wow spacecase, you're a great guy. I couldn't do what you are doing (I mean the being so kind after all). chapeau.

SC:

Again, I'm thinking of you. I'm proud of you. You are setting a great example for others possibly facing similar futures.

-Qfwfq

Wow! It just does not seem all that hard anymore, maybe one day I'll know when the turning point was or what caused it. But it's quite simple, really:

Accept that each of us is what each of us is, and that we can't change that. And decide if that which your spouse is, is someone you can be happy with and want to be with or not. Then just do what Love would do.

Hi SC,

I just wanted to note that the idea for the "death" of your spouse was one from Bill Ferguson's book.

I really admire where you are at in all of this. I am the WP that has tried to make amends, and through it all, I have learned things that have helped me to get almost to the same place you are at.

I am still not completely ready to let go, but I understand the loving approach that you and others like TZ are taking towards their loved ones.

Thanks for sharong the lessons that you are learning on your journey. We have all benefitted from them.

Space,

First let me say that I hope this is the catalyst that brings D to her senses. I'm glad you are making the handing over the papers "friendly". That is in keeping with how you have handled yourself in regards to everything else.

That will reassure her that you are the same wonderful Space that you have always been - and that's not changing. You're also right in that it will help your children emotionally knowing that you are the same stable Space they've witnessed the past year and a half.

That said; from one who knows what it's like to let go their spouse with love and peace - it's simply the right thing to do when the time is right. I know I couldn't understand what I just said if I hadn't experienced it myself.

It's a "knowing" that simply happens. People have asked me how,when,where, and why this knowing occured; but I didn't have an answer. At one moment I was still gathering information, about my feelings, my situation etc; and the next minute my need to gather simply ceased and a peacefulness came over me and I "knew".

I let go with love and all these many years later have never looked back with regret or "I wonder"? It just simply was time. I am still at peace knowing the my first husband is dead now; and I did the very best I could at the time with what I had. There was absolutely nothing I could have done more, or different. I am so grateful that it happened this way.

By the way "you have mail!" Blessings, CSue

To all,

Not wanting to sound like a "know it all expert", I would like to suggest for your own personal peace, that unless you feel the kind of peace Space and I have mentioned, you owe it to YOURSELF to "stay in the game" trying your best.

There's no better way out unless you feel this level of peace. Anything else IMHO is emotional chaos. CSue

CSue:

Okay, I'm going to be the umpteenth person to ask: How do you "know?"

Reason I ask is that I've had a couple of amazing evenings/nights of intense feelings of peace and compassion. Night before last, I woke up in the middle of the night with my mind racing about all kinds of possible conclusions and what ifs, and I found that the feeling that SOMEHOW *I* will be okay and get through this incomprehensible mess we're in with our M and the house, and that I'll love my W if we have to be apart for me to be okay... ...and I just held her for a while after that. Then, last night, same kind of thing. I wasn't even aware that I was showing what I was feeling outwardly, but my W commented twice about how nice it was. Is this the beginning of "it?" I won't presume, either, that "it" involves either staying together or getting DVd. But it would be interesting to put my finger on what I've felt the past couple of days.

-Qfwfq

TZ,

Let me say this - what you're describing to me sounds like you are healing in your own "personal recovery" that is independent of your marital recovery.

Now that I've re-read what Space said and I said, what I'm not seeing from you is this urge to take action to disolve the marriage. That came too along with the feelings of peace I've described above.

Again it the the "knowing without QUESTION" that I HAD gathered all the information and that there was nothing more to learn. It's an absence of energy/tension associated with the urge to disolve the marriage.

Let me say this. Since my first husband was an active alcoholic at the time, some of his actions in his deluded state caused me severe distress. But this was after I "knew", and had nothing to do with my decision to divorce. It had to do with the choices he made as a result of his spiraling downward condition.

This may be tough to read, but even though my divorce actions might have accelerated his decline, my level of peace at my decision was unshakeable. In fact it was effortless - it simply was peace. Hope this helps! CSue

TZ,

What you're describing could be the start of the peace I've described. You are the only one who will truly know. And when you do/if you do - you'll have no more questions, because you'll know. Sorry, I feel like I'm talking in circles.

What's kind of funny about it now, is that until it happened I didn't even know it existed. I had no MB, nor do I recall anyone describing this "feeling" to me. However it has been 14 years ago, so I don't recall any more details at this point. CSue

CSue:

Hm... interesting.

I guess I'd have to say this feels like the start of something. One of the things that I have noticed is that, whereas a couple of weeks ago I had felt like I would probably need to snoop "one last time" on my W's computer for contents of email between her and RM, I don't feel that need anymore. And it was EASY to look at her IE history to see when she used her private email account, so I was doing that once a week or so, and I just realized I haven't even wanted to do that. I no longer need to know about contact. I have the info I need, she hasn't let go of him and it continues to impact our R. I guess these days the thing that holds me back from making any fateful decisions is not the status of our R, that's pretty clear, it's the work we have to do to get our house back together and the timeframe for that. It would be financially stupid to sell it right now, with most of the settlement money spent on getting the house halfway back in order, and a possible lawsuit to go through in the next several months that could take a couple of years.

