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Had a horrible session with Jennifer last night. W really bowed up at her and is resisting her recommendations. She dropped the phone down away from her face several times and made several snide comments about what Jennifer was saying. Jennifer asked me what I would be willing to do for her sexually and Jennifer commented to W that she was a very lucky woman .W rolls her eyes in sarcasm. Jennifer suggested that she make love to me every day for the next two weeks, W blatantly refused like it was an outlandish request. Jennifer suggested W wear some sexy lingerie as an alternative to another act designed for arousal that she refused. W said that she refuses to wear the type of stuff that I would enjoy seeing her in. Most others suggestions W had negative responses to aas well. <P>Jennifer ask W what kind a frequency the she could maintain. W said no more than every other night (which has been her limit her the past few months). Jenn suggested that we make love according to W’s preference (positions etc). I usually beg W for input about what she wants anyway and hardly ever get input at all, but so be it, I’ll do my best. After the call W said that if we are going to make love her way than she does not want our lovemaking to involve sex. That is her preference. <P>She also said that starving people would appreciate crumbs giving to them by others and said that she should starve me in the area of SF for a while so that I would appreciate what crumbs that she is willing to give me. This strikes me as not just neglect but neglect with malice. She said that she knew that Jenn thought that she was scum. She said that Jenn attacked her and had a negative tone in her voice. This is what she says that I do. She said that Jenn needed prayer and the she would pray for her. <P>Jenn asked me to check in with her daily and let her know what I planned to do each day about meeting her emotional needs and she would be there for support. Jenn is not sure at this point if W should be included in the next session. Even if I continue it will have a negative impact on her because she says that we can’t afford counseling and we are throwing money way. She said that Jenn is taking our money and we are getting nothing from it. <P>Thanks for letting me vent. <P>I want a mate whom I can share my every thought and feelings with, to share joy with, to share sorrows with and have a healthy thriving sex life. Why does it have to be this way. BTW, which way is up. <P>PS, This negativity was not sparked by any LB’s or from me or failing to meet her EN’s. It was caused by Jennifer addressing problems in our marriage. <BR> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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And what kind of mate does your wife want?<P>Maybe one that thinks she is "good enough"? Maybe one that is not always pushing and never seems to be satisfied with any level of change she achieves? Maybe one that when she looks in his eyes she's tenderness and when she hear's his voice she hears warmths?<P>Scott, you have some serious legitimate issues, and your wife does need to make some changes, but even your one sided description sounds to me like your wife feels backed into a corner. She might be reacting badly, but I would suggest she feels neglect and malice and is just defending herself by giving it back. Not wise, but really try to think of how she felt during counseling. If she feels like you just don't think she is "good enough" (and you don't) and Jenn told her she is one lucky lady, do you think she felt lucky? <P>You know, the mate you described that you want, are you sure you are offering that kind of mate to your wife. Can she really share her thoughts and feelings without hearing that "tone"? <P>Your intentions are good, I still question your premise and your approach. I find it odd that when she is having sex every other day that at this point in counseling she would be pressured to have more right away. What are you supposed to be doing to fill her EN or eliminating LB's. Seems like pressuring her for more and more and more sex at this point is a LB.<P>But I do understand how emotionally drained you feel today, and I hope you heart will be recharged. I do admire how you keep going, and keep trying, especially given your wife's difficult personality. Your a good man.

