I wish I had had a tape recorder. It's the only real way I'll believe what occurred today when tomorrow comes.<P>I can't do justice here to what I heard in a lengthy phone conversation, rather ah, er, in an "exchange" with my wife.<P>I had to call her because <son> told me (while at a school function Saturday afternoon) that she said that maybe he shouldn't play in his ball game later in the day. So I called to try to resolve whatever conflict existed. This was quickly resolved - he's the only catcher I had available.<P>But the conversation quickly turned into her venting at me, to me, about me - you name it.<P>She went on and on about how I've been trying to control and manipulate her thru "your stupid plan A and plan B." "Can't you see how ridiculous you look with your stupid little internet counselor? You have been WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!! You haven't changed a bit!! How did you let yourself get so involved with this crazy stuff? If you had spent half the time with your son as you spent on the internet trying to control me, he wouldn't be as screwed up as he is!!"<P>Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.<P>Her: DON"T PULL THAT PSYCHOLOGY BULLSH**T ON ME!!!! IT WON'T WORK!! I KNOW YOU GOT THAT FROM YOUR PHONY COUNSELOR!!! WHY DON"T YOU GET A REAL COUNSELOR???<P>Me: I understand that you're upset.<P>Her: DON'T PATRONIZE ME!!!!!!!!<P>That's just a sample. The whole thing lasted about 45 minutes during which she raised her two main points over and over and over again. Oh, and I can't forget, I'm a terrible person and a terrible father.<P>Point 1: I've said terrible things about her to <son>. She said I'll hear ALL about it when we meet with <son's> therapist next week. (We ARE meeting with his therapist at W's request. He's been in and out of therapy since his younger brother died 10 months before the start of her affair. I jumped at this offer and have already conferred with Steve about how I should conduct myself during the session.) She said I've been saying horrible things about her to <son> intentionally in an attempt to hurt her and to diminish her in his view. Which brings up...<P>Point 2: I intentionally tried to ruin her financially by running up the balance on our home equity line instead of getting her name off the mortgage in August 2000 like she requested. As a result, she can't get credit. She said her Dad had to take out a loan for her because she couldn't get one in her own name because of the vile way I schemed to keep her from getting credit.<P>Although I did it calmly, I made the silly mistake of trying to reason with her. I tried to explain that I don't know what <son> has said that I said about her, but it was not with the intent of trying to hurt her. Yes, I've tried to explain things to him when he asks, and yes, perhaps he interpreted some things in the wrong way.<P>Me: What has he said that I said?<P>Her: You'll hear about it on Tuesday. I will not discuss it unless in the presence of a counselor or a mediator.<P>Me: OK, perhaps he has read more into some things that I said. I can promise that I have never told him anything but the truth. Has he told you how often I have described my love for you? Has he remarked about how often I have said I want you to come back home to be with us so we can have a family again?<P>Her: Blah, blah, blah......... (Unintelligible blather).<P>Me: OK, perhaps he has misinterpreted things, but why would I want to harm you while I'm trying to reconcile with you?<P>Her: Because YOU HAVEN"T CHANGED!! THE COUNSELOR SAYS WE'VE TOTALLY SCREWED <son> UP!!!<P>Me: I understand your concern. <Son> is my top priority. The very best thing we can do for him is to rebuild our family. I am a flawed, imperfect creature and I know I have made some mistakes.....<P>Her: YOU HAVE TOTALLY SCREWED THIS UP!!!!!! At one point when you were depressed I thought we had a chance because you were being so nice but, THERE'S NO WAY NOW YOU WILL EVER GET ME TO COME BACK SINCE YOU STARTED BEING MEAN, SO GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE!!! Just be civil with me and be the father <son> needs.<P>This went on and on. I can only guess the point that I "started being mean" was when I went to Plan B. <P>All the major issues were hit: the dogs, the au pair ("SHE DOES NOTHING!!!"), the house ("IT'S FILTHY!!!"), and especially, the way I'm trying to control her:<P>Her: That silly Plan A/Plan B is nothing more than your attempt to exert control over me and manipulate me!!<P>Me: I have no intention of controlling you. What you may be feeling is your loss of control over me.<P>Her: YOU'RE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!! I read what you wrote - "If Plan A won't work, I'll just Plan B her." You've totally wasted you time!!!!! I will not fall for this crap!!<P>Me: I invite you to read more. I wish you would read everything I wrote with an open mind.<P>Her: THERE'S NO WAY I WILL LOWER MYSELF TO READ ANY MORE!!! Blah, blah, blah!!!!!!!! All I want is for us to cooperate, be civil, be fair, and be friends. AND, you need to do more to care for <son>. You need to buy him some clothes and just do a better job all around.<P>Me: OK, I will try harder. I will do everything to ensure <son> has a healthy home environment. This includes my open offer to rebuild our family. If you believe my counselor has led me down the wrong path, I'll offer to start over with a counselor of your choice. We can use <son's> therapist.<P>Her: She is working for <son>. If you so much as just mention any thing else on Tuesday, I'll walk out.<P>Several times she pleaded with me to cooperate and be civil. "I've bent over backwards for you. All you've done is be counter productive."<P>Me: Please believe that my sole intent all along has been to reconcile. I can accept that I haven't done a good job and maybe have made it worse.<P>Her: Then why have you been so mean to me? Why can't we be friends?<P>Me: I want to be more than friends. But, I cannot be friends with you as long as you continue your relationship with <OM>. That's what I said in my July letter. I cannot associate with you under the current conditions.<P>Her: See? You're trying to dictate who I associate with. YOU'RE TRYING TO CONTROL ME!!!<P>Me: No, I'm dictating who MY friends will be - not yours. I have no control over your friends and I don't want any.<P>Her: Can't you see how this is adversely affecting <son>? YOU'RE HURTING HIM BY NOT BEING FRIENDS WITH ME!!<P>I am very proud of the way I stayed calm during this terrorist attack. Ultimately, it got around to my favorite accusation of her's regarding why she left:<P>Her: I HAD to leave!! It was your decision NOT to leave. YOU MADE ME DO IT!!!!!<P>I know this post got long. I just needed to write some of this down for later. To me it demonstrates a lot of typical WS rantings: revisionist history, exaggeration of BS faults, and projection of blame. Don't get me wrong - I'd love to re-do a lot of things I did in Plan A because I committed too many LBs.<P>I did learn something from this exchange. She's right that I should have been more upfront while in Plan A to let her know how I was using the equity line. By not doing so, this gave her a reason to criticize me, regardless of whether it's valid or not. Also, I should have been more careful about what I said around <son> with regard to her. I answered his questions honestly and I recall using the term "affair" to describe her relationship with <OM>, a former family friend and pallbearer in our son's funeral. Maybe I was TOO honest. I am anxious to hear what he told her I said, but it may not matter. She will believe what she wants to believe and there's no sense trying to change her view.<P>So, how can you good people associate with such a vile creature as me? How did I let myself get led down this path of destruction on the MB forum? How can I go to sleep at night with all these evil deeds on my record?

