snl,<P>Based on responses to my thread from a few days ago, I have decided to tell my W all (or most) of what I know. I will hold one thing bcak as it is my only lifeline to the truth.<BR>I wrote a letter listing all the things I know. Most she knows, some she doesn't. <P>I briefly explained that I initially kept most of this to myself with the hope that one day she may want to give our marriage a chance and that we would talk about OM when she was ready. Since that's not the case, there's no point keeping this to myself or avoiding the subject.<P>I ended the letter my asking "If you were me, what would you think?". I intend to give her this letter to read in front of me. I decided to write a letter so that I wouldn't omit anything or get sidetracked while talking. I'm sure she will continue to deny everything. The last time we talked about OM, she said she only talked to him a handful of times in the past 4 months. I know that's not true, so I may simply ask her to request itemized copies of her cell phone bills. If she has nothing to hide, this isn't much to ask. <P>Depending on how things go, I will probably ask her to break off contact with OM and recommit to starting our marriage over (which I have never asked). If she balks (which she will), I will again ask her to leave (which she won't). Nothing will be accomplished except that I will no longer "tip-toe" around the suject of the A and I will let her know where I stand. I'm trying to get a hold of a lawyer, but she hasn't called me back. I need to know if I have any legal options short of filing for D. I've got to be the man she fell in love with, and that man would not put up with this sh*t!<P>sad dad<BR> <P>

Your lawyer will tell you that you cannot force your wife to leave the house. What you need to impress on your wife is that she cannot have it both ways. That is, be in a marriage and carry on an affair. Unfortunately, you may need to file for divorce to show her that a continuation of her affair is not going to be accepted by you.

