<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ms.O:
<strong>Just wanted to add to this discussion a link to a book that I've recently read and is about this very topic....<p>Moral Earthquakes & Secret Faults<p>I believe 100% in my heart that my H's addition to internet porn and his "secret faults" are what set of the "earthquake" of his affair, and ultimately the end of our marriage.<p>Aloha,
Ms.O</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Welcome Ms. O,
Hi and thank you for the Link as I will check it out. Feel free to get invovled with our discussions as we have some nice people here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Tom

Hi Tom and Estes,<p> I stayed up late replying to your post, but wasn't able to send them. <p> Thank you both for your concern. I am going to try and send this one.

Yeah! I made it back... It is good to be back. Isn't is funny how you can open up to people that you don't have to face? I would never be able to talk people about these things face to face...<p> Thank you both for your concern. You know I didn't realize how much resentment I had in me until I wrote it all down last night. Replying to your post<p> Estes, yes, I do have people to talk to, I guess, I just hate to burden people with my problems.<p>But I guess, you are right. It is abuse. I never thought of it like that. He really doesn't physically abuse me. He has gotten mad a few times and pushed me or something. I think, he might have actually hit me once. But I guess, there is a lot of emotional abuse. We had a chance to move back to KY. He was going to get a transfer with his company. I was reluctant to give up my job, but I thought at least, I would be back there with my family. Well, we had the house up for sale and it almost sold. The papers were almost completed. And out of the blue, he decides he really didn't want that transfer after all. So without even asking me, he tells them he will stay. They approached him and asked if he really wanted to go and he said "not really". I wish he would have talked it over with me before I quit my job. But of course my feelings or opinion don't count because he makes the bigger paycheck . Sorry here I go again...<p>
Anyway, it worked out for the best after all. I got my old job back with a big raise and not only that but I just got an even bigger promotion about a month ago. I was really fortunate...<p> I didn't realize it before, but it really helps just writting this down. Thank you for letting me as they say here on MB "letting me vent".<p>Estes, I hope your family is doing ok. I think of them often. And you are not at all asking personal questions. It makes me feel good to know someone cares. And Tom thank you so much for your prayers. I can't believe you both have been so kind after I told about you about what I was mixed up in.<p>I guess, it is only fair to add that "H" is not all bad. He really is a giving person. To me that is important. But it is too bad that I lost respect for him. <p>Miss O, That looks like a really interesting site you added. I am looking forward to checking it out.<p>I'm sure glad, I am still able to communicate with you all.

I often wonder where some people get the idea that they are so special or superior that they can treat others with disrespect as a matter of routine, much like your H, Spiro. I firmly believe that this is a form of emotional abuse. No one can be expected to tolerate treatment like that. But it does take strength to break away. I think that it will help in future relationships to understand what kept the abused spouse/person in the relationship beyond the time he/she should have left. Love? Financial security? Fear of being alone? The belief that they deserve that kind of treatment? The hope that an abusive person will change and reach his/her true potential? Determined commitment? It's all so complex!<p>Son, DIL, and grandson will spend the night here tomorrow night. S is driving them back to her state after GS's surgery in S's town. DIL is avoiding serious relationship talk, is stressed and anxious, and wants to be back "home." No real progress as DIL says that although S is doing everything right in his plan A, she doesn't know if she will feel anything for him again. Sigh.<p>Estes<p>[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>I often wonder where some people get the idea that they are so special or superior that they can treat others with disrespect as a matter of routine, much like your H, Spiro and your XGF, Tom. I firmly believe that this is a form of emotional abuse. No one can be expected to tolerate treatment like that. But it does take strength to break away. I think that it will help in future relationships to understand what kept the abused spouse/person in the relationship beyond the time he/she should have left. Love? Financial security? Fear of being alone? The belief that they deserve that kind of treatment? The hope that an abusive person will change and reach his/her true potential? Determined commitment? It's all so complex!<p>Son, DIL, and grandson will spend the night here tomorrow night. S is driving them back to her state after GS's surgery in S's town. DIL is avoiding serious relationship talk, is stressed and anxious, and wants to be back "home." No real progress as DIL says that although S is doing everything right in his plan A, she doesn't know if she will feel anything for him again. Sigh.<p>Estes</strong><hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] The xgf found that comment very unfair!