God, you're evil! And you come here and blame her for minor things like hurting your poor son by having an affair and destroying your family when it is YOU doing the damage all along! Poor misunderstood woman! No longer will we be fooled by the niceguy act, WAT!

Dave,<P>What is going on with her? After reading this, to me it seems there is an underlying reason she is so agitated. Personally I think something else has happened and she is misdirecting her anger and spouting off at you. <P>Has something else happened that may have triggered her tirade?<P>Lv,<BR>Jo

ooooh, and BTW ....<P>You did really good. No LBs that I can see, how in the heck did you ever keep your composure?<P>Jo

WAT,<P>I just have to say WOW! I think you SHOUL be proud of yourself. You handled W's tirade with aplomb.<P>I hope you don't take this as a criticism; I am curious as to why, when you are in Plan B, you allowed the conversation to go on for 45 minutes, though! What that did, effectively, was to meet a need of hers, to rant at you....and in Plan B we aren't supposed to meet any of the WS's needs, good or bad.<P>The other thing that strikes me is that she is in full blown conflict stage, and I read somewhere here that this is a GOOD thing. In one of the articles, I believe.<P>You are taking the high road and you are doing an excellent job here! You are keeping your integrity, and your self esteem.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Hi Mel - yes, you better watch out who you associate with!!<P>Hi Jo - perhaps. I suspect she's reacting to <son's> counselor telling her we've totally screwed him up. Of course, if true, it'll be my fault. The other possibility - or in addition to - is potential financial pressure. Another thought is that I've avoided direct contact for quite a while, so maybe it's all just pent up rage directed at her favorite target. I can hear OM now supporting all her paranoid rants at me, egging her on.<P>Wow, the mind is an amazing organ, isn't it?<P>WAT

