.<p>[This message has been edited by Reztles (edited August 09, 2000).]

Oh, man, I must jump in on this one!<P>My husband says he is disgusted that I would stoop so low as to invade his privacy by getting into his stuff. Disgusted. That is the appropriate word, I guess. For both of us in this situation. Because I gave my life to a man who keeps illicit secrets from me.<P>He says that his sex with the other woman is none of my business, that's why he didn't tell me about it when I first discovered the affair. Funny, but if she had had an STD, or if he had gotten her pregnant, it would have been my business, now wouldn't it?<P>My husband is--well, his job is very sensitive, his job is at stake--and some strange stuff was showing up at his office while he was out on ship that his boss' wife told me about. So I e-mailed the OW and told her to QUIT!<P>She got all huffy with me and said "So, I see that you read your husband's mail. How sweet." (I never saw what was showing up at the office. If he gets trouble for adultery, it's out of my hands.)<P>I was really sick of their attitude about it. I said "Okay, who's worse for this? You for doing it, or me for finding out?"<P>It's a guilt thing, pure and simple. You don't want your misdeeds to be made public, because that's exactly what they are. Too bad if you are ashamed. You should be.<P>Incidently, I had NEVER snooped in my husband's things, ever. I trusted him. No, I didn't even trust him--the thought that I would ever have cause to MISTRUST him never crossed my mind. I was so perfectly secure in my trust of this man, the thought that he would ever cheat never entered my wildest imagination.<P>He is a little messy, however, his one endearing fault. And being a dutiful wife, uncomplaining, I pick up all the stuff he leaves around the house. Dirty socks, underwear, books, papers, workout gear, photographs of girlfriends, e-mails professing love to and from girlfriends, e-mails from other men applauding him about some girl in DC with big hooters ("she was hot, man, you lucky dog")<P> And credit card receipts. I mean, come on, he asked me to pay his bills why he was out on ship! Why in the world did he need to go to Motel 6 every weekend when he had a perfectly good hotel room to stay in? <P>Oh, did I tell you about the dirty towel I found...no, I won't even go there. It's too gross. Panties that weren't mine that ended up in the laundry? These, my daughter found while folding clothes. <P>Okay, but even when confronted with all of these clues, he flat out denied everything. Well. Okay, he denied having sex with her (kinda funny how he had condoms in his back pack--which was lying open on the livingroom floor with the condoms right on top--when he didn't need to use them with me.) The guy can lie like crazy, and THAT'S disgusting. Lies.<P>And still, like an idiot, I still trusted and believed his lies, gave him the benefit of the doubt. <P>One day, I decide to set up an office in the spare room for him because he had mentioned that he would like a private room from the rest of the family to work (gee, I wonder why) and being a loving wife, I purchase carpet, curtains, hang pictures of the kids, his military awards and plaques. It was going to be a surprise for him, for Father's day, when he got off ship.<P>This requires moving his computer from the living room to the office. Me, being completely computer illiterate, (used to be, before this happened)I take the thing apart and don't know how to get it back together. I call my neighbor, who helps me, and together we get it running. He says "Oh, oh, you didn't shut it down right. Let's check and see if everything is okay." Funny, the first thing we happen to open is the ICQ.<P>Okay, I read the first paragraph, and I say "Oh, this is snooping, this is bad." So I shut it off. But, after thinking and putting two and two together, and my gut feelings about all his explainations, I turned it back on. And I read more than a year's worth of chat. Most of it about erotic nights at Motel 6. Golly, that coinsidental, now aint it?<P>I am his wife. Don't you think that I deserve the respect that comes with honesty? He and I vowed to be together for life, to live in the same house, to pay the same bills, to mutually donate genetic material to produce off-spring that we are both responsible for. For years, we had a wonderful sexual relationship that seemed to be enjoyed by both of us--exclusively.<P>Now, all the sudden, his private life is his private life. His sex behavior is his own, and not for my knowledge. Oh, and the porn that he looks at, and the cybersex he engages in. Sorry, isn't that getting sexual fulfillment from someone other than his wife?<P>Alrighty, then.<P>I think that I am justified in "snooping." If he is justified in lying, then I am justified in snooping.<P>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited August 09, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited August 15, 2000).]