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Scott,<P>I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you. When my wife and I were working with Steve, we had almost exactly the same conversation. As long as he was positive about her traits, she was fine. But as soon as we began suggesting changes for her, she blew up and said that she did not like him, he was judgmental, and this was a waste of money. <P>The only advice I can offer you is what has partially worked with my wife. My wife does not take criticism. Notice that I did not say that she does not take it well, she does not take it. What has partially worked is that I just wait until I "catch" her doing something I like, and really praise her for it. When she is doing something I do not like, I merely ignore it. Since then, she has begun to make an active effort to improve her physical appearance and has made more efforts to be nice to me. <P>I also told her that I had no desire to make love to a woman who did not want me. If she does not enthusiastically want me, I will not participate. I think that this would be the best response to your wife's "crumb" strategy. I also have found that when I refuse her "mercy f****", that it really gets her attention. I have also tried to tell her that the long intervals between lovemaking sessions make lovemaking more of a purely physical experience and there is much less emotion involved for me. <P>Right now, I am almost at the point where I am going to tell her that once a week is not enough, and if that is the only frequency that she is willing to agree to, that I would prefer none. <P>Scott, your wife is using emotional blackmail. She is telling you that you must be the one in the relationship who has to be uncomfortable, and there is no room for negotiation. This is not right or fair. There are many women on this forum and other places who would do anything to have a husband who wants to have a close, emotionally intimate relationship. From what you have said, you were your wife's first long-term relationship. This could mean that she does not know what it is really like to have a relationship with a real jerk. <P>I do not know what the ultimate solution is, but I think that the only way to win this game is to stop playing. Right now, your wife is in complete control of your sex life. She is wielding this power like a weapon. This is not how God intended a marriage to be. The Bible says "Submit to God, and Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you." I think that your wife's constant refusal to address and resolve her sexual issues is submitting to the Devil and refusing to submit to God. I will keep you in my prayers, my friend.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John

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I think Isit2late just gave you some valuable perspective, but Scott, I think you have to remember your wife has come a long way sexually.<P>What she said last night was using sex as a weapon and was wrong.<P>However, she has had a fairly long term improvement track record in the SF area. And from her POV (which isn't necessarly right, but it is hers) she may feel like she has tried and tried and yet again she is told it is not enough. I'm not saying sex every other day is OK or not in your marriage, or that you should be content with the quality, but isn't it a disrespectful judgement to just disregard the efforts she made?<P>I think you would have a stronger SF needs case if she was unwilling to try, but she has and in many ways she has succeeded, but not in your eyes, unfortunately.<P>And Scott, what if Jenn had said to you, your wife makes love to you every other day, you are a lucky man. Would you suddenly feel lucky?<P>I am not out to pick on your counselor, which obviously has done great things with a great many marriages, but it seems to me, that last night, Jenn's general demeanor and some statements could be considered a disrespectful judgement.<P>Even though I think your wife has a lot to address, and I feel for what you have been through in your marriage, I can't shake feeling sorry for your wife. Seeing the situation through her eyes, I think I would feel confused, unappreciated, beaten down and scared.<P>Scott, she needs to feel safe.

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Scott - <P>Sorry for your pain right now. This isn't fair - but, life isn't fair.<P>Game playing is the last place you want to go with your wife. People like her - PLAY to WIN - they don't play fair. And they don't play any games you want to play either.<P>They write their own rules - and drive you crazy. I know - I'm in that phase with my H. He's still trying to manipulate me into investing in his illegal business - I'm not - and I'm not sharing any information. Game players are not fun people to know and they are lousy choices for mates - but it appears that many of us have them and seem to be STUCK with them.<P>I didn't mean to VENT here - I actually was going to suggest that you find a way to establish some connection with your wife other than sex and not demand anything from her. Allow Jen to talk to her and work those demands out.<P>Your wife sounds very much like my H right now - maybe we should ship them both out to sea in a raft with no oars. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>

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As a woman who has worked for 2 years to get enough sex form her husband I can tell you this: Working on the frequency of sex is the first step, then you can begin to work on the variety, etc. When our frequency got up to once a week, I felt I had a chance changing the sessions so there was some variety I liked. Since he said he liked everything but that is not really true, I had to guess at what he liked and quit asking him all the time. Sex every other day is really very often! I wish I got that much sex, I could really work with that to make our sex life better. But what worries me is that your wife's attitude seems so bad toward your needs. My husband at least does not ignore my needs blatently, just by accident. Nothing much will change as long as she has that attitude of not wanting to please you. Man, I feel for you as much as I have struggled for a better, more frequent sex life.