Jacky - you are absolutely correct about it being not Plan B'ish to let the conversation go on. I was trying to balance letting her rant with gathering some intelligence. Recently, she wrote me she is not comfortable in the same room with me - a tit for tat response to my Plan B. Steve advised me to mine these opportunities to ask, "What am I doing to make you uncomfortable? If I understand, I can change my behavior."<P>This opportunity came up in this conversation, but I didn't get a straight answer. I'm just "so controlling and manipulative so I (her) don't want to be around you."<P>WAT

WAT,<P>Makes you want to scream, doesn't it, this total illogic. Just shows how messed up you W is, I think. Total denial of reality. Total denial of responsibility. Total misunderstanding of Plan A/B. Congrats to you for keeping your cool. Obviously there is no reasoning with her. You know the answer, of course. Keep being the best you you can be. That's all you can do. Hope the counseling session goes will for you and son. Estes

Yes, the mind is amazing, and very very complicated.<P>Dave ... I read what Nina asked you ... uhh hem, you know the Plan B thingy. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Nina's right you know, Hon. You were meeting a need of W's by participating in "her" desire to have a 1:1 with you. And since you just mentioned that you have been avoiding any convo with her, she most certainly has been saving up. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Jo

Yes, Jo - you are correct, too. Most of the conversation was regarding our son. I tried to keep it on that track but probably not well enough. One of her major issues is communication about our son. She and her attorney have criticized me for limiting communication to matters about my son as going overboard - that I end up limiting needed communication about him in the process. So, I've been trying to avoid further criticism in this regard by letting conversations already started proceed if they mostly include son's stuff. If I cut them off, she'd just go run to her lawyer and i'd get another headache. It's like I can't win.<P>WAT

Your W's fantasy world is blowing apart and she sounds like she has lost control of her life. The only way to justify what is happenning to her is to blame you for it! You are the one at fault because her fantasy world isn't working out the way she planned it to be.<P>WAT....please stay in Plan B and try to stay firm with it. Your W is irrational. Don't put yourself in the position to having to listen to her ranting, raving and her bull crap. Don't let her weaken your spirit. Don't accept blame for her stupid reasoning or her stupid decisions.<P>You spoke to her and look at how you are feeling. If she falls.....let her fall on her own. If & when she is ready to reconcile....then, that is the time to communicate with her & take care of her. Protect yourself. Protect your son. That is what Plan B is for.<P>I know that you can do it. You can survive and get through this, no matter what happens.

WAT- I agree with what survivor just said. It's nice to hear how you are doing. It sounds like you are doing great. Without you meeting her needs she is dicovering that her fantasy is not all she imagined it to be. <P>Sounds like a beam of reality has hit through the fog, and she desperately wants to blame you for it so she can continue to feel good about what she is doing. <BR>Stick with what is working and stick to plan B! I think it's working!<P>Isn't it just AMAZING how fog logic works. I'm having an affair and destroying the family, but YOU have screwed up the child. Oh..... ok. LOL! That's almost comedy script material, but I don't think that those in the fog would get it.<P>Hang tough, you know you really are doing the best you can in a bad situation that you did not want to begin with.<P>NY

Hey ScaredInNY,<P>You cut thru the dukey and stated that right on the money ... thanks!<P>Jo

WAT,<BR>I have to agree with the others abut Plan B just stick to it! It seems that it is having some affect on her. Sounds as though she is still taking no responsibility for her role in any of this. You are so incredibly cool when you describe your conversations with your W Are you really that calm? Why is it that WS's just can't accept that what they are doing is morally wrong and so they try to berate us for seeking help for ouselves by coming to sites like MB I guess in their guiltless minds if we are looking for help then we have the problem not them. Good luck with your counseling appt. for son. Take care.<BR>C

Hi Dave,<P>Wow, sounds like she's losing it. Looks like the reality of what splitting up a family can do to a kid is finally hitting her between the eyes. Don't let her blame you, Dave. You did a great job projecting her thoughts back onto her by remaining so calm and collected. Keep up the good work!<P>Have you had previous dealings with your son's counselor? Any idea of what might be broached at the session on Tues? Do you have any feelings on how son's counselor views what has occured in the family in the last year? Keep calm, and she'll be the one who ends up looking like a controlling nutcase. Projection, it's just an amazing defense mechanism.