I have thought about what I would do if I were the bs, and had circumstances similar to yours, guess this is as good a place as any to list my thoughts, under circumstances similar to yours (ws in total denial etc.)<P>1. I would do any and all snooping to acquire the hard evidence first.<P>2. I would consult an attorney (maybe 2, and be absolutely certain what my options (and likely success) are. Including lawsuits applicable against op.<P>3. I would be sure to have and well document any evidence relative to #2.<P>4. I would also investigate the op throroughly, I would know everything there is to know from the day they were born. But particular attention to past relationship history, financial history, criminal history, and medical history.... I would also ascertain the nature of his marital circumstance, and some history on his wife, and of course whether she knows anything.<P>5. I would assess the op vulnerabilities, like getting fired from job, exposure to their families, friends, church/social, or other disruptions in their life they may not want to risk. And I would prepare a plan to utilize those vulnerabilities if necessary.<P>6. I would avail myself of counselling and other reality checks (as you have done) so I understand why the marriage has failed. Prepare a plan (to be discussed with ws) of recovery, including specific plans on how to carry it out (such as educating ws first, without making marital recovery a demand). Collect the various self-help books, on-line support, etc. and have ready for ws to use as resource, if you can get their attention. I would NOT have any relationship discussions with ws about us specifically. No Why's, no how comes, no how could you's, no I love and need you desperately's, no I can't survive if you leave's, no what are you doing to our children's.....NOTHING of this sort at all. The only thing I would ever say to a ws is... I realize now our marriage was not working for you, that is not your fault, it is mine too. I have been guilty of not paying enough attention to our marriage, and I want to correct that. No one is perfect, and certainly not me, I want to look at myself and change those things needing change. I want to do this cause I want to be a desireable marital partner. I know right now you think I am not, if you work with me, and we both reevaluate who we are, change the things we want to change, we may find we do want to be married to each other, and can have the desire and passion marriage should have. We don't have to do this, neither of us, both of us have to choose to take this time to do that, with no gaurantees. But what we will gain is a better appreciation of who we are, and a much greater chance we will be better marital partners for whoever we end up with. In the meantime we are being responsible parents, ethical people, and protecting the investment we have already made in each others lives, as well as conserving out emotional, and financial resources. I make no claim on you, you are free to leave if you want. I have realized also that I do love you, I will never hold this against you, I don't think you set out to hurt me, even though these things clearly do hurt people. I realize you are hurting too, and just trying to survive as best you can. Because I love you, I am in a difficult position here, I don't want to make you do anything, but I also don't want to stand by and let our marriage just die. I need to know you are not confused, or so angry at me, or that you are so influenced by the op, that you are not making good choices. To that end I do ask you to take some time and do a little self-introspection, contemplate what is happening, and that love is a murky business, and that maybe all is not as it seems, or has to be the way it is. I have done some homework for me, and you are welcome to it, all I ask is that you give us a little time. If your op really loves you they will wait, they will want you to be sure you leave your marriage rightly. If they pressure you otherwise, that should be of concern to you. As for me, I cannot just sit idly, I would not be worthy of you if I did not struggle to make sure you are safe. I consider the op a threat, not only to our marriage, but to your well-being. I have tried to show you through actions the past few months the truth of my words, you have either noticed or not, but now I mustact, and you may be angry, I realize that, but I am doing it for you as best I can. I would hope you'd do it the same for me. If they will not leave you peacefully, or you cannot pull yourself away, I intend to try and stop the relationship any way I can, to get your attention. I realize I may fail, but there have nothing to lose, is the last thing I can do for you. It is not vindictive, or vengeful, I bear no ill-will to you or the op, but this is wrong, it is not how life should be lived. Maybe we should be divorce, but there is a right way and a wrong way to leave a marriage, and the wrong way is over the body of your spouse. If you work with me for a while, so I can feel respected, and confident you are sure of what you want (and that it is not me you want), I will let you go without anger, and with good wishes for wherever your life takes you.<P>Or something to that effect.<P>7. Havimg completed all the above WHILE executing a good plan A for the time I felt appropriate, and having the talk just mentioned, I would then act, carrying out whichever continguency plan was indicated by the ws response. I would act swiftly, decisively, and with the mindset the marriage is over, this either works or it doesn't, but emotionally I am outta here.<P>8. My very first goal (if I get ws attention, and any kind of coopertation), would be to insist they read the SAA, and After the Affair books. The ws NEEDS a reality check, we all think we are unique, this is the world's great love, and our life is over if we don't pursue it at all costs. That may be true, but it so unlikely as to not be worth worrying about. Any love with op, that cannot survive a ethical goodfaith interaction with your current spouse is not love at all, it is a dependentcy. That is the first thing a ws has to understand, if they don't, use any means possible to at least get the info force fed to them.