Mind you, I won't live like this for another couple of years, that would be as stupid as selling the house now. But maybe something like keeping the house and only one of us living in it might be an option.

Anyway, I don't know if I made my point very well. I'm not trying to suggest that I'm either anxious to DV or anything else. I'm trying to understand my own state of mind right now. It's kind of funny, but it actually feels kind of good most of the time. I think I first noticed it last week when I was at a workshop for work. I was more "into" my work than I had been in a year, and I wasn't sure why it was that easy to get back to it. Then the feelings last couple of nights. And now, frankly, I feel pretty good. I also don't want to give the impression that I feel this way all the time, because I don't. I'm just starting to realize that I'm feeling good more and longer than I remember over the past year. Most of the past year has been a struggle for me to be cheerful for any length of time, and this just happened.

It's kinda nifty,
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Hi SC,

I just wanted to note that the idea for the "death" of your spouse was one from Bill Ferguson's book.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry Kily, I must have missed something (or maybe it's this splitting headache, or maybe I'm just Spaced <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )..."death" of my spouse?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I really admire where you are at in all of this. I am the WP that has tried to make amends, and through it all, I have learned things that have helped me to get almost to the same place you are at.

I am still not completely ready to let go, but I understand the loving approach that you and others like TZ are taking towards their loved ones.

Thanks for sharing the lessons that you are learning on your journey. We have all benefitted from them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. I am the happiest when I can share and I can help... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do want to say this; it's not like I suddenly turned into a guru or yogi, quite the contrary, I'm still quite the messed-up human being I always was.

If I could describe what I've learned and internalized it would probably be primarily that I began to look at MYSELF honestly, and with less rose-colored glasses. To see what was wrong IN ME, With me, and what I needed to change, where I needed to change my thinking. This is not an easy task; we tend to be so wedded to the "victim mentality" that many of the things we do and are, we justify as "I am like that because such-and-such did this or that to me", and the like, which not only is not true, it is simply the ego's way of avoiding the fact that this is something we have to face and address.

The next thing is probably faith. Faith means believing, REALLY believing, making it a part of who we are, something which we do not understand or cannot explain. For me, it was faith that even though I don't understand it, "everything is as it should be". Always and without any doubt. To quote the "Radical Forgiveness" motto:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> May we all stand firm in the knowledge and comfort that all things are now, have always been and forever will be, in Divine Order, unfolding according to a Divine Plan.
And may we truly surrender to this truth, whether we understand it or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite simply, truly, really internalizing this idea, making it a part of me, seeing the fleeting glimpses of its truth here and there, made me reach the BELIEF that this is indeed, the case, and that this is TRUE.
By truly believing it is true, one's perception of everything that happens changes radically. What my W did, was doing, might do, became un-important. It became the reality and not something she was doing to me. It became what she is at this time in her life. And although it clearly did not make me happy, it no longer made me hurt or angry; because I ACCEPTED it as the reality that IS. It is who she is at this time. And I can't change that.
Once this happened, nothing she did or said could affect me anymore. It simply WAS. How I felt about it or reacted to it was the only thing I could control, and by having the acceptance that it simply WAS, it no longer affected me, it no longer controlled me or my feelings, or who I was.

As this became my new reality, my new way of seeing things, it was easy to love her just as she is. I just knew it was OK. It was meant to be, it was as it should be, and although I do not understand the reasons for it, or yet see the soul's purpose for bringing this into my life, I know there is one, and it is good. The sould NEVER brings something into our lives without our "asking" for it, or needing it for our own growth.

Once I reached this stage, I simply began taking the first steps in the long road of finding out what my soul's purpose for this may be. So I started learning about spirituality, hinduism, meditation. So I can begin to communicate with myself, know myself better, and perhaps one day understand some of the "whys" I have so often asked.

I still hurt. I still cry, I still feel like I've failed in so many ways, and I still make many, many mistakes. But now I do it with a higher level of consciousness. At least some of the time after I do it or say it, I realize I did. And once again I tell myself that is not what I want to be, and once again I send a message to my heart and my mind and my ego: Stop that! That is not what you are, what you want to be! And this allows me to slowly, step by step start changing these things, eliminating them from my repertoire of behaviours and though patterns. Changing my perceptions and my beliefs. Growing.

And so, with these first tentative steps into the unknown, these first few glimpses into what makes me tick, and these first few wild hacks at my beliefs and thought patterns, I slowly begin to walk down the road to a better me. Once I can narrow down those wild hacks into more precise incisions, I may be able to truly begin to understand and grow. Perhaps one day it might happen.

