Hi Everyone,

It's 12:30 on Sunday. Wonder when my H is going to make the decision as to whether he is going to spend the weekend here at home with me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mimi, I agree. I am going to talk to Jennifer about it. This Plan B has to be extremely tight, and as I read about other Plan B's I realiza that if he is going to choose the A, then he has to move completely out.

I do wonder, however, what went wrong the first time. Perhaps it was just too short (6 weeks). BUT, he was the one who made contact with me and agreed to end it. Conditions were established for his return, and he agreed with every one. He initiated the move back. So what happened? Why did it start to unravel almost as soon as he returned?

Confused and concerned.

isgirl,

After he moved back in, did you find yourselves falling back into the same destructive patterns that may have existed before the A? Or was H just unable to keep up with the agreed upon conditions for returning. Did you follow the rule of time. Were you guys practicing the Four rules....time, care, protection and (yikes)honesty? I mentioned before....that sometimes concentrating on what's not working in the relationship and doing mb overload....can be a bit exhausting. How much fun did you have? Did it seem like the same ole same ole....or was it different?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After he moved back in, did you find yourselves falling back into the same destructive patterns that may have existed before the A? Or was H just unable to keep up with the agreed upon conditions for returning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Destructive patterns? Possibly, but since he has an honesty issue, I am not always entirely clear on the things that make him unhappy, that made him feel so unloved and appreciated that he chose to have an A. In fact, the Love Busters he claims I have are so minor you wouldn't believe it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> IMO, it wasn't so much that he wasn't able to keep the conditions we agreed upon. He did those things pretty much without exception - showing me all the bills, including phone and cell phone, giving me his email access, mileage log on his car, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you follow the rule of time. Were you guys practicing the Four rules....time, care, protection and (yikes)honesty? I mentioned before....that sometimes concentrating on what's not working in the relationship and doing mb overload....can be a bit exhausting. How much fun did you have? Did it seem like the same ole same ole....or was it different?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now here is where I think it may have broken own. When he returned, the relationship pretty much went back to what we had done before, particularly on weekends. Same pattern Saturday and Sunday, same places we went to do the same things, so no, it was not new. I wanted us to share the Recreational questionnaires, but he never did complete one. That would have given us some ideas on how to make things new.

We did a much better job of spending time with each other in the evenings after work, rather than just retreating to our respective old habits. Interestingly enough, he now is telling me that my sitting beside him on the couch and chatting, asking him questions, made him uncomfortable. The words "stress and pressure" came up again. Now, I am not a threatening person, I am easy to talk with. I just don't get it.

It just seemed like I was doing everything to try to meet his ENs, but he was only partly invested in it. When he first came home, he was committed, enthusiastic, great on our phone calls with Jennifer, and it just started to decline day by day.

One other thing: we did spend a week in London. He had to go on biz and I tagged along. Even though we were only together evenings because of his work, we really seemed to have a great time.

Another observation: the last time we spoke with Jennifer, we were given assignments. I am still not sure that he has completed his and we are supposed to have our next call with her on Wednesday night.

IS GIRL:

My WS implied that he felt "pressured" to come home but was not really ready. I think it's like alcoholism, they have to really reach the bottom before they are able to stop drinking. They are at the point where they know that the A if bad for them which is a start. However, the negative effects of the A have not outweighed the positive.

Doesn't this stuff make you tired? I keep praying for a miracle that it will all just go away. This is such a tragedy that we are facing.

isgirl,

You mentioned the RC questionaire not being filled out, but I'm sure you did the EN and LB ones right? Hopefully (and who knows) he was fairly honest when filling those out. You say the LBs were really minor, but perhaps "talks" that get into relationship territory are really really uncomfortable. He may feel ambushed sometimes.....afraid to spend time talking with you. Next time around, you may want to schedule those talks so that he can relax the rest of the time instead of stressing that they may come up at anytime and that he has to stay on guard.