<P>9. The next goal is to get the ws to acknowledge the possibility they really are confused, and that at least in theory it is possible they are making bad choices. This opens up the path to a dialog about what is love, what is marriage, the whole thing about LB, EN, POJA etc. etc. and opens the door to an agreement to "try" for a while to implement these things, and see what happens. NOTICE there is absolutely no discussion of how wrong the ws was, or how neglected the bs was too, blah blah blah, the goal is to enlighten the bs of another choice besides the "old" marriage (just gussied up, but still the same), or the op...that a third choice exists, that YOU the bs, could become the op (only better), you want to get the ws to think differently about the marriage. Then you can try to work on all the other stuff. NO GUILT, no woe is me, no looking for remorse, or concern for your terrible hurt. You DO NOT have time for wallowing in self-pity. I can't say this enough, your ws does not care about your pain, they care yes, that you are hurting...but they really don't care at a primal level, this is survival, psychological/emotional survival. What you want, is for the ws to realize the bs no longer exists, a new person is there, and this new person is pursuing the ws just like people pursue each other all the time. If you recover, fall in love, "remarry" the ws will be sorry later, and will express it then, you don't have time for this now.<P>10. At this point you are still plan a'ing, but differently, with boundaries, and going to plan b if you must. But you should insist and do everything in your power to disrupt the A, and/or require the ws to comply with extraordinary precautions. If that fails, you can only do a plan B, and get on with your life. The ws is still watching, and if you make it clear you are moving on with confidence and the new you, with or without them (implying you are willing to consider the attentions of other suitors), that will pull them in, if not, you are that much further along in your life. Sitting around pining away for your ws is not very attractive, and does little to sway us your way, more likely pushes us further away. You may possibly reel your ws in with guilt, but I suspect that rarely works long term. You want them to freely choose you.<P>I think writing a letter is the best way to do this stuff. And if possible getting her to read it in your presence. Make it clear she does not have to say anything, give her a couple days to make up her mind, do not tell her specifically what your plans are, just that they depend on what choice she makes. To work with you, or to continue the A. When she denies the A, tell her call it whatever you want, you are reacting to the behaviour, people can often define behaviour differently, it is not the label that counts, it is the effect of her behaviour on the marriage that you are reacting too. Tell her if she wishes to call it something else, you have no objection, ask her what label she prefers (if she has 1/2 a brain, she will realize how silly this is, without you saying another word of criticism). Tell her whatever she decides to do you have only one request, that she be completely honest about the facts and her feelings at all time. That if she loves the om, and not you, that is ok, you just want to know. <P>At this point the ball is in her court, your plans are laid, no more agonizing, just actions, leading to a resolution. No more limbo. and let me say again and again and again...NO ANGER NO ANGER NO ANGER..... no fists through doors, no angry outbursts, no disrespectful judgements.....just calm, considered, and caring actions (on your part at least).<P>sad...Based on responses to my thread from a few days ago, I have decided to tell my W all (or most) of what I know. I will hold one thing bcak as it is my only lifeline to the truth.<P>snl...Someday you must tell me this lifeline, the suspense is driving me nuts.<P>sad...I briefly explained that I initially kept most of this to myself with the hope that one day she may want to give our marriage a chance and that we would talk about OM when she was ready. Since that's not the case, there's no point keeping this to myself or avoiding the subject.<P>snl...sounds ok, is about you.<P>sad...I ended the letter my asking "If you were me, what would you think?". <P>snl...ok, might add, and what would you do?<P>snl...I'm sure she will continue to deny everything. <P>sad...Absolutely, I would and did. Getting her admission is not the goal, getting her cooperation (or acting on you plans if you don't, is.<P>sad...The last time we talked about OM, she said she only talked to him a handful of times in the past 4 months. I know that's not true, so I may simply ask her to request itemized copies of her cell phone bills. If she has nothing to hide, this isn't much to ask.<P>snl...This is tricky, I am not sure a good idea. You have already decided their is an A, so trapping her in a semantic trap is confrontational to no purpose. You know she is a liar, she knows she is a liar, she knows you know she isa liar....so why dwell on proving it? If she makes a huge deal out of this is all in your imagination, then ask her for suggestions on ways to reassure you...one of which would be .....voila!!! cell phone bills. Do you see the subtle difference? Of course she will say just trust me, don't you trust me....blah blah blah....your answer must be...Not I want too, or yeah I do I just can't help myself.....but the truth.... NO, I don't trust you, not even a little bit. She says ok then, the marriage is over (a common ws technique)....you say, that is your decision, it is not over for me, I want to do what I said in the letter, but I have no control over what you will do, plz tell me in (the time frame you mentioned). If she says ok, then we get divorced.... you say that is up to you...knowing you are ready and will serve her first, if that is the best legal strategy...and so forth. The ws try to manipulate the bs.....much as the bs uses guilt, the ws uses abandoning you...best response for either party is to not engage in such battles.<P>sad...Depending on how things go, I will probably ask her to break off contact with OM and recommit to starting our marriage over (which I have never asked). <P>snl...Do not ask for committment, or starting marriage over, just ask for her undivided attention, and offer a reward (freedom) if she gives it.<P>sad...If she balks (which she will), I will again ask her to leave (which she won't). Nothing will be accomplished except that I will no longer "tip-toe" around the suject of the A and I will let her know where I stand. <P>snl...Yes something has changed, you will go to war against om, and tolerate no more sneaking around by w. Confrontation, done firmly and caringly, not angrily.<P>sad...I'm trying to get a hold of a lawyer, but she hasn't called me back. I need to know if I have any legal options short of filing for D. I've got to be the man she fell in love with, and that man would not put up with this sh*t!<P>snl..Now you are talking. Being pursued and fought for is a powerful attractor, but the bs must do it fairly. If they do it as the ws is their property and they will get em back, be prepared for defeat....but if it is according to the rules of true gender pursuit, and you showcase the new improved you....well, anything is possible. Good Luck. <P>

