Spoke to H on Christmas Eve as he was driving to OW's house for the Holidays (as if that wasn't bad enough). He sounded okay-ish, asked about his Aunt and Uncle and their kids. I kept conversation light. But toward the end, when I said I had to go, he sounded very sad. I told him Christmas was going to be difficult for me and that he was very missed by all of us. He offered to ring me today (Christmas Day) and I said that would be nice. He promised. He did that thing where he kept saying "bye" over and over before I finally hung up. He didn't sound happy, but then knowing OW like I do, I can't imagine how he could be. <p>I sent him a text message before I went to bed saying "I lit a candle for you tonight. You are in my thoughts, as always. Happy Christmas Eve. I love you with all my heart. I wish that was enough for you this year."<p>So at 8am, I got a text message from him saying Merry Christmas. I replied wishing him the same and said I was looking forward to speaking with him. Got a couple more text messages this evening - one said that he was having a craving for a sandwich that I make. The next one said, "What did you have for Christmas dinner? I hope you're well, W. I miss Aunt's food, but not the clean-up. Ha Ha." <p>And that was it. It's now 10pm and I have yet to receive that phone call he promised me. The one he promised he would make a week before Christmas and on Christmas eve. He can't even pick up the phone and ring his own wife on Christmas Day. <p>The way I'm feeling right now, I hope the guilt is eating him alive. I have been crying the bathroom most of the afternoon, as I don't want to ruin the day for everyone. H's Aunt is disgusted with him and has considered sending him a text saying as much. I talked her out of it. <p>I have contemplated sending him a text before I go to bed saying the following. <p>"trying to understand why you didn't call me on Christmas Day as you promised. I guess that says it all, really. Goodbye H."<p>I know this is a major LB, but I'm SO hurt and so past the point of caring right now. How can I possibly work alone on my marriage if H can't even ring me to wish me a Merry Christmas? How can I get past this pain? I know that today isn't a good time to make decisions like this, but I'm feeling like Plan B is a VERY attractive option right now. <p>I'm angry because the thoughts of him and OW spending today together is eating me alive. I can't get them both out of my head. I know I have to, but on a day like today, when I'm with HIS family wishing he was here, I can't stop the thoughts. It's all too much. <p>Part of me thinks I should be grateful that I at least got text messages. I know there are some on this board who have no contact at all. So I guess I should follow the advice of my thread below and count my blessings. <p>But it's all so crap right now. Feel like I've been wasting my time and tears on someone who may not be worth it. I don't even think he called his mother today. <p>Very sad,
VE

Hi VE,<p>Your H is a big mess. He's unhappy, guilty, and knows how very wrong he is. Please remember it's about HIM. THE PROBLEM IS HIM. It's not you, VE. You are not the cause of his awful choices. You do not deserve this pain. I'm so sorry for how you feel today.<p>Try, try to have faith that you will work through this and things will get better. You can't make him change. You can't hasten his getting tired of OW. All you can do is work on yourself and try not to get bogged down in your pain. I wish it weren't so hard.<p>I suggest you do not text him. The next time you talk to him, pretend that you had a nice evening and don't even mention his not calling. Can you pretend that he didn't cross you mind because you were enjoying yourself so much? <p>Pretend that you are moving on to build a life for yourself, that you would love to have him in your life, but that if he won't do that, you won't be sitting around moping.<p>VE, I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.
I'm glad you have his Aunt on your side. BTW, I don't think you are wasting your time at all. I suspect that WH will get a wake-up shock one of these days and realize how strong you have been and how committed you are to your M.<p>Take care - hope he calls,
Estes

Hi Venus .. Merry Christmas to you and Estes.<p>Listen V, what Estes says is right, your H is very messed up, being so selfish is the MO of a WS .... they only think of themselves. It is all about him, has nothing to do with you.<p>I'm sorry he didn't call you, Honey. Really am. Don't let on that you were waiting. And like Estes says, when you see him, Plan A. <p>My spin on the reason he didn't call is OW intentionally monopolized his time and kept an eagle eye on him, suspecting he would want to be in touch with you. SHE SUX!<p>You're not alone out there, keep posting.<p>Jo

venusenvy,
What help me out is lower expectation. I always try to expect the worst out from my WW. We are on vacation minus WW. She refuses to go, I did not persue it, it is her choice. My lower expextation ? I suspect she is planning vacation w/ OM, she will not in concact w/ me or 2 D. Nothing for me for Christmas, nothing for my birthday.. She had not contacted us (it is our fourth days) and she turned off her cell (she does it when she is w/ OM). I probably will find out later where she went to vacation. I don't feel like leaving her message even I miss her. Is it waste of time ? ... time will tell. But I know when I have to do plan C there is nothing on earth will change my mind.<p>Hang in there VE, vent here and no LB'ed ...o'k.