I HAVE to hop in here.<P>The key word is EMPOWERMENT.<P>We betrayeds finally have a handle on why our lives seem so out of control and distant. <P>We finally get proof that we aren't insane or paranoid. That is what turns someone like me into a snoop. <P>I NEVER thought for a minute he had anything to hide. I thought he was 1)in a midlife crisis and 2) grieving over the death of his mother.<P>Quick background -- we will have been in recovery for one year on Labor Day. His confession was August 21 1999. 14 mo affair with married co-worker, ended in April 1999 when he discovered she was having two affairs at once.<P>I never snooped, but one day in May '99, I traded cars with my h. so I could have his oil changed for him. When I got home, I thought, "h. has been traveling so much, it would be nice to really clean up his car for him". <P>So I washed, vacuumed, dusted, waxed, and found a condom wrapper on the floor. I thought "how gross, this must have come in on his shoe" and threw it out.<P>Next month, I am vacuuming our bedroom and I find an April receipt for condoms and his brand of contact solution on the floor by his bedside table. I HAD MY TUBES TIED YEARS BEFORE.<P>I called him on his cell in a business meeting and said "I have a riddle for you."<P>He said he could explain it all when he got home. I suggested he get home promptly.<P>He made up a story about being drunk that night and buying them on a whim. This is a man who has never had an impulsive, unplanned breath in his life. <P>THEN, I started snooping. <P>Phone calls to her that he made on MY cell phone (duh!), I checked some calls billed to my account from unknown numbers, and BINGO!, calls from the Red Roof Inn to an unknown cell phone. <P>In the middle of the night, I call the cell number and get a recording: "Hi! this is #####", in her best Southern belle voice.<P>It took him three more months before he would confess...even with all the evidence, he still lied and lied.<P>It only ended when he spied on her and found emails and cards in her office from the boss!<P>She was boinking her husband (rarely), my husband, and the boss...<P>so he came back to me with a lot of baggage and a very contrite heart.<P>That is how sweet little liz smith turned spy, then became his Pearl of Great Price, and now a happier, still married alias.<P>blessings,<BR>liz<P>p.s. yes, I cringe every time I pass a billboard for the Red Roof Inn. I wonder, will it always hurt? But the evidence was important for me to have -- or he NEVER would have told me, and we'd still be living a lie, or divorced.<p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited August 09, 2000).]

Sorry Reztles - please don't take this personally, but...<P>When I first discovered H's EA, both he and the OW were "shocked" at my spying to discover what was going on between them. Please believe that I did not even begin to spy until I had been suspicious and blatantly lied to for several months! <P>I see something very wrong with the notion that spying on your spouse to discover what they are up to, where they stand with regard to their marriage, is INVADING THEIR PRIVACY!!!<P>I have reason to believe I am still being lied to and that they have found ways to communicate without my knowledge, and you can bet I will keep finding new ways to spy on them because I believe I deserve to at the very least know the TRUTH about my H's relationship with another woman.<P>Again, Reztles - this is not directed at you - I'm just taking the opportunity you raised to do some venting - guess I'm overdue.<P>periwinkle

Reztles,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>but it seems to me that sneaking around is sneaking around no matter how it is justified it. It is on a different magnitude, I agree, but still the same principle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I must disagree. A spouse who has reason to be suspicious of infidelity has more right to the <B>truth</B> than the WS has to <B>privacy</B>. Snooping to discover truth that is being carefully and deliberately hidden is not morally equivalent to betraying your spouse. It is not just a difference in "magnitude" it is a different in kind.<P>That being said, it makes me feel like crap when I do it, but so far I can honestly say that I would rather know the truth (however painful) than be operating in a fog where things don't make sense. <P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