Sorry tmsgirl,<p>You are right. My statement was too generalizing. It was wrong to imply that you were abusive like Spiro's H. See edited post. My apology. Estes

Hi Estes,<p> I am really sorry for your son and his situation. You know, it won't be long and there is not going to be any such thing as a family.. I really do believe that. Pretty scary, isn't it?<p> Anyway, Estes I stayed in this marriage for many of the reasons that you listed above. <p> It is really a shame that a child has to be abused and will go with anything or anyone who will show them slightest bit of attention....And when that child has a chance to see what the real world is like, they realize they made a mistake in marrying the wrong person. Sometimes people stay in abusive relationships, because they don't know any better. They are taught when they are young that they are no body and are a burden to their parents. Children live what they learn....... They think the abuse is normal, because they know no different.<p>Enough of that!!! I guess, that is one reason why I don't think God is so against divorce as I grew up believeing. I always believed divorce is wrong, because God didn't like it. But later I realized that God doesn't like hate either. I think he would rather see people separate than to be miserable...<p> You know, I can't believe, I got this last job promotion ( I have no self confidence). But a part of me feels like God helped it along, I mean it was a miracle, there were too many people who were more quaified than me who appolied. Anyway, I can't hardly believe that God would help me, considering the mess I was in. I am very thankful, but still too ashamed to go to church and tell him so.<p>Here I go again. I don't mean to go on and on about my problems. <p>Estes I really had so much hope for your son. Maybe there is still hope. <p>I am having a hard time with my situation. But I deserve everything I get. He keeps calling and leaving messages on my voice mail, even though I have asked him not to. I don't have much of a choice but to answer the phone at work. He is trying really hard. I think, I should meet with him to talk. Maybe, then he will fully understand. On the other hand, mabe I shouldn't.<p>I have to tell you about a game we played at a baby shower we had at work yesterday. There were 10 pampers with numbers marked on the outside from 1-10. Inside the pampers were melted (microwave) candy bars. You know what that looked like! We had a piece of paper and had to guess what candy bar was in each pamper. I honestly, literally gagged. It was so gross, especially the one that had coconut in it. We were told we were allowed to smell it and taste it, but weren't allowed to eat it all. It was so funny!<p>Anyway, I better get some things done. I appreciate everyone of you very much.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>I often wonder where some people get the idea that they are so special or superior that they can treat others with disrespect as a matter of routine, much like your H, Spiro and your XGF, Tom. I firmly believe that this is a form of emotional abuse. No one can be expected to tolerate treatment like that. But it does take strength to break away. I think that it will help in future relationships to understand what kept the abused spouse/person in the relationship beyond the time he/she should have left. Love? Financial security? Fear of being alone? The belief that they deserve that kind of treatment? The hope that an abusive person will change and reach his/her true potential? Determined commitment? It's all so complex!<p>Son, DIL, and grandson will spend the night here tomorrow night. S is driving them back to her state after GS's surgery in S's town. DIL is avoiding serious relationship talk, is stressed and anxious, and wants to be back "home." No real progress as DIL says that although S is doing everything right in his plan A, she doesn't know if she will feel anything for him again. Sigh.<p>Estes</strong>[/QUOTE]<p>
Hello Estes & Spiro [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