max,<P>That's the direction I'm leaning. I can't do it until I'm sure I'm doing it for me and not as an attempt to "slap her with a dose of reality". But I'm close, very close.<P>sad dad

snl,<P>You gave me alot to contemplate. I'll have to take some time to digest it all. As for my lifeline, it's access to her voice mail from work. I don't check it everyday, but somedays I'll check it early in the evening, if there's no messages, I'll check it later on at night. If there is a message, it's from him. Occasionally I'll listen to the messages, but I have to erase them otherwise they will show up as "old". I've done this about 6 or 8 times over 5 months. She may have caught on to it, but I don't think so.<P>sad dad

SNL,<P>As usual, I find your threads very informative and read-worthy. I wish I could have done half of the thing on that list.<P>GC

snl,<P>I gave my W the letter. She didn't have much of a response. I asked what she would think if she was me. She said she would think something was going on, but denied anything was, which you and I both knew she would. I asked her what she would do if she were me and she said she didn't know.<P>She said she doesn't talk to him anymore. I asked if there was a way she could reassure me. I suggested getting copies of her cell phone bill. She said she would contact Verizon and have itemized calls put back on her bill. I said that will only show me that you aren't talking to him from now on. She didn't say anything, but I made my point. If she had nothing to hide she would get those copies.<P>I asked her what her definition of an affair was. She said a sexual relationship. I said there are also EA's, relationships where innermost feelings and thoughts are shared with another person, where feelings for the OP are shared. I used the example that if a couple is together for awhile but aren't having sex, it doesn't make their feelings for each other any less strong. <P>I told her that I believe she has feelings for him and that as long as they are in contact with each other that won't change and we won't have a chance. She said we don't have a chance. I said then do what you need to do. That was the end of the discussion.<P>I was thinking of calling OM and leaving a message. Something like:<P>"Despite my W's denials, I know you are still in contact with her. If you know enough about a person, the internet is a wealth of information, such as cell phone records. Your involvement with her is a threat to my marriage and if it continues it will affect our daughter for the rest of her life. I don't know you, but if you're a decent man you will stop all contact before that happens. I'm sure if the situation were reversed you would want me to stop all contact with Kathy (his stbxW or exW)." <P>I don't have his cell phone records, but he doesn't know that. I could get them if I knew his DOB or SS#. Also, I just mentioned his W's name to let him know I know it. I know this message won't stop anything, but it may make him a little paranoid. I'm sure he will tell my W and it will piss her off, but it may apply a little pressure and upset their comfort level. What do you think?<P>I know I LB'd a few times, but I never got angry.<P>sad dad<P>