Dittos to what's already been said.<p>Venus, don't text him, don't mention it.<p>I found that I had the best control over my emotions when I was able to get rid of expectations and also accept the reality of who my H was.<p>My H has always had a problem with truth, but during his A - I learned to accept that if he told me that the sky was blue - it was probably a lie.<p>Once I accepted that was who he was - for the moment - it became easier. I didn't waste my time expecting him to keep his promises and I accepted that nothing he spoke was truthful. I had soooooooooooo much more free time and peace of mind - it no longer had control over me.<p>((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))<p>Frankly - I think your H has gotten very lost, but I think he still loves you. And I agree - his OW was probably eagle eyed watching - and I'll bet he got caught communicating with you earlier.<p>Let it go.<p>When you speak with him next, simply tell him what a nice evening you had.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Dittos to what's already been said.<p>Venus, don't text him, don't mention it.<p>I found that I had the best control over my emotions when I was able to get rid of expectations and also accept the reality of who my H was.<p>My H has always had a problem with truth, but during his A - I learned to accept that if he told me that the sky was blue - it was probably a lie.<p>Once I accepted that was who he was - for the moment - it became easier. I didn't waste my time expecting him to keep his promises and I accepted that nothing he spoke was truthful. I had soooooooooooo much more free time and peace of mind - it no longer had control over me.<p>((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))<p>Frankly - I think your H has gotten very lost, but I think he still loves you. And I agree - his OW was probably eagle eyed watching - and I'll bet he got caught communicating with you earlier.<p>Let it go.<p>When you speak with him next, simply tell him what a nice evening you had.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Gosh Rosey,<p>Every time you respond to someone it helps me too. I think my XH is your H's twin. <p>Thank you, and Merry Christmas.<p>Lv,
Jo

Thanks everyone, but it's too late. I sent him a text that said the following -<p>"I'm lost for words, honey. You promised to ring me today. I am trying to understand why you didn't, but I can't. The pain is too much. Hope you had a nice Christmas. I love you. Goodbye."<p>His response-<p>"Goodnight. Sorry I didn't ring you. Hope you had a nice day."<p>I lost it. I rang him. He answered, thankfully. Sounded very humble and sad. I stayed very calm and I expressed, in a very non-LB way how I felt about not hearing from him. Asked if he could understand how difficult today was for me and he said yes. <p>Then I did what he hates the most - asked questions. He seemed to take it quite well...probably because it's Christmas. I asked if he knew what he was doing. He said he was doing what felt right for him. I said, "being with OW is what feels right for you?" and he said, "yes. For now." So I said, "but you keep saying you're confused. Are you still confused?" He said yes. I asked about what and he said, "All of it. Everything."<p>What? He's doing what feels right, but he's confused about everything? I don't get it. <p>I then asked why he still gives me hope and asks me to be patient. He couldn't answer. This is my H all over, really. You HAVE to ask questions as he won't offer conversation on his own. So I said, "Do you feel there is a chance we can work things out?" He said, "Possibly." I asked him if he wanted me to still be patient and hang in there. He said yes. <p>To be honest, I got the impression OW was in the room. His answers were short and quiet. Wish she could have just left him alone for 5 friggen seconds to talk to his wife. <p>And he met her family today. I said something about that being pretty telling - that it seems as though he's made his decision about who he wants. He said, quite firmly, that it wasn't the case. <p>I think after that, all I heard was "blah blah blah". He asked about his Aunt and Uncle and their kids and how our day was. I then told him I had to go and he did that saying goodbye a thousand times thing. <p>I hate this day. I normally love this day, but I hate it. I'm so upset, I feel very hot and flush. I think I need to start thinking about Plan B in the New Year. Don't think I can handle his fence-sitting anymore. Don't think I can sit here and wait to be second best. I think I deserve better treatment than this. I'm not doing well at all. <p>Really wish I would have read the replies before calling him. Seems to have only made me feel worse. Can anyone see any positives in this?<p>thanks you guys. I genuinely hope you're all having a good Christmas. <p>love,
V