It's always so good to see you guys and I look forward to seeing your posts, its like a breathe of fresh air. I just got in and thought I would answer your posts. I had a refreshing time having fun last night dancing a bit. Sometimes you just have to take the first step.<p>Dear Estes, I feel for your son and God I know what he is going through as I've been there! He probably feels so helpless, empty & confused. there is nothing we can do about the DIL as it sounds like she made up her mind so the focus should be on your S, especially with her moving. Let her go, maybe thats what she needs in order to get her thoughts and feelings straightened out. The most important thing that I think will help your S is your Love & Care for him that a Mother can give. I speak from experience as there's no better feeling then to know that the person Loves you endlessly & unconditionally, noone shows you that better, then your mom. Sometimes I cry as I 'm getting off the phone with my mom because I feel the Love in her voice when she tells me she loves me, I KNOW SHE DOES and there's no better feeling. It will do the same for your S and he will feel great, that feeling will give him strength and take some of the pain away that he is going through. In church tomorrow I will say a prayer for him and his situation.<p>I agree with you Estes about what you said in your first sentence and its disgusting because betrayal like emotional and verbal is a form of abuse that people take for granted. Alot of people think (you would be surprised) that its not abuse until it gets physical. Thats wrong!
I am guilty of name calling AFTER I get betrayed and marriage counselors go into this in depth as they state its a normal reaction when we get hurt, I also remember this from school, it has to do with our body's defense mechanism kicking in. But after the damage is done and you do something wrong it won't help the situation, as 2 wrongs dont make a right. I don't want to do this as it does drain the Love Bank as Dr. H speaks of because its a major Love Buster.
I'm proud of myself as the very last time this happened we got back together, she slept with this guy and came home to me that very same day and slept with me. I didn't call her names as I asked her to tell me the truth and she did and I thought that was going to be the beginning of that person changing. I always explained to her after I knew I could be with her forever that HONESTY & LOYALTY are the 2 most important qualities I need in the person that I plan to marry because I believe they are the foundation of a strong marriage/relationship. I was proud of her for being honest and felt good in a way even though I also felt hurt. I from then on watched her actions and spoke to someone where she works and she didn't change, she became more SNEAKY & CAREFUL. So then when she didn't come home from work (later in the week) after I prepared a nice dinner and was waiting for her, I left. I got upset with the little white lies, as with a player where there is little lies there are bigger ones you dont know about. I get so hurt that someone can just be with someonelse, then I get angry and tell them what they are, even though its a fact but 2 wrongs dont make a right. What I'm guilty of, is my REACTION to someones betrayal as I would never be disrespectful otherwise. It cracks me up how otherwise the relationship is great & what kills it is the lack of character and morals of the other person in the first place. Now lets look at a different scenario, what if the person is guilty of DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR, LIES & CHEATING and just denies it? I've seen these type of people just go from person to person because if they are not with you they will just go with someonelse (very shallow) and all you have to do is look at their past relationships to see this. Promiscuous behavior lacks character & morals. But ask them and they think they are an angel even when half the town will call them a SLEEZE. They say they have alot to offer, what an STD & Dishonesty, wow these people make me laugh. Then they tell you they want to study relationships so they can know how to make them last (in the future), well the answer to that statement is right in front of them, all they have to do is look in the mirror and they will see the problem.<p>Dr. Barbara DeAngelis has some Great advice pertaining to players; she states that "Some people never change, when they get caught in betrayal the next time instead of trying to make a change they just try harder not to get caught". In other words they become more clever and sneaky. There are many forms of betrayal as she states from Lies to cheating and I strongly believe it comes right down to a person's character and morals.
God Bless talk to you guys tonight!<p>Tom<p>[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]</p>

