. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

ES, <p>I am soo sorry this is happening to you again. The last time was difficult, I remember your story. Listen, I am not sure how much I can help but I will try to drum up some assistance. OK?<p>Don't give up on us. We are here for you and you will survive this regardless of how the 'odds' are stacked against you. <p>Tell me again, how old is your daughter? Has your W ever been on meds for depression? Chemical imbalance type of diagnosis? <p>Do you need to talk to someone from here? I have ICQ or can ask one of the guys from here. Take time and think out your options. We will be here for support. <p>Take Care,
L.

[[[[[[[[Empty Shell]]]]]]]]]<p>My prayers are with you. <p>TA

Oh ES,<p>I'm so sorry - AGAIN.<p>Here's the part I really don't get... ES, how is it that the last court date backed up your W's story of abuse, so much so that you got limited visitation? <p>Gosh, I really thought that you and hopeful would be a success story!<p>Remember how you used to talk to David on IM? You were a saged old-timer who knew the score. You STILL ARE...<p>Time for a change of ... something... we must think about the best way for you to handle this.<p>Let us help you.

ES, <p>You can do this again.. if not..<p>I posted this to JD in response to his draft plan b letter, and maybe it applies to you also...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
She is the one that has to turn to you and say I'm ready... and you need to be in the position that your love for her at this point will do nothing more than eventually die a natural, time dusted, spiderweb gathering death. Are you really that ready to let that dust and webs cover the love that you have for your wife? <p>and now... you know me.. JD, you promised her forever, in sickness and health, in good times and bad, until death do you part...<p>so, is your limitations of forever up? If it is, I'm sorry for you, your children and mostly for the poor woman that will wake up one morning to chilling cold cries of silence and abandonment. For she will truely have to go through life knowing that her husband tried and she awoke to late to his cries across space and time.<p>JD, I love you man.. I'm here for you, may God bless you as you make your journey with him, whether with your W or alone. Peace and Strength go out to you. The shifting sands are encroching the beachhead of a cornerstone in your life, may God bless you.<p>Always
<hr></blockquote><p>Good to see you.. but I'm sorry this has happened to you again. Peace and strength go out to you.

Empty Shell,
Yes, you can. All you have to do is wait and dig into your trenches. My WW accusing me of A, etc etc and treat me like [censored], I almost suiside twice into great D, not knowing that it is not me !!!. WW spread around families and freinds that I do not love her and stingy and so on. I dug in. My mom came traveling 10,000 miles just to tell me ... be patience !, time will unravel and you heart and dignity will be restore. 2 months later I found A ... the same OM that she has EA 5.5 years ago. Now the table turned, her family disown her and her freinds feels cheated by her too. She only have OM's world right now and skating rink that I have not disclose A yet. She did not say anything in the rink so I respect her for that.<p>DIG IN. Be patience you day will come. Do not seek revenge or anger let HIM do it. No one wins in this situation, not even WW or D or you, they do not know it yet. This is hero make out of do not worry about other people prespective, you know who you are and you know that you have to do the right thing. Hang in there, time will prove them wrong !, my FIL came last year and left and told me that he has different opinion about me from when he arrived. Right now, just call one of us or email direclty or keep posting. You need support and I wish I could be there ...<p>Just remember do not do anything, you are in grieve, whatever D & WW says, they need you later, better you and stronger you. They need your sanity to help them out from their fog.<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Empty Shell,<p>You know, there are two concerns here. One is for your marriage and the other is for your daughter. IMHO the concerns for your daughter outweigh those for your marriage. Because your daughter is a child and she needs your protection. Your wife and you, as adults can fend for yourself. I also believe that in an intact family, the relationship between husband and wife is the number one priority. Their relationship is the corner stone of the entire family. But when the family has broken down and the children are being mistreated (yes, your wife is mistreating your daughter by kidnapping her and telling her bad things about her dad), the very mental and physical safety of the children raise to priority one. So I believe that you need to make your daughter your number one priority here. Of course you are taking to a mom here who will and has gone through hell for her kids. But that is how I parent.<p>From experience I know that one parent cannot remove the children from the family home without the consent of the other parent. I know this because in 1992 I tried to leave my now ex-h. He was verbally and physically abusive but I had never called the police on him so there was no record. My lawyer suggested that I rent an apartment and move with my son. I did that without telling my then H because I was afraid... If he were willing to bash me against the wall for not putting the right spices in our dinner, what would he do to me if I told him I was leaving with son? Anyway, to make a long story short. Within 2 days my then H had an emergency court hearing. The judge ordered me to return our son to the family home. The reason was that I'd removed him without his father's consent. At that point I too returned to the home. The rest of the marriage is another long story.. I returned and told him my son and I would not be a victim in my own home and would work on the marriage as long as he would. Well, he never did do any work and we are now divorced.<p>I agree that you should do nothing rash or vindictive. But I do believe that you need to do something now to protect your daughter from being used as a pawn or from being withheld from you. You may want to check with some for the father’s rights’ organizations in our area. They can give you guidance and perhaps a lawyer who will take your case at a lower rate if not totally pro-bono. They may also know of someone who can guide you in doing your own legal work. I did that when I finally divorced my ex-h. I found an attorney who would let me do all the work, she just advised me and showed in court. It saved me tons.<p>If your wife is accusing you of being abuse and she has never called the police, then that has to be brought up in court. And if she has kidnapped your daughter… removing your daughter from the family home without consent is kidnapping. And if you do not even know where they are, that looks even more like kidnapping. One of the best ways to fight such accusations is to be proactive. Approach it from a very calm and loving place. Go to your local police substation and file charges against her for kidnapping. Then call child protective services explain the situation. Kidnapping is an abuse. They should be able to help you, get you some free or sliding scale counseling for all of you. I know that you may be afraid to do this because you have already been accused of being abusive. But does any proof of your alleged abuse exist? Tell social services that. <p>I love my wife and daughter. My wife took our daughter. I have no idea where they are. Her parents and friends say they do not know either. I have filed kidnapping charges against my wife. Not because I want to harm my wife by because I need to protect my daughter. In a previous incident my wife when to court saying that I was abuse. I have never been abuse of either her or our daughter. I love both of them and want my family back. I am willing to do anything needed to ensure that my daughter is safe.<p>Now social services will evaluate you and your wife. They will interview your daughter and others too. But if you are the parent who choose to go through the proper channels for the help your family needs. And you are cooperative with all interviews, counseling sessions, etc. Your wife will not have a leg to stand on.<p>Be proactive about this. But always make sure that you talk about your wife in a loving manner. Admit that there are problems in your relationship but that you are willing to do anything to work on your marriage and/or a healthy home for your daughter.<p>You can take the bull by the horns here and at the same time not be hostile to your wife. If she chooses to interpret your actions as hostile, that is her choice. You may say that if you do what I am saying, she will be angry and you and never forgive you. Well, that might be so, or it might not. But right now she is angry at you and does not seem able to forgive you. So what difference does it make what she is angry at you for. And maybe, just maybe she might be impressed if she sees you calmly, lovingly and willingly using the services available to restore your family.<p>Bless you,<p>Z

. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

Hi Empty Shell,<p>uggh.<p>Why in the world would she think that you were having an affair? sheesh. She obviously is feeling something - and acting it out - by questioning you. <p>I'm pretty sure this is not about 'you'. Hopeful loves you, we do know that. But her dysfunctional relatives have installed dysfunction in hopeful's thinking and actions. These are old habits. She obviously does not trust - which doesn't mean you aren't trustworthy - it just means, that she is reacting to her fears. Step-father/mother obviously operate from their fears, as well.<p>Okay, we know what you cannot do - finances and step-father's influence prevent it. So let's look at another approach - what can you do?<p>Does hopeful ever call at all? Is there any way you can sort of 'carry on' with your life - with or without her - so that she can see that just because she reacts from fear - that there are other ways to behave?<p>Was hopeful abused as a child - or did she witness abuse between her mother/father? Do you think these childhood issues are affecting her decisions as an adult? <p>I don't think this really is about you, I think it is about her fears.<p>Take a deep breath, we're here for you!<p>TnT<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: trustntruth ]</p>

Listen, I'm sick and can only stay a moment...<p>Empty Shell, you are A GOOD MAN who got, for lack of a better phrase, screwed over, BIG TIME.<p>You still are one of the smartest guys I know. <p>It wasn't up to you to get David to listen -- HE CHOSE NOT TO ... <p>You are a sweetheart and hopeful needs help... <p>Please, take care, and know that I care.

. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

Nyneve -- Take care of yourself, get well. There will be others on these forumns who need your assistance far more than I. Unfortunately, I know very well the situation I find myself in, others may not.<p>Thank You Sheryl. I truly appreciate your support.

ES,
while I am agreeing with Z about priority I would like to add that you need to take care yourself. That is the most and your top priority right now. Yes it seems "against all odd" but if you hang long enough you will see other possibilities. Hang in there for now, grieve but hang in there ... time will heal us and time will unravel the way. My prayer goes out to you & your family.