ve,
There is a positive twist to anything, it justs a diferent point of view. First it will make you learn not to do it again. Second hope you breath a little longer and wait for replay on your post [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , it might calm you down. Now, you have to do plan A before plan B. However there are multiple LB'ed just happen including the no no of bringing up A. Thanks God that H is on his better behavior. Take a look at your plan A, review it, do a very effective plan A then rock H's world by plan B.<p>[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What? He's doing what feels right, but he's confused about everything? I don't get it. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>I finally figured out the "confused" part. That is fogese for, "I know what I am doing is wrong. I know what I am doing is hurtful and disrespectful. But, gee, I really want to do this, and I'm too weak to stop, or I just don't care about anyone but myself right now. So I'm going to go ahead and do what I know is wrong because I want to. This surely is confusing, you know. I guess you'll just have to wait around to see what I decide."<p>That is the pitiful spot your WH is in right now. VE, you can't win by pushing someone in this mindset. If you push him, he will most likely give you the answer you do not want. I know it's hard, but you need to back off and let him wallow in his confusion. Back off and pretend your are OK and are getting along without him. When you question him, it reminds him that he is doing something really wrong. It makes him feel threatened, and he blames you for making hin feel bad. Go figure! You can't win this way.<p>After awhile, if he is still with OW, you can go to plan B. Don't give up plan A yet. But don't ask him any more questions. He'll probably wonder what's up. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Estes<p>[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Hi Venus,<p>I know how bloody hard it is to do some ... NO, wait ... to do ALL the things we're supposed to in Plan A regarding interaction with our WS's. I know it feels like we're going against our grain and we instinctively want to protect ourselves. Try to fight those urges because some of them are LBs.<p>Your H is testing you. He may not be doing it intentionally, but when the FOG lifts and OW is history, he'll consider how well you two have been getting along, how safe and forgiving you'll be. It's totally and completely selfish of him to hurt you in this manner, but he only see's what he wants and how he feels, and he's taking note of how you're reacting.<p>You've got a great SOLID Plan A foundation laid, no worries about what happened today, you UNDERSTANDABLY had a hard time with this, I mean JEEEEEZ .... its friggin Christmas no less.<p>You are still our Plan A Queen ... and we're behind you and rooting for you. You've done so damn good, Venus. You know this A isn't going to last, you should simply Plan A, and watch from afar, and be there when he crashes and burns.<p>We love you!
Jo<p>[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

VE - I wanted to add support. You've gotten some great advice..<p>When you pursue, he will run. For me, the feeling was if I didn't pursue, she'll think I've given up..or not understand how important I felt we were..<p>But the pattern seems to be if you pursue, he will take steps to ensure more distance. You can love him, and let him know how you feel and what you hope for, and stop there. Harriet Lerner describes a model where one person does the "chasing" for both.. he doesn't have to pursue you because you are w such focus..<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Back off and pretend your are OK and are getting along without him. When you question him, it reminds him that he is doing something really wrong. It makes him feel threatened, and he blames you for making hin feel bad. Go figure! You can't win this way.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes. I think Estes49 is right. I think he had pointed out in an earlier thread that he'll associate you w the guilty feelings he's having. <p>
Remember, plan A is to improve who you are. If he decides to try again, you'll need those new skills.. if he doesn't, you'll need 'em also..<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I found that I had the best control over my emotions when I was able to get rid of expectations and also accept the reality of who my H was.<hr></blockquote><p>So true. For me, it was very difficult and took some time..but it's the only thing that worked for me..<p>Change the pattern VE.Change the pattern of what you do and how you respond to situations.. When what we're doing isn't working, people tend to do more of the same, just harder and faster. <p>Doesn't work.<p>BTW, this doesn't mean stopping plan A if you are not ready to. In fact, it strengthens it. Pan A is to, in part, demonstrate changes that you've made to you. You can't deposit LU while the affair is active, anyway..<p>Dan