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I honestly don't know why I keep arguing your wife's case when if I knew her, I probably wouldn't like her, and she would think I was an incompetent flake.<P>However, I just sense your wife has been trying to please you, even though I know almost everyone else here disagrees. If she weren't trying to please you, she wouldn't have worked up to sex every other day, and with the variety you have introduced.<P>Although admittedly she seems willing to play games, and that is never right, I think that willingness to resort to game playing is her frustration with trying and trying and being met with even more pressure, not a selfish attemept to not please you.<P>Just as we all do not make the best rational choices at times of stress or pressure, I think your wife "lost it" last night, and before you just assume she intends to follow through with her threat and act accordingly, I think you really need to step back and really try to see things from her POV.<P>And Scott, as a wife of an ISTJ man, do you know how many times I ask my H to repeat or rephrase something using a different tonal quality?<P>o2besane's wife was also very sensitive to facial expression and tonal quality.<P>I think she gave you some valuable infomation on how to make her feel loved.

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Scott,<P>I know you are a good man, but I have to echo FHL on this one. Your wife is feeling attacked. Every other day sounds like quite a bit compared to what you had just a few months ago. Start showing her a little appreciation for the progress she has made and stop acting like a SF drill sargeant.

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Personally, I'm leaning towards the post by ISIT2LATE. Maybe my taker is out today, but the stonewalling gets very tiring. Maybe Scott's W. does feel that this is the only way she can protect herself because of her fears, but I think it is destructive overall and no one wins. It becomes a constant dance of pursuit/retreat. I'm all too familiar with this. The problem is, when you stop pursuing, your spouse may just love that distance (for whatever reason, including their fear/lack of desire for a deeper intimacy). I have always been pretty willing to fill my spouse's needs, so it is hard for me to accept that mine are just "too hard" or "foreign" to meet. I also no longer want to accept "mercy intimacy" and be "pathetically grateful" for time my H. is "willing" (or tolerating) to spend with me.<P>Sorry, taker out in full force today!

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Scott:<P>I find this description of last night's session pretty interesting too. I'm wondering how Jenn brought up the ideas of pursuing sexual fulfillment---it seems to me that the appearance is that she was browbeating your wife, and I haven't seen that as her modus operandi as a counselor. I'm guessing that this was partly your wife's reaction to having these "radical" ideas suggested to her, as well as Jenn perhaps pushing too hard. <P>Heck, the last session that I had with Jenn we discussed (among other things) ways that my wife could pick up her ability to meet my needs in other areas than SF---under the assumption that I would never have sex in the marriage again. Now that may not sound like a whole lot of fun, but I'm suggesting that you might want to take a similar approach---make sure your wife is getting feedback on all your other important needs. And continue to become an expert on meeting her needs.<P>One comment that I noticed was this one:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>After the call W said that if we are going to make love her way than she does not want our lovemaking to involve sex. That is her preference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Although I'm not EXACTLY sure what your wife means, I suggest that you meet her 100% of the way, for a predefined period of time. If she wants "lovemaking" to be her way, I'd say go for it, and make sure that it involves a frequency that she's comfortable with. See how this goes---I'd say for at least four weeks. Let your wife know that you're doing this for her, and that you want her to enjoy it.<P>In other words, work on your giver, and put your taker away. It's pretty clear that you're not going to be able to browbeat your wife into meeting your needs (that rarely works)---so really focus on what her needs are, and do a terrific job at filling those. With a smile on your face, too. You're going to have to lead by example.<BR>

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And what FHL said is exactly what I believe:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, I just sense your wife has been trying to please you, even though I know almost everyone else here disagrees. If she weren't trying to please you, she wouldn't have worked up to sex every other day, and with the<BR>variety you have introduced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Although she's not enthusiastically on-board as you would like her to be, she's making considerable effort. I do think she "lost it", and I think you would be best served by going back, seeing things from her POV, and addressing HER issues, instead of unleashing that less-than-attractive taker of yours.