Wat, <P>You done good!! You stayed calm and collected. And you know. When someone is looking for a fight, that only gets them more upset.<P> It sounds like so many "conversatoins" I had with my ex-husband. It's amazing how distorted a person's thinking can become.<P>I think that people are right. She is missing having you fill her needs and she is loosing it.<P>What can you do at this point except Plan B.<P>Z

Hi Dave,<P>Sorry you are having such a rough time. This is progress (of sorts). You are now getting a reaction to your actions. <P>She is upset, not too unusual. We have seen this to varying degrees from other WSs. Where will this attitude of hers take her? Just watch. I don't believe she can run on this type of adrenaline for too much longer. <P>Her F is helping her out, ok. That's what parents are for. She expects you to help her out? Well, if you were her father that would be a good point, but since she has rejected you as her H, then really why should you enable her to continue to live in a life and lifestyle that you don't condone?<P>The only real mistake I saw was that you tried to reason with her. Maybe the hmmmm.... approach or the 'ok' response (with no further explanation) get more of a reaction in the right direction. Either that or it will confuse them. That is my tried and tested idea. <P>Of course, why should you believe anything I say? We have never met, I have no credentials and in a lower position than your 'phony internet counselor'. Yet, I have lived through and seen the pain and agony that you and your family has gone through. Even without a name, I can and have understood. <P>Here Dave is my take on part of your conversation:<P>"Her: See? You're trying to dictate who I associate with. YOU'RE TRYING TO CONTROL ME!!!<P>Me: No, I'm dictating who MY friends will be - not yours. I have no control over your friends and I don't want any."<P><BR>You may want to consider being more agreeable with her. Something like:<P>Dave: Hmmmm..... yes you are.<BR> (don't justify or clarify your comment)<BR> (see if she catches it and let her ask<BR> you).<P>If she doesn't ask you, don't volunteer anything. That may take a while but be patient.<P>If she does ask something like "what do you mean?" You could respond, yes you are controlling me. why? <P>You have now put the question originally thrown at you back at her. This may confuse her and that is where you need her to be. Sometimes being confused is a sign that logic is trying. <P>My take is that she is missing you and is angry that you are getting to her. The last thing she will do is admit that she misses you. Know this and watch. Reconciling in one's mind much less with others is difficult for many. "Pride goes before a crash" was not written without a just cause or causes. <P>Just be careful. I am quite proud of you for not LBing. Yes we sure are a crazy bunch but who better than to describe us like that than those who are in the fog?<P>Take Care,<BR>L.<p>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Wat,<BR>I can't really add much to what has already been said, just wanted to reiterate some of the things.<P>I also think that it's starting to come unraveled, and she's rattled over that. She had her little "life" all neatly tied in a package, and YOU are not cooperating! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <P>I agree with Jo, something else is going on. Whether it is a fear of what your son's counselor is going to uncover, or something more, I'm not sure, but something sure set her wheels into motion. Is OK, let it play out. It can only be good for YOU! You're the one who's on an even keel and in the right. Prolly she doesn't want your son to use the words, "My mom's having an affair." in front of the counselor. But of course, he WILL, since <B>YOU</B> told him that's what's going on. (<I> How dare you reveal the TRUTH to him??</I> [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <P>Stay the course, my friend. Your "pseudo" friends and your "pseudo" counselor here are with ya! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] We are all pulling for you, and praying, too! She sure has been a tough cookie through it all. But I think it's all about to come undone.<P>Lupo

I just wanted to add my support, WAT, I think you did great. Anxiety and intensity drive dysfunctional patterns, you did great reducing both while speaking w clarity and defining your position.<P> Dan