Thanks everyone.<p>As per usual, the best advice I get is from these boards! <p>Woke up with a clearer head, despite having dreams about H telling me that he and OW were going to get married and adopt a baby. After he told me this, he proceeded to tell me how much he loved me and we ended up kissing passionately. More of a nightmare, really. <p>You are all right about the expectations thing. I always expect too much. I suppose this is based on the things H says to me. He asks me to be patient, he asks me to be there for him and tells me my friendship and support is important to him. When I hear these things from him, I feel like I get conflicting messages. I EXPECT him to start behaving like a H should. I EXPECT him to contact me and I EXPECT to be treated with respect during his A. All of these are, in their own ways, selfish demands. I really need to bear in mind that he's in the fog and I can't expect a damn thing. <p>Wow. That's difficult. Especially since I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect him to phone me on Christmas after he promised he would. Ouch.<p>I'm currently ready "How the One of You can Keep the Two of You Together." Just read the first stage this morning and there's a lot being said about expectations in there. Scary. Just when I needed to read it the most, there it was. It's all about letting go of control. Something I thought I was doing quite well, but realised I'm not, really. <p>So I guess it's back to being the Plan A Queen. I won't expect anything from him while he's with OW this week. I will look forward to H and I exchanging gifts together, but won't expect it to happen. I will Plan A my bum off when I'm with him and work on the changes I need to make for myself. <p>Still could use your prayers, though! :)<p>Thank you!
VE

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by venusenvy:
<strong>He asks me to be patient, he asks me to be there for him and tells me my friendship and support is important to him.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, VE.
I read your first post on this thread with great interest, since I was where you were!! WH promised to call. No, not correct. WH TOLD ME he would "get together" with me, while I was over in OW's town. We used to live there, he now lives there with HER. 3 hours away from our home. He asked me directly "when are you coming here?" See, he knew I was coming, since that is where we "do" Christmas every year. Our dear friend lives there, has Open House every year, we stay the night, do Christmas Brunch with her and her grown children. Same routine every year. Never varied. So, he KNEW I'd be there. So he asked, and I gave him the "blow-by-blow" of my movements for those 3 days. <p>He then tells me he is taking off work Mon-Wed (the exact days I'm to be there). I say, "Well, then, have a very good Christmas, since I'm sure you'll be too busy(MY WAY of saying - "SHE'LL be with you the whole time") to get together...." HE interrupts this thought to say, "NO. I'll have some time to break away to see you...."<p>Later, I go to say good-bye (same routine, HE says it 1,000 times, and never wants to hang up....), so I say (AGAIN), "Have a very Merry Christmas since I won't see you before then...."
He (AGAIN) interrupts me and says same thing!!<p>OK, so now I believe he MEANS IT!!! Did I see/hear from him Christmas Eve/Christmas? NO!! <p>The point of my looong story? I think the advice you've gotten is excellent!! I wish I could take it to heart myself!! I DO believe my DH MEANT it when he said we would get together....so what happened? I believe 1)SHE wouldn't take her eyes off him long enough 2)He was too guilty to see me and have to face that 3) He couldn't figure out a way to see me without having to face our friends/family, too.<p>I like what Estes (especially) had to say about WH being "pitiful." I think that describes them best. They are sooo confused and conflicted that they seem to be chasing their own tails around in circles!! WANTING to do the right thing, but not knowing HOW to get out of the trap they have sprung on themselves.... <p>NO expectations. It's the best way to preserve your sanity. I usually handle this OK. I've learned over the last 7 months. But the last 3 days? As per HIS own words, I EXPECTED him to be true to them, and he wasn't. I'm a mess again. It WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN. It's not worth what it does to me. <p>Try this, VE. No expectations. Makes life feel sooo much better!<p>God Bless,
Lupo

Hi Venus:<p>I think Estes made a good point:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> If you push him, he will most likely give you the answer you do not want. I know it's hard, but you need to back off and let him wallow in his confusion. <hr></blockquote><p>You can't ask him to explain the unexplainable...to justify what can't be justified...to listen to reason when he's unreasonable...in his fog this is just not possible for him....and if you pressure him to reply then you will usually get a response you don't want to hear...not necessary a concrete answer but an answer that will serve to end the the questioning for the moment.<p>You are also breaking what is considered to be a cardinal rule for BS...don't appear to be needy...or in pain...it only makes them want to avoid you to save themselves from having to think about the pain they are causing you...and so you achieve the opposite of what you want to achieve.<p>It took me a long time to understand that patience and time were really my best allies...but after many LB I finally did learn and it has been the thing that has kept me going through all of this.<p>Faye