For now, I am content in the knowledge that I have begun to scratch the surface of a new world that exists wholly within me, and with the certainty that this new world is a universe so vast I could never have imagined it, and perhaps I never will see it or understand it. But it has changed my life and who I am, what I am, and I know that everything is in divine order and has happened as it should. So I will continue to tread there and let it take me where I was meant to go. Destination? Unknown!

All my love,
SC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T-zero:
<strong>CSue:

Okay, I'm going to be the umpteenth person to ask: How do you "know?"
-Qfwfq</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I could answer this TZ. But I can't. All I can say is this; you cannot go there with the intention of going there, you go there when it is right for you to go there. And when you get there, you will not know how you got there, but you will know you are there.

SC:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So it's not one of those "Wesley Crusher evoloving in one episode of Star Trek TNG into a guy that can stop time and astral project himself all over the universe" kind of things?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I can deal with that.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: T-zero ]</small>

Hey SC,

Somebody may have said this already but I wanted to throw it out there...

You don't have to have her formally served. You can have an attorney draw up the initial complaint and tell her to go to the attorney's office to pick up the papers. She'll have to sign for them there as though she had been served, but it's not quite as traumatic as having the Sheriff knocking on the door. This is what happened in my case.

I have no idea if your local legal system works the way mine does, so of course your mileage may vary, offer void where prohibited, etc.

o2bsane:

SC's in Texas! They do a lot of things different from us Americans! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sorry SC, I couldn't resist!

love,
-Qfwfq

I heard that! The Texas comment that is! Usually we do it bigger and better, right guys?

JK... now that doesn't mean the Sheriff has to knock at the door. In my first marriage, my X- who I am glad to call that.. it was a 10 month thing... had me served at the door... after he had left one week prior... he went home to Mama and had the papers served on me... I was only 23 and didn't much know what was going on.. and it was traumatic.. to have even talked to me about it, or told me what was coming would of made more sense,... but I guess he wanted out! I am glad he did.. b/c the marriage was a big mess, and I did not believe in divorce... but it was fine with me, if he left!

I would def. go the kinder route Spacecase if you can. Keep doing things in kind gentle ways! It makes everyone feel better. It doesn't have to get ugly.

This reminds me of ... when I filed for Child Support with the attorney general's office a few months ago. I was terrified it would be the end for us, when I did that.. but since my H was pushing the limits in what he gives me for the kids and the Honey collection agency wasn't working too well... I filed.

I talked the whole thing over with a counselor, and after much thought.. I decided to tell him.

He had a fit and told me he would divorce me. He didn't, and later he sd. he did not want to be a deadbeat dad.. and since has started paying me more.. even though there is no order yet for payment... but I am hoping that day will come as things stand right now.

Anyway... be prepared if you tell her for the initial anger phase.. but if you broach it kindly and gently and that it is not what you really want... but that it must be b/c of how things are and that you want a real marriage not a live in housemate.. maybe she will see... your point.

I don't know...

Anyway just my thoughts on to tell or to serve.

Hugs, H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Honey:

"I heard that! The Texas comment that is! Usually we do it bigger and better, right guys?"

Be careful with that "bigger" argument. Or someday they might split Alaska into two states and then you'd be the THIRD largest state in the union!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T-zero:
<strong>Honey:

"I heard that! The Texas comment that is! Usually we do it bigger and better, right guys?"

Be careful with that "bigger" argument. Or someday they might split Alaska into two states and then you'd be the THIRD largest state in the union!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, but if THAT happens, then CA will be the 4th! LOL!!! And that's BEFORE a piece of it falls into the Pacific! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

SC:

Oh yeah? Well, I happen to know that this side of CA is NOT going to fall into the ocean, it's on it's way to Alaska! In 50 million years, Alaska and CA will be bigger than Texas AND CA combined!

Don't wait up, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

First let me say that I hope this is the catalyst that brings D to her senses. I'm glad you are making the handing over the papers "friendly". That is in keeping with how you have handled yourself in regards to everything else.

That will reassure her that you are the same wonderful Space that you have always been - and that's not changing. You're also right in that it will help your children emotionally knowing that you are the same stable Space they've witnessed the past year and a half.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez, Csue, I missed this one somehow!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I wish I could believe that filing will somehow be a "catalyst" for my W's "wake-up", but I sincerely doubt it. She is very attached to her victim mentality, and that make it very unlikely. More likely, she will add this action to her long list of "how he hurt me", and be convinced that I am doing this precisely for that purpose. But, unattached as I am to that possible outcome, it could get very interesting around here, and it would be quite the dilemma for me if she did...

What I do know (or rather "feel") is that down the road somewhere, all I have said and done, WILL resonate with her in a positive way. Someday.

As for the children, they have learned almost as much as I have through this ordeal; my older son called me just a few days ago to ask for "relationship advice" regarding him and his girlfriend! LOL!!!
AND he loved one of my meditations and asked me for a copy of it! Said it made him feel "relaxed" and "calm" after I sat him down and said "shut up, listen, and do as the tape says!" (It was a 10-minute grounding meditation I love!). I'm having a lot of fun with some of this!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />