so long.

Now, I really feel like a horrible person if I leave him before this gets resolved. That really would be like kicking him when he's already down.

And, very selfishly, I need for him to have the SSA review go well. He is not capable of earning an income at this stage in his life. If I leave him like this, I pay alimony, get no child support and I don't even know how he'd live.

The sad, funny part about this is that I had planned to go home last night, explain that I am not happy still, what he could do to help with that (stop lovebusters, start filling MY needs instead of just what he feels like doing for me).

After reading the SSA information to him, he was grouchy, unkind, demanding. He apologized, but it kept up after the apology, so... yeah. A total crud-fest last night.

Update again:

I did end up telling hubby about Marriage Builders. He's found and watched nearly all videos on YouTube, and he says they're helping him understand some.

He also says he's trying to give one hour a day while I'm at work to reading articles or listening to the radio show on this site.

He has been trying harder to meet my specific needs for affection and conversation. I have been trying to meet his needs for companionship and appreciation.

He's only been aware of Marriage Builders a few days. He's only been trying to meet my needs in a direct, caring way for a few days. I can't just drop my SA and open up to SF for him. He says I'm being difficult and one-sided if I won't meet his SF needs.

Things bordered on ugly, there was name-calling (comparing me to the Queen of Sheba, sitting on the sofa doing nothing night-after-night, in his opinion). The whole conversation only began in bed after I'd told him how tired I was. And he asked when his SF would be met again. And I told him I couldn't make promises.

Three hours later and nothing resolved, but plenty of hurt feelings to go around, I did finally get to sleep. The only thing I did learn that was useful is that my tone of voice when trying to explain how I feel is a love buster to him. He doesn't even hear the words. Which may be why I haven't been heard in years. UGH.

OnTheFence,
I wonder, have you read this article yet?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html

If this seems to speak to you - and describe how you are feeling, would he be willing to read it?
Good luck.

OTF, I haven't read your entire thread, but it might be helpful for you both to follow the advice in this article. It is best to meet these needs in the context of a romantic date. Just meeting one need here and there misses the point. When all the intimate emotional needs are met in a romantic date, the environment is primed for his needs to met. Have you read this article? How many dates do you get a week?

The question of the ages: How can a...age?

By Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.


How are you doing this? Are you doing this on dates outside of the home?

To answer Allan - Yes, I have read that article. It does speak to me. I've told my husband about the article and that it explains things better than I can. I asked him to read it on Friday while I was at work. He went to the website, I think with that in mind, when his adult son saw what website he was on. The three hour conversation between them became about how horrible I am, how sad my husband is and how worried adult son is now that he's moving out (news to us, he's acted like we are pariah - or maybe that was being directed at just me).

To answer Melody - no dates yet. I've asked repeatedly. I've asked for his ideas of what a date could be. He wants to do this in the house, with the young son and dogs and TV to distract us. I've tried to explain that I *need* those dates to help me and they'd probably help him, too. Still nothing. He just complains about the distractions and says that blows off answering about outside the home dates. He is against hiring a babysitter AND asking his adult children to watch our son. Even though we watch our grandchild so his daughter and son-in-law can have dates and have promised to 'return the favor' for us.

This emotional pendulum is getting too much. He tries, I try. Still nothing is getting done in the way it needs to be getting done. He's frustrated. I'm frustrated. He vents, I go hiding inside myself.

I wonder if there is a stage past SA where there is absolute sexual rejection - physically as well as emotionally. Because my body is doing the rejecting that my mouth won't.

I've tried to explain to him, after hoping he'd read the article on SA, that he can't obligate me to sex because I'm his wife AND have a willing partner who is into it like he is. Both cannot be true at the same time.

I've tried explaining that dates are far more likely to bring me to a place of willingness than wifely obligation.

He wants the fact that he did his chores around the house to be enough to make me not just willing, but enthusiastic. Night after night. He's disappointed and frustrated -and very vocal about those truths - when this doesn't work. Stumped. Feeling stupid, because the answers are right in front of me but my blinders are on again.

Oh yuck, he needs to understand that this will do nothing to make you feel emotionally attached to him. Did you show him the article I posted about sexual fulfillment?

I would also read this and start planning accordingly: When to Call It Quits (Part 1)