Dishonest people are often conflict avoiders. They dislike it. It makes them uncomfortable. They are even willing to lie and rationalize it to prevent facing these things. So if the majority of the time with you (as with OW) he doesn't feel the stress of avoiding conflict....and he can expect it at certain times he can mentally prepare for...he may do better. Eventually, he'll feel safe enough that scheduling may not be necessary. This is how my H is and what we did to get around it. Also, I learned to hold back and control any reaction during his honest confessions. Then.....I could logically get my thoughts together and organized so that I could address it a little later when I wasn't feeling so emotional.

In other words....you may not be threatening....but he may find the subject threatening....I know my H did. Afterall, he'd screwed things up pretty bad, and the fact that I was so nice just made him feel worse and desire to hide his faults even more.

It's a slippery slope.....practicing honesty....without triggering that conflict avoidance thing.

Does this make sense to you in your situation?

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Hi star*fish,

What you say makes a lot of sense. Particularly the part about feeling ambushed. I recall times when he got incredibly stressed out prior to a call with Jennifer, actually saying "Let's see how I screwed up this week." And yes, I tended to use a lot of MB terminology, so maybe he felt overwhelmed by it all. I just wish he would tell me that. It is tough trying to be a mind reader and figure all this stuff out on your own.

Yes, he is a major conflict avoider. In his words, he either withdraws or surrenders by giving in. It definitely ties to the honesty issue.

We did the EN and LB questionnaires. Who knows how honest he was? I know he really struggled with them, again the response and reaction being, "I just don't know." I am almost of the opinion that he wasn't all that honest with his answers, particularly if he quickly became unhappy at home even though I was working on his needs.

I wonder if IC would help him get to the point where he recognizes his feelings and can express them, and more honestly address what his real needs are.

IS:

Remember that HE has to be motivated to do IC.

I'm sharing my growing realization of how much of this is out of our control.

You can see from my thread today that I have lapses into wanting to control the situation, fix things, make things go faster....

Sounds like your WS, like mine, remains deeply in the fog. Nothing will work until that has lifted.

This is so sad for us but it is true.

Try to read CODEPENDENT NO MORE or THE LANGUAGE OF LETTING GO (the affirmations in this book really help me, that is when I'm not hard-headed and listen).

Take Care.

So what do you think is going on?

When he moved out and refused to come home over the weekend, he said (1) we would meet up over the weekend, have dinner and talk; (2) to give him a couple of days and he'd be back in touch.

Neither happened. What is going on with him, do you think? I am pretty certain he spent the entire weekend with the OW. Now where is his head?

6 weeks of Plan B? It probly seemed like a lifetime to you, but if he was still spending his days in the house the way he always had...it wasn't really much of a discomfort. It took more than 6 months of "freedom" for me to finally hit the true discomfort zone enough to question my choices. And with him having access to the house, he could keep pretty good tabs on you if it interested him. If/when you do Plan B this time...get him completely out. Definatly more "reality" effect...and better for you!!

Posted a reply on my thread at JFO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - C

Still no contact from him. Now Tuesday morning. Is he in a self-imposed Plan B? Is he staying away from my, feeling guilty because he probably saw OW over the weekend? What on earth do you think is going on?

Still seeking input, advice, shoulders!

Got an email from him today. Non-specific, just says he's "working on" stuff.

Still looking for feedback from anybody. Thanks.

Hi Everyone,

Sad, sad news. I can hardly write this, 'cause I'm in tears this morning.

You see, I have now figured out that, just as suspected, WH moved out so he can resume contact with OW. Last weekend I thought he was with her. He denied, but said they had lunch together. Made up excuses about where he had been all weekend.

Again now, this weekend. I have discovered he isn't in town, so am 99.99999999999% positive he is at her house (2.5 hours from here).

I guess I have no choice but to go back to Plan B. I am sure he will get in touch with me at the end of the weekend, and I will give the letter to him at that time.

I was so convinced we were headed on the right path. He returned home with great plans for recovery, for no contact, for extraordinary precautions. They all just fell apart, and he moved out again, supposedly to "clear his head." But, just as everyone says here on MB and Jennifer has said as well, the only reason a WS moves out is to continue the A. Right on again, MB!