Hello Empty,<p>Like everyone else I am so very sorry this is all happening again.<p>I can't understand hopeful's projecting an affair onto you. What's really going on with her? Talk to us Hopeful !!<p>I'll tell you this. My best friend, over 15 years is male. He's married with three kids. We both took some grief from our spouses - years ago. It all turned around when I truly befriended his wife. She is a great friend now too.<p>Regardless of what happens, you are always the father and entitled to visitation. Things may not be perfect at first and each visit will begin with deprogramming. But your daughter will figure out the truth. You are a good man, and a good Dad and she will know that.<p>When I had my sister's kids I was pretty much the one with the money and the power. I did NOT want them to see him at all. Went to court and he won his visitation and he's an abusive scum.<p>I made a big mistake and very openly in front of kids referred to him as [censored], a lot. He took me to court for that and won. So, I can't say his new name out loud [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Also, and really important that your wife's family realizes and sees, the pain it causes your daughter when you are put down. I eventually saw what my words did to the kids.<p>And those kids loved him Empty. Dad this and Dad that and couldn't wait to visit. If it's possible, it always gave me a mental barf.<p>Now, they are 11 and 13. Guess what? They sent the ENTIRE family and I believe the entire East coast an email two weeks ago. They DO NOT want visitation with him any more. They looked it up on the net and asked us to "petition" the court!<p>They are sick of going there and being told they are fat and basically starved. Told they are stupid T.V watching idiots, computers are stupid, education is for fools. They are SICK of the parade of women and never know who will be there at the next visit. And though my father put a stop to it this summer, this a$$ walked around the house naked in front of my niece!!<p>So, after years of the Dad fantasy they have grown up and see the truth and see him. I don't hear the Dad stuff anymore, they also must now call him by name, not Dad! <p>Hang in there Empty, your daughter too will see the truth soon enough. She will be able to think for herself and judge who is who and what is what.<p>I am sorry for what happened when you posted about your friend here, I saw it and said nothing.<p>There are lots here who care about you and hopeful. If nothing else, you have our listening ear.<p>Take Care,<p>V

. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

Well I guess maybe I should jump right in here for the bash hopeful session. Maybe the way I did things was wrong but its the way I did them. Maybe I should just give my D back to ES and leave the country never to see them again. That seems to be the underlying story here. That I'm the bad parent and that ES is the perfect parent. He does the discpline and I do things with her. I guess doing things with her to show her I love her isn't the thing to be doing with kids. I do take her to the park and such because I love her. But I guess that doesn't count. I'm the bad parent and the bad wife and I just shouldn't be around anymore. Its all my fault. Go ahead and bash. I'll be reading

hopeful,<p>I do not think you are at fault alone ... but both of you !. IMHO, you & ES is not ready to talk about R yet both of you did it and none of you walk out of it. ES admitted he made mistake doing so.<p>I do not see it as a bashing you but to help ES. You could do the same. Probably you should lists all of your complaint about ES and suggest how he need to change ?.<p>I do not see ES blaming you not loving D or complaint about it. ES only complaint that you "influence" D. If ES is a bad man let D decides. If ES has A tell him what ES has to do to prove it to you and gain your trust back.<p>I put a very high regard for a man who is willing to go to work for his family and try to save his family. Couldn't you see it that he is yours ?.<p>Could you give your family a little break ?. Both of you are in very high emotional states, cool down and take a cease fire, never discuss R or anything ... just do your routine for a while until both of you are ready. Tackle one issues of the time. Both of you love your D hope that both of you do not need more reason to work M out and if doesn't work out, both of you still could be parent to your D.<p>[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

I won't bash you either hopeful, but I'd sure like to know what the truth is here. Okay, I've *known* you two for 2 1/2 years, and we never had any idea of the abuse, the neglect, anything. I don't remember you ever saying that ES was abusive, yet in court (by ES's own admission) he ended up with limited visitation, as if he was abusive!<p>hopeful, it took years for me to admit EVEN TO MYSELF that David (my ex, remember him?) was abusive. Everyone said he was, but I wouldn't belive it. Only in hindsight can I see that he was, and it's STILL hard to admit sometimes. I loved him. Is this how you feel too? <p>When ES came here looking for help, OF COURSE we're gonna rally around, just as we would have rallied around you, had you been the one to come. <p>I care very much about you BOTH. Clearly there is more to the story (as is always the case when two or more are involved)... <p>I wish you BOTH peace and love and a restored marriage. If it is not to be, then I wish you peace of your journeys away from eachother, and of COURSE, I wish your children a safe and happy future.<p>**Edit** I went away from the computer and thought about all this. I do care, you BOTH can count on that, and I will be praying... but, this is the kind of situation where I feel I am only in the way. There is something at work here that I don't understand, and have no right to comment on. I feel very sad for your family, and I wish you well. <p>[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Nyneve ]</p>