Reztles,<P>"There is an old saying, "Right is right and wrong is no one's right." Assault with bodily harm and murder are in two different categories but they are still both wrong."<P>I don't quite understand the analogy here but I have to agree,,both of your examples are wrong. However,,investigating murder and assault is NEVER wrong!!<P>"In my case, my W found out by looking at my computer (she was suspicious). But what about the spouses that are NOT in an A. I know most everyone at this site knows about the A but some do not. Is is right to be spying on innocent spouses? Isn't there a possibility that something totally innocent would be mistaken for something else? (I am absolutely certain it happens.)"<P>You know what? If my H ever had reason to suspect my actions, I'd have absolutely NO problem with him checking my computer, car, purse, wallet, dresser drawers or anywhere else he might feel was necessary. When I married him, I opened my heart and my life to him. I would hope that if he ever felt the pangs of feeling betrayed, he would talk to me. <P>

A big Amen to you, crazy. You said it best; investigation of a serious crime in never wrong. <P>I mean, if someone murdered your kid and buried his body in the woods, once it was found, would you want an investigation? Or would you say "Oh, that's okay, detective. It guess it's the sole business of whoever did this to my family. I wouldn't want to intrude on the criminal's privacy."<P>Privacy my as*. Bottom line.<P>Yeah, Liz:<P>Everytime I see the Motel 6 commercial "We'll Leave the Lights on For Ya'" I wonder how he felt standing there checking out the room key. Was he thinking "Oh YEAH, baby! Gonna get some tonight!" Or was he thinking: "Gosh, my wife is probably wondering where I am right now. . ."

One more thing about the betrayed's "Right" to snoop: <P>I maintain that I will ALWAYS have the right to know who else I am sleeping with! (i.e., who he has sex with, and who THEY have sex with.)<P>In my case, she exposed us both to whoever the boss sleeps with besides his wife...I've been checked out six months after his last time with her, but if I ever suspect again, I maintain that it is my RIGHT to keep myself safe.<P>My h. admitted to me that she 'swallows', so when she told me they were 'careful' I threw that in her face, "How careful is swallowing semen? God you are dumber than I thought".<P>so, my nickels worth is in the pot!<BR>liz

Wow. You all are pretty good with your snooping!!<P>I just wanted to chime in about a program that I used to catch my spouse. It is also a keystroke program which means it only records what the person actually types into the computer. It only cost $19.95 and it did a good job of recording my H. He had no idea the software was running. <A HREF="http://www.keykey.com/index1.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.keykey.com/index1.html</A> <P>BUT...<P>Like others have said it was EXTREMELY painful to find out what he had been doing. Up until then I had no idea, because he was conducting his affair on the office computer and telephones. But I happened to be away for a week and I KNEW he would use my computer since I wasn't here, and BINGO when I got back I found out about the OW and all the porno stuff. So, just be careful because the stuff I read broke my heart. He actually wrote a letter to her telling her how awful I am and he doesn't give a damn about me and that he loves her with all his heart. Talk about hard to swallow (sorry, couldn't resist)...<P>Good luck with your pursuits...I know I felt better knowing in many ways even though it was painful. At least he couldn't tell me I was "crazy" anymore or "paranoid" I had proof. Plus, I have printouts of the logs, and I sent copies off to my sister just in case.

Adamateve: (Wow, what a long name.)<P>I am curious--what happened after all? Did you guys ever recover? Did he really mean any of that stuff about you, or was he just telling her stuff she wanted to hear, stuff he "thought" he meant, being in that alleged "fog" and all?<P>My husband, in general, wished not to discuss me or the relationship with me, no matter how she baited him with nasty comments about me, or calling me names. She really wanted to know why he was fooling around with her. She kept saying "You love your wife, don't you?" or "I know that you're going to get back with her, I just know it." And he would say "I don't want to talk about her right now."<P>But when he made up his mind to get back with me, for whatever that meant:<P>I have an e-mail saying that the only reason that he was with me instead of her was because of the kids; he said that was the only factor--he had lost out bigtime, that he loved everything about her and was depressed about losing her. When I read that, I wanted to die!<P>But to my face, he says that he loves me, doesn't get along with me, but that I am the girl he loves most in the world. Hmmmmmm.<P>So, I am just curious. Like you, I wish that I had never read that stuff that I had gotten into, it broke my heart.<P>But I am praying that you will give me a happy end to your story.