G'day, all. Yep, just as I expected, the light of a new day has me wondering if what took place yesterday was just Hollywood special effects. Minor update: <Son> caught the whole game last evening and probably has sore fingers this morning - I'm sure I'll hear about it from Dr. Mom. At least she watched the whole game for a change. I wonder what she sees when I'm nurturing these kids as their coach and they have so much obvious respect and focus on me as their leader. We lost 10 - 5, so I guess that answers that. We're 6 - 3 in the fall season.<P>Thanks so much for the excellent advice. It's amazing how you "phony internet folks" can be so insightful. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Let me answer a few questions and provide some more background:<P>Getting to Jo's suspicion of "something has happened": In addition to my previous reply to Jo, I think what's going on is the combination of her failing to get credit because of the equity line thing and the clear message she's been getting from <son's> therapist that <son> needs a lot of help. W quoted the therapist as saying "You've totally f***** him up!!" (Referring to both of us).<P>This leads me to Mother's questions about the counselor: My wife picked this counselor on the recommendation of a former Dr. who could no longer see <son> because he moved out of the area. W told me she was pursuing this back in September but she pissed me off by taking <son> to two sessions without my knowledge - thus preventing me from participating. I can't say this was intentional, but if I had taken him to see ANY therapist or Dr. about ANYTHING, I would be dead meat. The counselor finally called me, knowing that I wanted to participate, but somewhat curious about why I wasn't coming to the sessions. I explained that I didn't know about them. She said she wanted to meet with both me and W individually and eventually together and finally as a family. Boy, did I jump on this!! <P>I told her I would meet with her and anybody else, anytime, anyplace, anywhere, at any cost. ANYTHING to benefit my son. Without going into details on the phone, I expressed my desire for her help to keep a broad view of my son's problems to look for an opportunity to expand the scope of her therapy to any of us as the needs become apparent. We scheduled an individual appt. with me and I have already met with her. Of course she was unaware of the complete family situation - but in our 50 minutes, I briefed her on my perspective of <son's> problems while asking her her approach to infidelity. I didn't get straight answers at first because her first concern is <son> - she backed away from addressing marriage issues, to my understanding. Most of the conversation was about <son> but I think I succeeded in communicating that his problems are not limited to the aftereffects of losing his brother - that we have to look at the combination of all the stresses, not the least of which is his mother's decision to leave us. She was most interested about my perspective about how each of us has grieved our loss and I think I explained this giving a good demonstration of my understanding of the grieving process. In the end, I was able to drop names of infidelity and grief authors and speak the lingo. By the time the session was over, she was asking me for recommended readings about infidelity. She has heard of MB, but wasn't aware of the forum. She's heard of SAA, but hasn't read it. I plan to collect some stuff for her to read. Bottom line - I do not yet know her views about "treating" infidelity. I suspect she's like most counselors in that she can do fine helping couples once the WS comes back, but is likely clueless about what to do in ongoing affairs - "get over it and move on." I am confident of how to handle the upcoming session. <Son> is the primary focus. I will not broach "it" unless I have to. No sense in trying to win the pennant on the first pitch. Hopefully it'll go a whole season.<P>To those of you who theorized my W is missing me and misses the needs I used to meet: I wish you were right, but I don't think this is likely. Our relationship was cold for many years prior to the death of our son and her subsequent affair with her best friend's H. The only needs I was meeting were the practical ones - financial support and family commitment. If given the opportunity to explain, I'm sure she'll say the only reason she stayed with me for as long as she did was because of the kids - even though I'm a terrible father! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Gotta understand - I was "abusive," OK? By this she means I would have emotional outbursts - venting my frustration that our relationship was a hollow shell, causing her to withdraw further. A classic cycle. I was not knowledgable enough to see what I needed to do. Mix in our son's illness, and there you have it.<P>Finally, I doubt I was as cool as my posted dialogue indicates - a lot took place that I can't remember or didn't describe to avoid needless details. But, I know I didn't get angry and I didn't LB - but of course, she's the one to determine that. I have progressed beyond the stage of having emotional reactions to these events - thanks solely to what I've learned thru this forum. I'm taking a risk that this post will find it's way to her somehow and she'll use it as further "proof" that I'm a manipulative, controlling b***[censored]. And all of ya'll are TOO!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]