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On the positive side, I got a call from D’s schoolteacher (who happens to be my W today) that her loose tooth was bothering her and she wouldn’t net the nurse pull it. I’m the tooth puller (the only one D trust) in our family, so I had to make an emergency tooth pulling run. D and tooth are now separated but doing fine. <P>One the way home I plan to stop by a local sex store and get a few surprises, oops did I say that? I meant to say that I’m stopping the florist’s for flowers to bring home to my loving W. I also plan to help D get ready for bed, help with home work, help with dishes, participate in any positive conversation that W desires. W gets whatever SF she would like, or cuddling if she prefers. <P>FHL<BR><B>You know, the mate you described that you want, are you sure you are offering that kind of mate to your wife. </B><BR>I honestly think that she has that kind of mate right under her fingertips. All she has to do is just embrace him.<BR><B>Can she really share her thoughts and feelings without hearing that "tone"? </B><BR>There are times when the frustration comes thur my voice, she ask that I learned how to express negative emotion. I turned the faucet on, I’m not so sure that she was prepared for all that she’s asked for. <P><B>What are you supposed to be doing to fill her EN or eliminating LB's. Seems like pressuring her for more and more and more sex at this point is a LB.</B><BR>I had asked her to do a few things so I could have some hope. It was not I who suggested that we have sex every day, although I would have been elated to have been given this gift. <P>John, Thanks for the reply. I see your point and agree with much of what was said. She is trying but she is unable to let herself go. <BR> <BR><B> And Scott, what if Jenn had said to you, your wife makes love to you every other day, you are a lucky man. Would you suddenly feel lucky?</B><BR>I think Jenn was trying to get this point across. <I> she does not know what it is really like to have a relationship with a real jerk. <BR> </I><P><B>Game playing is the last place you want to go with your wife. </B><BR>Well, actually I do have a few games in mind but it involves cards, spinners and props. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><B>They write their own rules - and drive you crazy[b/]<BR>And sometimes they make ‘em up as they go along. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] We still gotta love ‘em tho don’t we ? <P>[b]But what worries me is that your wife's attitude seems so bad toward your needs. </B><BR>She gets huffy sometimes. She’ll sweeten up.<P><B>My husband at least does not ignore my needs blatently, just by accident. </B><BR>My W has not blatantly ignored my needs in a while, she just threatens to. I hate it when she does this but at least she doesn’t stay withdrawn for weeks like she used to. <P><B>Start showing her a little appreciation for the progress she has made and stop acting like a SF drill sargeant.[b/]<BR>Yes ma’am [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>[b]Maybe my taker is out today, but the stonewalling gets very tiring.</B><BR>Creates a lot of frustration. <P> <P><BR> <P><BR> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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K<BR><B>I'm wondering how Jenn brought up the ideas of pursuing sexual fulfillment---</B><P>Actually when I heard Jenn negotiating this I got so excited I forgot about what led up to this. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Seriously, I believe that my W was trying to convince Jenn that she could not enjoy sex unless the interval was more or less on her level. Jenn was trying to broaden her perspective here but I would have to do things her way and not ask for new stuff. <P><B>Although I'm not EXACTLY sure what your wife means, </B><BR>She was having an angry outburst and this was her way of controlling me. She says a lots of things that she does not mean when she feels pushed. <BR> <P><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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Good Plan, Scott!!!!<P>Between loads of laundry I was thinking about your situation and hoping that you two could agree that lastnights counseling session was paid torture...and despite your differences that you both have a goal for a happy marriage and family.<P>Pulling your daughter's tooth was really sweet!<P>Does your wife have a teaching degree? <P>I do think you can grab unto the "appreciation" message and the tonal quality.<P>Practise "I'm going to take the garbage out now, honey" with a pleasing voice. Even if my H is saying stuff that is not personal in nature, if I sense that "tone", I tense up. That's hardly fair, but it's true.<P>Another example is my Pastor. I have a hard time feeling spiritually uplifted with his sermons. He prints them out for anyone that misses one. One week when I was sick, I read it. It surprised me how "good" it was, and I was sorry I missed one "good" one. Went back, same old sermons. Missed another, and that one was good, too. Hmmm.... Then I studied a number of them I heard, by reading them afterward with my daughter. They were all "good" when I read them, although I walked away with a completely different opinion previously after "hearing" them. I came to the conclusion it is his rather stern tonal quality, not unlike my H's, and his serious expression. I try to listen better by tuning out his tonal quality and it really helps. Of course on a personal level, that is not as easy with my H.<P>Don't know if it is the same for your wife, but I would love if my H would seek out more eye contact. Not a stare down, but a loving look. And if he would walk up to me and touch my face or reach out for my hand, that would be wonderful. But he is more strickly business in his waking hours, except when he is pursuing recreation.<P>I'm rambling, but now I can put in my next load of laundry feeling much better [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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<B>Does your wife have a teaching degree? </B><BR>Nope, she is a sub. She likes to hang out around D. <P>------------------<BR>Scott