I would like some help with a query thread. If there are any men who read this, would you please respond to my thread entitled "Question for the Men"

This is for computer recovery.<BR>1 there are programs available that can recover data even if it has been deleted fom the recycle bin.<BR>2 keyboard loggers. They run invisibly on the comp and depending on the complexity can not only tell you what they typed but what webites they visited or folders they opened. Also they can email the info in encrypted form to any email address. <BR>3 hex editors. For they more computer literate. If the mail email folders have not been compacted they info can be reinstated( thats how I found out that my W was sending XXX pictures to another guy) including pics.<BR>ALL of the programs can be found on the internet for free.

Well everyone, I obtained a copy of her mobile phone bill. I really hoped I'd find nothing and all of her recent lovey-dovey stuff would prove genuine. I read on this thread that be prepared for what you may find and how it will make you feel, you may not feel so triumphant. <P>I can honestly say this is the lowest and most used feeling I've ever felt in my life. The most likely OM is a past professor of mine that I idlized and have held up to friends, family and colleagues as all I aspire to be. HOW COULD THEY DO THIS TO ME!!!! I love her more than anything and I admired him so much.<P>Even as I spoke to her and asked who else had our cell phone number, I held hope that she might throw other possible origins for the 198 MINUTES OF PHONE CALLS in the span of half a month. Maybe one of her sisters, her brother or a colleague. She gave only four possibles: her parents(they wouldn't call her at 11:40pm and talk for almost a half hour), our former professors two children(dido for them)...and our past professor.<P>I still feel a little disbelief. How could it work out. HIS WIFE AND TWO KIDS ARE AT THE MUSIC FESTIVAL WITH HIM! It's a closed community, you can't leave the grounds without passing through a manned gate. <P>What about his wife. Does she know? Is she prepared to let this "girl" half her age take her husband and be a parent to HER children. It makes me wonder if my W was truthful that OM's wife is truely even there and not in their home country of Israel. How did I pick such a psyco wh**e that would break up a family, steal a W's H and lie to her H?!!!!!!!<P>During the course of the conversation she realized I had a copy of the phone bill and that she had just stepped into a situation that would be very difficult to talk her way out of, she quickly ended the phone call.<P>She needed to explain, for starters, why all 198 minutes OVER our 600 minutes are from someone calling her from out of our home region. It is very unlikely that her family or OM's children would call her at 11:30pm, 12:30pm and 12:40pm. It seems strangely like...ummmmm...after the time that most parents would put their young children to sleep. Also, if it was just music business, why SO late and such long calls? <P>What really burns me is that her family(pius Mormans) will find some way of forgiving her and explaining away her actions. MAYBE, even blame me(since I am not Morman)!!!! <P>Thanks for letting me vent. I really can't believe this is happening. <P>AC2<p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited August 11, 2000).]

Bernzini,<P>Hi Again!<P>Well, the more I hear of your story, it always sounds so familiar :-)<P>I can't say that my story has a happy ending yet, it's still unfolding.<P>My H claims that he said those things to the OW because he was really down on me, thought that I didn't love him and so he really meant it at the time. He claims now to realize that it was wrong to say that stuff, that he really does love me, but who knows, the man is a big fat liar. Sometimes I feel like I am the one being conned.<P>I still get the feeling he is talking to her. If not, he's hiding some big big secret because he just seems so distant and really like something is bugging him. His stomach is bothering him all the time now, like he's hiding something.<P>I wish I could say that it's all working out, but I'm still up in the air. Hopefully we will start counseling next week and sort this out. My counselor really has been stressing to me that I need to take care of myself more so I have to work on that. I also have to work on my inner critic.<P>You know, I can't even go back and read that email anymore, I can't read any of the stuff I have documented. It hurts so much to see it still, even though he tells me it doesn't mean anything, but the pain is still present, knowing what he said to her and what he MIGHT have said to her. I try not to think about it because I start obsessing.<P>Hang in there...