I am hurting so much today! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thought all this pain was behind me, but here it is rearing its ugly, ugly head again.

Need all you MB vets out there. Need some support. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ISGirl, I am so sorry this is happening to you. But it is better to know the truth than not know it. This is FAR FROM HOPELESS, just remember that. We have many people on this forum who have good marriages now who came even WORSE situations. So, don't give up hope, honey, you are lucky that you KNOW what you are dealing with now.

Take care, ISGirl!

Melody,

Thanks so much! I need all the support and encouragement I can gather right now.

I know there are probably worse cases out there, I just feel so hopeless right now, like I will never be at a point where he honestly wants our M. I have wondered if I want our M, many, many times as I have realized that he is wandering again. I have wondered if he can be "cured" of this. This is his second A in 11 years. This particular one, however, seems to be impossible for him to stop. I guess it is a pretty deep EA primarily and the PA stuff goes along with it.

But do I want my M? Yes, I do, I do! At least I want the loving, devoted H I used to have. How I loved that man! He tells me he is unable to "feel" my love, and that frustrates me to death. I try, try, try and he feels "nothing." So he runs away and rekindles the romance with the OW.

He says he is seeking IC. I think he needs it, but I just hope he gets on that is supportive of marriages.

My friends are back on the "just leave the !@#%$@." bandwagon. Hard for me to hear, but I know they are just being defensive of my pain.

That's why this board is so special. Here people truly understand and don't judge each other for not heading immediately to divorce court.

Now, opinion, please: last time I sent the Plan B letter, I did NOT send the OW a copy as it talks about in SAA. Good idea to send her one or not? Especially since at this point she must really feel like the victor! Would a copy of my PBL sound hollow and empty? After all, the NC letter she received was sent Certified, Return Receipt. Will she just think that these letters are all meaningless? Is there anything to be gained by sending her a copy?

...bumping...

Isgirl,

Have you heard from your husband yet? I'm assuming you haven't or would have posted it.

Okay, second time around.....yes, I think you need to go to Plan B again....but I'm not sure if a quick Plan A....say two weeks or so might not be a good idea. I say this because I think his last memory of the time you guys were together was one of questionaires and such. This kind of backsliding isn't unusual though....there are quite a few folks on this board who spouses have gone back and forth several times before finally being able to end it. He may be addicted to the A....but he is also drawn to you and what you represent. Ultimately he probably wants to be at home. Let me ask you a question. I listened to your explanation of your Plan A, B etc. Did do a Plan A while he was going through withdrawal, or were you mainly doing homework on the marriage?

IS GIRL:

I was in exactly the same place you are in May. My WS did the same thing. He got right back deeply into the A.

I stuck through PLAN B as much as possible as terrible as it is. Now this man who told me in May after leaving like your WS: "Face it, it's over" seems to be lifting his head out of the fog. My friends say the same thing. They are folks who have not been in this situation. I have found it helpful to talk to other people who have been there where we are.

It's my understanding that when they first return to the OP it's like paradise, a euphoria, like a drinking binge. The effect wears off as they have to face more and more reality.

Don't give up!! We're here for you.

I know how much you are hurting. An antidepressant has continually helped me.

I'm not a VET but I certainly have experienced WS building me up and then letting me down.

Those who have done plan B can best advise you.
As for meeting all your En's I think that takes time. It did for my H. Many months!
It's necessary to share the needs that haven't been met and what you want, but I think you cannot put pressure immediately and expect it all to just fall into place.
Because they've not met needs for years so it takes retraining!
One day at a time, one need starting to be met one day at a time.
Over the months my H has started doing more and more, finally realizing his own shortcomings.
It seems you must do a strict plan B from reading you.
Mimi has done a great job as well as others here.
Allowing a cheating spouse to just bounce back and forth between the two of you, OW and you, isn't going to ever make him decide where he wants to be permanently!
So cut contact with him as in the plan B rules.
God bless and hang on, LouLou