Hello,<p>Yea! We got an extra hour of sleep with changing daylight savings time. Actually, because GS was here overnight, I got less. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] He camped out (slept), in a big cardboard box rather than in bed. He had his pillow and everything inside. Really cute. It was a good visit, not strained between DIL and us or S, at least not obvious on the surface. I am thankful. S still intends to move to her new town in December.<p>{{{{Spiro}}}} Please listen to this. God loves you. Period. No doubt. You do not need to be in church to talk to God. Find a quiet place, and talk to Him. Tell Him that you need and want Him and the Holy Spirit to be active in your life. Tell Him that you are sorry for any wrongs you have done, knowingly or unknowingly. Then - accept, just accept -that you are forgiven. This is what God's grace is about. God loves us unconditionally in spite of what we have done. The beauty of God's grace is that you are ALREADY forgiven. You just need to open your heart and ask. If God forgives you, can't you forgive yourself.<p>Also, DO NOT SEE OM IN PERSON!!!!!!!! PLEEEEASE!!!<p>Tom, Thank you for the prayers. I believe that God heals us, maybe not in the ways we think are best (i.e. saving the marriage/relationship), but He does.<p>You are right about the unconditional love. One thing that DIL has always noted is our unconditional love for our children (S and D). Her mother's love is 100% conditional. She is always trying to keep her mother pacified and never does quite enough. I think that is part of DIL's problem. She has trouble accepting that she doesn't have to earn people's love. I wonder if your X (Hello, tmsgirl.) feels that she is not loveable unless she is showered with the attention of lots of people. Maybe she can't accept that the devotion of one person is enough for her to make her worthy and "loved." Therefore, the bar scene and multiple lovers who actually aren't sharing true love, just lust. People who pursue shallow relationship after shallow relationship can't be at peace with themselves.<p>Peace to all. Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Hello,<p>Yea! We got an extra hour of sleep with changing daylight savings time. Actually, because GS was here overnight, I got less. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] He camped out (slept), in a big cardboard box rather than in bed. He had his pillow and everything inside. Really cute. It was a good visit, not strained between DIL and us or S, at least not obvious on the surface. I am thankful. S still intends to move to her new town in December.<p>{{{{Spiro}}}} Please listen to this. God loves you. Period. No doubt. You do not need to be in church to talk to God. Find a quiet place, and talk to Him. Tell Him that you need and want Him and the Holy Spirit to be active in your life. Tell Him that you are sorry for any wrongs you have done, knowingly or unknowingly. Then - accept, just accept -that you are forgiven. This is what God's grace is about. God loves us unconditionally in spite of what we have done. The beauty of God's grace is that you are ALREADY forgiven. You just need to open your heart and ask. If God forgives you, can't you forgive yourself.<p>Also, DO NOT SEE OM IN PERSON!!!!!!!! PLEEEEASE!!!<p>Tom, Thank you for the prayers. I believe that God heals us, maybe not in the ways we think are best (i.e. saving the marriage/relationship), but He does.<p>You are right about the unconditional love. One thing that DIL has always noted is our unconditional love for our children (S and D). Her mother's love is 100% conditional. She is always trying to keep her mother pacified and never does quite enough. I think that is part of DIL's problem. She has trouble accepting that she doesn't have to earn people's love. I wonder if your X (Hello, tmsgirl.) feels that she is not loveable unless she is showered with the attention of lots of people. Maybe she can't accept that the devotion of one person is enough for her to make her worthy and "loved." Therefore, the bar scene and multiple lovers who actually aren't sharing true love, just lust. People who pursue shallow relationship after shallow relationship can't be at peace with themselves.<p>Peace to all. Estes</strong><hr></blockquote>Yea! We got an extra hour of sleep with changing daylight savings time. Actually, because GS was here overnight, I got less. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] He camped out (slept), in a big cardboard box rather than in bed. He had his pillow and everything inside. Really cute. It was a good visit, not strained between DIL and us or S, at least not obvious on the surface. I am thankful. S still intends to move to her new town in December.<p>{{{{Spiro}}}} Please listen to this. God loves you. Period. No doubt. You do not need to be in church to talk to God. Find a quiet place, and talk to Him. Tell Him that you need and want Him and the Holy Spirit to be active in your life. Tell Him that you are sorry for any wrongs you have done, knowingly or unknowingly. Then - accept, just accept -that you are forgiven. This is what God's grace is about. God loves us unconditionally in spite of what we have done. The beauty of God's grace is that you are ALREADY forgiven. You just need to open your heart and ask. If God forgives you, can't you forgive yourself.<p>Also, DO NOT SEE OM IN PERSON!!!!!!!! PLEEEEASE!!!<p>Tom, Thank you for the prayers. I believe that God heals us, maybe not in the ways we think are best (i.e. saving the marriage/relationship), but He does.<p>You are right about the unconditional love. One thing that DIL has always noted is our unconditional love for our children (S and D). Her mother's love is 100% conditional. She is always trying to keep her mother pacified and never does quite enough. I think that is part of DIL's problem. She has trouble accepting that she doesn't have to earn people's love. I wonder if your X (Hello, tmsgirl.) feels that she is not loveable unless she is showered with the attention of lots of people. Maybe she can't accept that the devotion of one person is enough for her to make her worthy and "loved." Therefore, the bar scene and multiple lovers who actually aren't sharing true love, just lust. People who pursue shallow relationship after shallow relationship can't be at peace with themselves.<p>Peace to all. Estes[/QB][/QUOTE]<p>Dear Estes,<p>Its sooooooooo good to hear from you! As usual your post is so accurate and true and you are right. <p> With your help your son will do fine and I know you will help him through this, as he probably doesnt realize it but he has access to a counselor right in front of him.<p>How was your night with everyone? Did they leave to go back?<p>I told the xgf the same things you posted and I hope one day she comes to her senses with this. Maybe hearing these things from other people will help! But her so called roomate who she lives with is a big player and gives her bad advice for his own benefit. When he was married my xgf would goto his house when his wife would goto work. How convenient? I know him and he his a big player, his life evolves around Lying, Deciet & multiple women and thats his business but thats why his wife threw him out and divorced him. I know my xgf and him play but they think they are smart and sneaky , her loss. estes she will eventually see what you just stated, but probably many years from now and she will really kick herself in the butt! People like him dont believe in love and thats why his wife divorced him! When he gives my exgf advice its to benefit him not her, hes very STREET smart! But down the road she will see. <p>estes, you are sooooo good as you won't believe this but she actually said EXACTLY what you posted! One of her last relationships of years with a guy who went to prison for 4 years for dealing cocaine, she told me she never loved him as it was just LUST! I can't believe you hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned lust. <p>Love Tom,<p>[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: Tomstocks ]</p>

I agree with you about the importance of morals and character. It has been my experience and observation that people who lie and cheat go through life using mainly "feelings" instead of intellect as their compass. These people have no belief system or philosophy which can give them guidance and self-discipline.As a result there is no structure to their lives only chaos. It is the intellectual ability to reason and make choices that distinguishes man from animal. A human being can behave like an animal but an animal cannot behave like a human being.<p>If you want to see a website that caters to people who behave like animals go to the following:<p>http://www.philanderers.on.ca/

Hi Max,
I've not read any of your previous post, but I can certainly tell you are a BS.. You know, not everyone who has an affair is an animal. By the way, why would you post a web site like that??? <p> I can understand your bitterness, but why take it out on us??

You are so right, max, about the intellectual ability to reason and make choices. Where did we
(the collective "we" here) ever develop the idea that just because we want something, we have the right to have it? Ever want that bright red sports car? Did you lie and scheme and take it?
I'll bet you didn't! Why? Because you really didn't want it - or because it was wrong?<p>We use our head and our value system to choose what is right rather than what we want. <p>Do people who behave morally and who do not choose self-indulgence do so because they have weaker desires than those who give in to their desires? I think not. Does it hurt to deny yourself? Sure it does. Been there; done that.<p>More importantly, I guess, is the question of how can we instill the ethic of doing what is right in our children. Is self-sacrifice hopelessly out-of-date?<p>A recent religious column in our paper stated that the main cause of the failure of marriages is selfishness, that selfish marriages usually fail while marriages in which the partners behaved unselfishly usually last. It's an interesting thought. Could it be that unselfish people are making the conscious moral choice to repress their desires for a greater good?<p>BTW, though [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , as an animal lover, I object to the negative reference to animals. <p>Estes

Hi Tom and Estes,<p> Good to hear from both of you.
Estes, I was so happy to hear that the visit with your son and DIL went so well.. I just knew it would.<p> As Tom said, you are so right! As always! You have so much widom. You are a blessing to all of us. I'm so glad your here.<p> Something you posted about your DIL also brougt to mind something I always felt and that is if your parents don't love you, you don't ever feel like anyone else could...<p> I see your faith and I wish so much that I hadn't gotten so far away from God. I know what you are saying is right, but I just feel so ashamed. Not long ago, I went to a local church to hear Sandi Patty sing, and the guilt was so bad that I couldn't hardly sit there. It was over whelming. And you know, I can't pretend that I didn't know what I was getting into.<p> I remember a guy talking about how he over came drug addiction with God's help. He said, nothing could ever make him stray away from God. He challenged God and said, "try me". Well the poor guy fell flat on his face. But he did get back on track, because now he is a preacher..<p> The funny thing is, when he was telling us about that, I felt the same way. I felt, I was so close to God that nothing could ever pull me away...<p> When I get this guy completely out of my life, I will be so looking forward to going back to church with a clear conscience.<p> Tom I am so glad that you are able to handle your relationship the way you are. I mean it's as if a light turned on and you saw things the way they really are. I can't wait to get to that stage. I wish, God would open my eyes and let me see things the way they really are. I think, I am still in denial or something, I don't know...I just wish, I wasn't in this situation.<p> Estes, you know all the horrors of childhood tend to leave scars, but I don't think that is an excuse to hurt others and to do wrong. An example is, a child is abused and then grows up and abuses his child and then blames it on his parents. I think that is a cop out. If a child is abused then they should know how it feels and not want to put anyone else through the same thing. In other words if a child did not have a perfect child hood that does not give him the excuse to be an abusive adult in any situation.<p>I don't know why I write these things to you. You probably already know that. I admire your wisdom. <p> And as always, I appreciate you both.....<p> The OP called last night. At first I hung up on him and then felt bad and talked to him when he called back. He wants to talk to me...I'm not sure how to handle this. It isn't fair to hurt him either, is it??? If I felt he just used me and didn't care then it would be easy.... Ester I am so so glad you never experienced this.. I wish, I had never crossed the line. You know I think, that is one reason God hates sin. He sees how we hurt our selves and not only that, but he sees how it separates us from him by not being able to even pray.....

A very perceptive and interesting comment, Spiro:<p>[[You know I think, that is one reason God hates sin. He sees how we hurt our selves and not only that, but he sees how it separates us from him by not being able to even pray..... ]]<p>I was taught long ago that sin was defined as anything that separates a person from God.<p>[[Something you posted about your DIL also brougt to mind something I always felt and that is if your parents don't love you, you don't ever feel like anyone else could...]]<p>I can hardy imagine anything as sad as the feeling that your parent does not cherish you. I realize how fortunate my sister and I were to have parents, grandparents, and other relatives that loved us unconditionally. In that secure environment, we were free to enjoy our childhood and deal with other concerns. <p>Even the perception of being unworthy of being loved by a parent is damaging. My D is adopted. After years of discontent and a degree of disfunction, she finally got counseling and realized that she had deep resentment for her birth-mother who my D subconsciously believed had abandoned her because she was unlovable. D went through several physically and verbally abusive relationships and was suicidal before becoming strong enough to change how she relates to people and to herself. <p>Are you close to your family?<p>I really hope you can forgive yourself. You obviously care about being a good person.<p>Estes

Spiro,<p>These are just my thoughts ... but it seems as though now is exactly the time when you need God. You need Him to put thoughts of the OM out of your mind. You need Him to help you pump love back into your marriage. God will help you do *anything* you want - if it's for the good of your H and your marriage. However, I doubt that God has much sympathy for the OM at this point. You made the absolute correct decision in hanging up that phone the first time, hon. That was God guiding you to do the right thing. <p>RE: "The OP called last night. At first I hung up on him and then felt bad and talked to him when he called back. He wants to talk to me...I'm not sure how to handle this. It isn't fair to hurt him either, is it???"<p>Fairness has nothing to do with it ... is it fair to your H that you spoke with OM? Either way you act, it's going to be "unfair" to one of the two parties, so you're in a Catch-22 situation. Please rethink your statement. Instead of asking yourself if it is a fair thing to hurt the OM, ask yourself if it is the right and necessary thing to do. Selflessness sometimes involves a lot of pain ...<p>belld

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by max:
<strong>I agree with you about the importance of morals and character. It has been my experience and observation that people who lie and cheat go through life using mainly "feelings" instead of intellect as their compass. These people have no belief system or philosophy which can give them guidance and self-discipline.As a result there is no structure to their lives only chaos. It is the intellectual ability to reason and make choices that distinguishes man from animal. A human being can behave like an animal but an animal cannot behave like a human being.<p>If you want to see a website that caters to people who behave like animals go to the following:<p>http://www.philanderers.on.ca/</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hello Max, <p>Welcome to our thread [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Excellent post & I feel you made an interesting and accurate point. Some people thrive on chaos as "Normal" people thrive on stability. Your right about some people just reacting emotionaly instead of using a cognitive rational approach. Its good to feel but one must also include logic when reasoning/problem solving to be successful. And yes, these people usually do have a weak beliefe system. Tom

Tom, max, et. al., a question:<p>How much do you think that an absence of boundaries or weak boundaries contribute to a person's chances of having an EMR? H always had/still has very weak boundaries when it comes to other people. Very much a "lemming" mentality. I used to joke with him a long time ago that he'd drink punch if Jim Jones offered it to him. <p>What do you think about the boundary issue? Could this be at play here, too?<p>belld

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by belldandy:
<strong>Spiro,<p>These are just my thoughts ... but it seems as though now is exactly the time when you need God. You need Him to put thoughts of the OM out of your mind. You need Him to help you pump love back into your marriage. God will help you do *anything* you want - if it's for the good of your H and your marriage. However, I doubt that God has much sympathy for the OM at this point. You made the absolute correct decision in hanging up that phone the first time, hon. That was God guiding you to do the right thing. <p>RE: "The OP called last night. At first I hung up on him and then felt bad and talked to him when he called back. He wants to talk to me...I'm not sure how to handle this. It isn't fair to hurt him either, is it???"<p>Fairness has nothing to do with it ... is it fair to your H that you spoke with OM? Either way you act, it's going to be "unfair" to one of the two parties, so you're in a Catch-22 situation. Please rethink your statement. Instead of asking yourself if it is a fair thing to hurt the OM, ask yourself if it is the right and necessary thing to do. Selflessness sometimes involves a lot of pain ...<p>belld</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Dear Miss Dandy,
Welcome to our thread...Because of my recent background, I don't venture too far away from here..<p> I loved your reference to furchildren. That was so cute. I just love animals..I have a year old Lhasa Apso (dog) and I just love her. She knows when I am expected home from work, she will be on the bed watching out the window. SHe is just like a baby. She is very much loved and she knows it. Her name is Brandi.<p> Anyway, I wanted to thank you for your advice. I want nothing to do with my marriage and I hope he leaves peacefully in Janurary as we both agreed. There is just too much bitterness and it is just too far gone... I couldn't even think of getting involved with someone else if it wasn't...<p> I guess my biggest problem is just trying to stay away from the other person. Gosh, it's hard... I was so stupid for getting involved...<p> I am trying.. <p>You know it's funny about what you wrote about me hanging up on him. You mentioned that God some how interviened. Well anyway, the power went off today in the building I work at and I couldn't help but wonder if he tried to call (usually does at that time) and kept getting a busy signal. I know he thinks I am trying to advoid him.... Oh well.<p> I noticed you said you and your H were still in the same houe. I just wonder if maybe God couldn't interviene and give you a forgiving heart and your H a heart that beats just for you?<p> Hope you come back.

Hello, belldandy,<p>By weak boundaries do you mean being easily swayed by other people? Not having very strong opinions or convictions? Or may be an example of a conflict avoider personality? <p>I can envision a situation in which a strong-willed, or manipulative person could put enough pressure on a weak-willed person or a conflict avoider to persuade him to do something that he knows is wrong. I can see that personality type as having a terrible time withdrawing from an OP.<p>However, this does not excuse that person from his responsibility in the situation. Counseling would probably be very helpful in helping this type of person understand himself better.<p>I will have to go back and catch up with your situation. I'll be back later.<p>Estes