Adamateve:<P>I could be that he is going through that "withdrawal" thing. My husband called me up and told me that he had chest pains, shingles, and he is always tired. Inner turmoil for guilt?<P>I got the thing that "I didn't think you really loved me," too. It makes me feel bad, maybe I really did not show him. But then I get to thinking, "That's bull. What MORE could I have done. . ." Maybe I didn't express it in ways that he wanted.<P>I can't read any of that stuff, either. I remember, everytime I open up that ICQ stuff I could feel my heart just pounding in my chest. It was a sick feeling. The chaplain that I was going to for counseling said "If it hurts, why do you keep doing it to yourself."<P>I could only say "I want evidence somewhere that he DOES still love me."

Heck! Figuring out where you spouse spends his/her time online is as easy as downloading the net detective. Go to WinWhatWhere and download a 2 week version for free. You can set it up to record every single keystroke anybody makes on the computer. What files they access, login names and passwords for any e-mail accounts they have that you don't know about and membership names and passwords to risque sites. You can read their mail, view any profiles they have for themselves at singles sites and the like. You even have the opportunity to read the messages they send. Not in a sent folder than can be easily deleted but WinWhatWhere records every single key stroke so if they are making dates and want to deny it you have proof. It is password protected and invisible to the untrained eye. Heck, even to the trained eye. Just land it in a folder they would never open. Worked for me! No lying or denying, I know for sure...

I am real curious what exactly this will accomplish????? Do you really think........ any one gives up an addition If they weren't ready ??? You all talk about addiction.....and yet you monitor another person in your life .... like it would change there behavior... Did anyone out there give up smoking? Who made you do that???? Your partner ... I don't think sooooooo???? get IT??? by NotQuiteOverIt:<BR><B>Ok trustntruth I'll start it<P>Let me start out by saying… GET CALLER I.D.<P>Hide it if you need to, put it next to the jack on the floor. Hide another if you already have one and he/she erases the calls.<P>Reverse Lookup - <A HREF="http://www.anywho.com" TARGET=_blank>www.anywho.com</A> <P>You can see what address the call came from. If it is unlisted it will not come up, but if you put in the first few numbers you can find out a general area. For instance 555-555-55<P>New gadget - Intel camera, it is hooked to your computer. Can be used for making video phone calls (could be bad) BUT you can set it so that it will take pictures at intervals that you can choose, like 5 min, 10 min etc. May have several surveillance possibilities. It is a little expensive, but it came with my new computer. WARNING Try it out before you use it! I haven't had the need to try this. It may make some noise if you don't turn off the speakers.<P>OK these are pretty lame! Let's hear some good ones… <P>P.S. Any corrections are welcome! </B>[/QUOTE]<P>

The whole idea behind spying:<P>Like I said, if you feel justified in lying, I feel justified in spying.<P>Why string the person you "love" along in deceipt? If you feel that you don't love them, don't want to be with them, then leave until you decide who it is that you want. Don't keep them holding onto you with your lies. It hurts them, and in the end, it will hurt you.<P>If you have a cheater living with you who is sneaking around behind your back, bringing his affair home with him covertly, treating you like crap and you can't understand why, you have the right to know what is up. For your sake, for your childrens' sake. For the sake of your health (How did I know that my husband's girlfriend didn't have AIDS? I didn't!)<P>Sorry if you feel so defensive about it. Like I said before--maybe it's because you are ashamed of cheating and want to keep it a secret? To deny it to your spouse as well as yourself that what you are doing is WRONG?!<P>I am a firm believer that there should be no secrets in marriage. Husbands and wives should share their lives with each other in entirety. If you are doing something that you need to keep secret from your spouse, then you don't need to be married to them.<P>I stand by what I say.<P>

all good ideas...<P>just something to think about. Trust is a leap of faith...it does not start until you are willing to not check up.<P>Our counselor said if things are going to continue they will show up sooner or later without having to check up. You are leaving yourself vulnerable no matter what but if you have faith and the A is really over and the WS is really recommitted to the relationship you are giving your marriage a gift. <P>God bless you all!

Bump up for Danneill