Well next move is hers, would that be reading some of the literature about affairs? Followed not to long after by some counelling, and a recovery plan to be tried.<P>I would not send anything such as you described to the om. I want you to consider the following...<P>I am the om. I contemplated what I would do if I recieved such a request from her H, or a threat of any kind. It was a difficult consideration. I am not a bad person, and would be affected by the implied pathos of such a request. However, I decided I would not honor any requests from anyone but the ow. Ultimately we are all sovereign individuals, we are not property, and her H (or my w) has no right to demand anything of us, much less someone else. Neither do you. You have no status to tell him not to pursue your wife. She has freewill, it is her responsibility to assess whether her actions negatively impact anyone else such that she should stop. No one can make that decision for her. <P>Were I to honor such a request, I have essentially told the ow she is not an adult, her life is not her own, I know best for her. That is quite often exactly what the ws was trying to escape from in the marriage to begin with. BS think that somehow because they have a piece of paper that freewill has been abridged, the piece of paper means nothing (as in cannot gaurantee feelings). We all have the right to pursue anyone we want, we have the right, cause we can. There may be consequences, in Biblical times possibly death, even now an enraged spouse may murder a ws or lover, and not be prosecuted.... and of course a whole host of other consequences. This reality is the undoing of most ethical ws, love is strong, and will carry the relationship a certain distance, finally reality sets in, and the ws will generally end it themselves, and recover, or divorce their spouses. This is a sad outcome for love, but is the price the ws pays for not playing by the "rules". <P>All this to say that ws are predisposed to feel sorry for the other bs, but if not sent away by their lover, they are unlikely to comply. OTOH such a communication does up the guilt factor on the op, who may then come that much quicker to the inevitable conclusion the A must end, and marital issues fairly resolved before any future is possible. Anything threatening is a challenge, and can work, or backfire. Had I recieved a threat from the H, I would said comeon a******, you know where to find me (you do not own your wife), cause would have verified I was rescuing ow from a control freak. But some om are wimps and may be scared off, which should be a big LB from om to w. But is risky, cause love is strong and crazy, and you really don't want to start a war with om. Is much better for op to decide for themselves to stop.<P>My suggestion would be (if you must)... Mr om. You do not know me, I am w H. I have become aware of an inappropriate friendship you have developed with my wife. This is causing much distress to her family and childen. I don't believe you meant any harm, but as you can appreciate, such relationships quickly become very harmful. You may not be aware I love my wife, and seek to resolve our differences. This is difficult to do when she is spending time and emotional resources with you. I have asked her, and now you to please respect our marriage and cease contact with each other. If you do care about my wife I am sure you will appreciate that leaveing her free to focus on her marriage is the best thing for her, until she resolves her marriage one way or another.<P>You can add if you want a line expressing willingness to talk to him if he wants to call. The thing is you don't know what your wife may have told him, so you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but for sure she has told him she does not love you, and that the marriage was a mistake. My ow H clearly neglected and emotionally abused her for 20 years, but as has been pointed out to me, I have no knowledge except what ow has told me. I have no reason to think she was misrepresenting, she said she did not love her H, but cared about him as a human being and so forth, and would not have married him if she could do it over, but that she was stuck now, and could see no honorable way to leave. We had hundreds of conversations which revealed the pattern of both of our marriages pretty completely...and I believe her (and I told the truth about mine as well).....still one never knows. Such a non-threatening message may precipitate a resolution between w and om to stop, or it may be ignored (not necessarily maliciously, just cause they find it hard to stop, even with good intentions to do so). If this fails, and circumstances warrant, go to hardball, but be prepared to carry out any threats you make, else don't make-em. Oft times public exposure is important, (becuase of job, or social issues), but only if the om isn't really sincere. If they truly love each other, exposing the A may just throw them together. The only thing I advocate for sure is informing the op spouse (if applicable), everything else is problematic.<P>This is essentially what happened to me. When w discovered the A, the ow and I only "talked" pretty much (we lived 2000 miles apart), and we maintained friendship (it was important to us), but it increasingly distressed the ow that my w was unhappy with our talking. My feeling was doggone it, I am an adult, should be able to talk to whoever I want, and so forth, but of course it is more complicated than that, and came to the inevitable conclusion we couldn't stay "friends" or whatever it is we were, it just couldn't work with the guilt and distress others experienced (so I guess we ws are property afterall). The ow was lobbying as much for me to give my w a chance as my w was. She never influenced me in the slightest to leave. So the point is the ws do have feelings of guilt and such, but have to decide themselves to stop. Asking can't hurt, just don't make it a threat, or beg.<P>Your letter seems like a veiled threat, that is my concern. But don't expect any letter to do much, still can't hurt to set the record straight re who you are. The thing is, your wife has to decide (even if pushed) to cooperate in a reconcilliation effort. Your options are limited, as discussed in other posts.<P>sad....I told her that I believe she has feelings for him and that as long as they are in contact with each other that won't change and we won't have a chance. She said we don't have a chance. I said then do what you need to do. That was the end of the discussion.<P>snl..I wouldn't have said that, it is a challenge. I would write a follow-up, tell her you didn't mean that, that her response just triggered a defensive action. That in fact you do think you have a chance, and ask her to trust your lead a little, what does he have to lose. Promise not to tell her how to feel or think, just ask her to look at some of the info you have found, and to look at your behaviour and any changes she might have noticed. You want to keep her thinking if not positive, at least neutral, not validate her negative feelings. good luck.<P>

snl,<P>After reading your reply, I'm not sure about contacting OM. If I do, nothing I say will change what he's going to do, but he'll know that I'm aware he's still contacting her and that's really what I want both of them to know. I'll mention it to Steve Harley when I talk to him tomorrow.<P>If nothing else was accomplished yesterday, at least the suject of the affair (innappropriate relationship, friendship, etc. ...whatever you want to call it) no longer needs to be tip-toed around by me just because she won't admit it. I won't have to hide a my copy of SAA anymore.<P>I will being calling two lawyers today to set up appointments for next week. I've got to start getting my ducks in a row as far as that stuff goes. I may have D papers drawn up just so they're ready if/when I make that decision. It's time to start going on with my life, with or without her. Not giving up, just moving on.<P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 06, 2001).]

sad dad,<BR>I should go back and re-read some of your other posts.... but I'm lazy.... I know you had a pretty thorough thread recently about it... <P>tell us again why you can't do a Plan B. That would be your next step, and might be what your W needs. Instead of filing... <P>I sure know what you mean about the love bank draining... boy I'm getting there. But I just don't want to be the one to file the papers. It's not going to solve anything. I can get on with my life in every aspect besides another relationship, which I won't be ready for anyway for a while. So I figure what's the rush.... the pain and sadness will be there, whether we are in Plan A, Plan B, or divorced. And at least in Plan A and Plan B, there is efforts on my part to stay married.<P>Just rambling I guess... ya know? I'm in limbo-land too...

Sad Dad,<P>I wanted to let you know of my phone experience with OM.<P>After I found out about the OM, I got his cell phone and work number from phone records. A few weeks after I found out about the EA, I called OM at work. I told him that I know my W has been talking to him and asked him to back off so that my W and I could get things right. I told him that we have two children. I spoke to him for 20 minutes.<P> He was very apologetic. He said he understands. He said he was divorced before and was going to back off. It was a great talk. At the end, I told him that I did not want him to tell my wife about the conversation that we had. He agreed.<P>The next day when we were about to go to sleep, she told me that the OM told her about the conversation we had the next day. It did not surprise me, but my W was not happy. I told her what we talked about, but it did not do any good. <P><BR>I called him two weeks later. Told OM the same thing, this time with a little more energy in the way I spoke with him. This time he was defensive. He said he just listens to her because "HE FEELS" she needs someone to talk to. I lost it.<BR>I told him that she is MY wife. He can talk to anyone he wants, but not her. I asked him to back off and politely tell her to talk to someone else like her husband. He got silent and said "So I can't talk to anyone anymore". He acted like he was 5 years old. I told him again - talk to anyone you want to, but not my wife and hung up on him.<P>Did it do any good? No.<P>Dino<P>

Faith1,<P>We are still living together. I will not leave because of possible custody ramifications. She won't leave for whatever reason, probably the same. Therefore plan B is not an option. I've got to get on with my life. With separation and plan B not being options, I don't see that I have many other options.<P>dino,<P>I know calling OM won't change anything. I juse want to try to shake up the comfort level between my them. I plan A'd so well that I think I made it easy for them to continue contact. I know OM is worried I will contact his W (possibly his exW now). I also know he was worried that I had someone sitting outside of his house about a month ago. His paranoia might be something to play on. I'd need to find out if he's divorced yet and try to track down his W.<P>On another note, my W called me this morning to tell me that our daughter brought one of her "blankies" to daycare with her and to remember to bring it home. She said it's not her favorite one, so it's no big deal if I forget. Hardly seemed like a reason to call. <P>sad dad<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited September 06, 2001).]

Sad Dad,<P>Do what you think is right. I am not saying not to call OM. I did. Do I regret it? No. He now knows that I know what's going on. <P>After my situation is all said and done, good or bad, I can honestly say to myself that I have tried everything possible to reach out for my W. I did not leave one stone unturned. I have done everything. <P>One thing that I agree on that you wrote is that maybe we plan A'd too well. I think I did. It gave them freedom to do what they want for months. I know that's part of the plan to give them (WS) space, but it gives them time to advance in their relationship. Maybe I'm wrong.<P>Sad dad - if you want, e-mail me at zip090909@hotmail.com<P>Dino

Dino,<P>I'm not sure what I'm going to do. My W sounds adamant that we have no chance, but won't take any actions towards D. Typical WS behavior. Regardless, I've got to start moving on with my life with or without my W. Filing for D isn't what I want, but I can't think of another way to move. I have an appointment with Steve Harley this afternoon. Maybe he'll have some suggestions.<P>sad dad<BR>

Hi SD- I just wanted to say hi and encourage you! I do believe that plan A can work in some cases but if the WS refuses to admit and end the A after a reasonable amount of time in Plan A then you must take action to make them see they have to be accountable for the choices they are making because if affects YOUR health, YOUR emotional wellbeing, YOUR children, YOUR future, etc. !!! The WS can not live their life as if they are on some desert island with their lover indefinitely!!!! Let us know how your session goes with Steve. I think SNL certainly gave you alot to think about too. In my situation I made some good progress last night at therapy with my H. <BR>I really delved into the emotional nitty gritty of what he and OW talked about.I told him that I can forgive him but I need to know what they talked about that they kept me from knowing. I asked my H if he told OW that he wasnt in love with me anymore. He said yes. OUCH! The EA part of their relationship is more painful to me than the PA part. I told my H that I needed him to tell me that His decision to have the A was HIS choice and it was a mistake. He DID tell me that when I asked him to- YAY!( before last night he would blame things in our marriage or how I had behaved before the A for his decision to have the A- I know those were a factor in it but it was still his free will to have an A) I feel better!!!!!Take care- keep posting! lifeismessy

lim,<P>Looks like you and your husband have turned a corner. Good for you! I hope it keeps getting better.<P>You are right. The EA is the tough part. I don't know if my W's A went PA (I'm not being naive, I just don't know it for a fact). I'll keep you updated. <P>sad dad