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Your plan sounds pretty good Scott, but I sense a tone of dread. You want to make your marriage great, but the drudgery of what you have to do isgeting to you. And it's getting to your wife too, though her definition of drudgery is different. Nevertheless, you both are feeling it in some form.<P>I have an idea to take the drudgery out. Does your wife like to dance? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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I struggled with the idea of posting this letter. No one here has ever seen my W’s POV so I thought that it might add some perspective. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dear Scott,<BR>I'm typing you this letter because I have been thinking of you a lot today and besides I could use the help with my typing. First, I want to say that I am sorry for any and all negative remarks that I may have made last night. I get very frustrated when I am spending money and I have nothing to show for it. I personal feel that Jennifer and I have not hit it off very well. I intend to pray for patients with her. I agreed to keep talking with her until school is out. I fully intend to keep my end of the deal. I will also try hard to not be judgemental. So If I am quite around you, please don't take it personnal. If I can't say something postive than I won’t say anything at all. I want you to know that I do love you very much and I want more than anything to be in love with you. I am not there yet, but working toward it. We both know what our problems are and I believe that we both are willing to try---- Please try to have patients with me when it comes to sex. I want you to have a good sex life. I really do want you to be happy. Sometimes you feel like a stranger to me and it is hard to make love to a stranger. I may not ever be able to do all the things on your sex list but if we put our minds together I believe that we could come up with some other things to add to your list that we both can enjoy. I am looking forward to our trip to New York. I only wish that I wasn't going to be on my period. If I'm having cramps, it's hard to enjoy sking or skating or other physical avtivities. I want us to hold hands and hug and kiss and talk and sit and If there is a night that I can touch you and make you feel good, I will do it for you. Scott I do love you, please don't ever forget that. I know latley that you and I both talk about ending our marriage ------ I know deep in my heart that neither of us really want that. It's just the hurt talking. Please continue to work on connecting our hearts -----keep praying------god gives his answer in his time work hard at having patients and I'll work hard at having a more open mind when it comes to sex. I'm not sure if any of this will make any sence. My typing and spelling needs a lot of work and D keeps needing things so I am stopping a lot and I am also trying to fix dinner. Also I keep looking over my shoulder to make sure that BIL hasn't come in. I just want you to know some of my thoughts. I look forward to making love to you tonight. D will need a spelling test before she goes to bed and I will need to lay out our clothes for school tomorrow. I teach Ms. Bowman's class. It would be nice if we could get D to bed on time and than go to our room and talk, make love and maybe watch the movie that you recorded while lying close together.<P>Love always, *****<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>First, I want to say that I am sorry for any and all negative remarks that I may have made last night</B><BR>Often times W offers a blanket apology like “I’m so sorry for whatever it is that I’ve done, I’m sorry for being a bad person”. I’m not sure that she knows or accepts what issues that he is apologizing for and apologies made by sacrificing her self worth is a love buster to me. I don’t need to hear “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry”. What is important to me is that she acknowledges how I feel ant that my feelings are legitimate. Her most hurtful comment was that she thought that I needed to be starved for a while so I would appreciate what crumbs that she was willing to give me. She also referred to my SF list as crazy and sick. I’m not sure if this is another sacrificial “band-aide” apology because she thinks it is what I want to hear, and she’s still thinking in the back of her mind “Well, had Jenn read his list I know she would think that it his ideas are perverted”. <P><BR> <P><B> I personal feel that Jennifer and I have not hit it off very well. I intend to pray for patients with her</B><BR>Jenn mentioned something to me yesterday about setting ourselves up to fail. I don’t think that our marriage is set up to fail. I do think that W entered counseling with the intention of the counseling itself to fail. She also wants to avoid discussing matters when it comes to her considering new sexual ideas. She does not think that she is sexually inhibited or has sexual aversions. She has attempted to get Jenn to examine my SF list and side with her by telling me that my desires are perverted. She got angry when Jenn refused to be manipulated. Also, when a conflict avoidor first goes into counseling, is it common for him to go thru a cycle disliking the counselor at first and then later learn to open up and relax ?<P><B> I want you to know that I do love you very much and I want more than anything to be in love with you I am not there yet, but working toward it. </B> <BR>A quote from Jenn.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is my job to get my W to fall in love with my by meeting her EN’s and avoiding LB’s, it is not my job to fall in love with her”. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>The same should go for her. It sounds like she is working to fall in love with me. If we followed the plan together it would make it so much easier for me to do what I needed to do to make her fall in love with me and enjoy it in the process. <P><B>I may not ever be able to do all the things on your sex list</B><BR>Looking at that phrase <B> not ever </B> is scary. I think of it as “not yet”. The problem is if I let it lie it would be a dead issue forever. I am not willing to give up most things on my list. I can exercise patience if I have real hope but “not ever” does not reassure me. <P><BR>------------------<BR>Scott<p>[This message has been edited by Promised Forever (edited March 14, 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I want you to have a good sex life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I forgot this. My idea of a good sex life is sharing it in a monogamous relationship. I never get the impression that this is what she wants too. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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"Sometimes you feel like a stranger to me and it is hard to make love to a stranger."<P>Scott, do you know why she feels like this? If you knew why and could do something about it, would it make things better? Also, is your answer something that you 'perceive' or have you ever heard it from her?<P>And finally, can we see your list? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Scot, Scott, Scott<P>She didn't issue a blanket apology. She apologied for her negative remarks made at a specific time. She made several. Should she have listed them out for you one by one?<P>She also noted that she knows she reacted negatively to Jenn and wants to be more open-minded. She hits a wall of resistance in herself before she gets too far most times, but she IS trying.<P>The in-love bit. I know where she is about feeling like a failure for not feeling in-love. She feels like it is her responsibility to get there. She recognizes that you are a good man and can't think of much that she would have you do that you don't do already, so if she's not in-love, she deduces that it must be her fault.<P>About your sex list. C'mon, man. this is an area where give-and-take comes in. I think you will need to compromise on this one. She said she wants you to have a good sex-life because you are the one complaining about the sex life you have now. She spelled out for you exactly what she hoped for in your upcoming trip. To her that is a good sex-life and she hopes that you will think so, too. If not, she is willing to stretch herself some to accomodate you. But do not expect her to become a different person. The both of you will have to bend toward each other. If you stay still and she does all the bending, she will fall over.

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