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Scott, so how did last evening go?<P>It sounds like you took this letter kind of negatively, but I am not sure.<P>It also seems you took it on surface only and did not seek out her heart or the big picture, but rather focused on SF issues, but maybe I am off base.<P>It strikes me as an earnest, very sweet letter that would melt your heart, but it doesn't seem to have had that effect at all...or did it?<P>More later...

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Man, Scott. Read your email, dude.

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Ava,<BR>She has said that I talk at her not to her. She wants me to be able to share my thoughts and feelings as they happen and not at like Mr Spock. Over the last few weeks I’ve have shared most ever thought with her. Often times it’s not polished (it just cmes out very bluntly). I never could share many of my thoughts because she was so judgmental and could not deal with the content. She has seen a major change lately and is having to learn to deal with some of my ideas. <P><BR>SF Attachment<P>1. I like deep wet French kisses<BR>2. Would like giving you oral sex to be a common event <BR>3. Would love for you to be able give oral sex. Going all the way to a climax being the goal.<BR>4. Would like to cross over from affection and continue to build on anticipation more. Whispering sexy and sometimes dirty things in my ear. A flash of your breasts as a tease or a flash of you bare crotch while watching TV. A good view of you wearing a thong. I would love it if we to out to the movies and you came back from the restroom and discretely handed me you panties and whispered all the naughty things that you were going to do to me later. <BR>5. I love expressive sex. Talking, describing how your feel, asking for what you want and what feels good. Show pleasure in giving me pleasure. I would like to be able to use expressive words like fuc*k, fuc*ing, sucking your pu$$y during more lustful love making sessions. <BR>6. I would like for us to explore. Try new things. I would like to try anal sex. I would like for you to masturbate in front of me and offer me to taste your fingers. I would like to include a vibrator and other “toys” in some of our lovemaking. I would like to be able to drip honey on your body and lick if off or with whipped cream and strawberries. And later take a bath with you. I would like to try some sex games and sex books that have scheduled activities. It would be a great surprise to come home and you surprise me with a shaven crotch. <BR>7. Would love to make love on the porch swing sometimes. Would love making love in well-hidden public places. Going parking and making out, sometimes going all the way. <BR>8. Would like to develop the ability to enjoy role play sex and share and act out fantasizes and know and trust that even tho we may be pretending that we are making love to each other. <BR>9. I would like for you to read Mar and Venus in the Bedroom. Practice some of their techniques, understand the different levels of love making like quickies and gourmet sex, loving sex, and ****ing. <BR>10. Wear lingerie to bed more often, in particular moderate stuff like what I gave you for your anniversary and on occasion some really hot stuff like fishnet stockings and crotchless panties, and black sheer see thru gowns and teddies.<BR>11. Would love to caress, taste, touch, and suck your breasts more. <BR>12. Would like to be able to more intimate while you are on your period. Hand jobs are nice but you seem not to have the energy and stamina in your arm without it causing you discomfort and that takes away much of the pleasure. Maybe trying “toys” for male stimulation, maybe giving me oral sex, maybe occasionally intercourse. <BR>13. Would like to take baths in our Jacuzzi more often, like one per week. <BR>14. Would like to make love away from the presence of a baby monitor<BR>15. Would like not to have to worry about making a wet spot on the sheet or blanket underneath us. <BR>16. 3 minute intercourse ending in a climax is okay on occasions. There are times when I have trouble holding back and I don’t want to leave you unsatisfied. It seems like a for the last few months that you want intercourse over with within 3-5 five minutes. I prefer the average to last 15-30 minutes. You seem to lose all interest in sex just after you have an orgasm. The highlights for me is to have lengthy intercourse and have a uninhabited climax and also being able to share and feel excitement when you have a orgasm. Lately I enjoy the giving part “bringing you to an orgasm” and I’m left felt empty and rushed when it comes to receiving pleasure. Your words to me “You like to drag it out”. Passionate Marriage has a chapter called Fuc*ing Doing and being Done. I would love to be able read that together and practice being in sync with each other. <BR>17. During showers I would like to be more passionate at times 1-2 per week as an added bonus and have quickie sex or manual or oral stimulation leading to a climax. My idea of quickie sex is described very well in M/V in The Bedroom. <BR>18. Enthusiasm is most important with all of the above. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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Scott, that's a good list. That's a great list. You're not a pervert, not in my book.

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And until she can check off and be enthusiastic about all the above items, she is not quite "good enough"?<P>Her letter sounds like she needs to feel close to you to feel sexually open, and your list sounds like you need her to be your sex kitten before you can really love her.<P>See a problem?<P>

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FHL, <P>I didn’t take her letter as being negative. She is trying to reach out. We have been thru several cycles this year to where she has said similar things and then we end right back to square one. To an ISJT the proof is in the pudding. <P>Last night was a nice as it could have been under the circumstances. My brother has been living with us for the last month and is going thru a nasty divorce. His kids were with us last night at it casues W a lot of stress. Acutlly I fell asleep waiting on W to get D to sleep but awoke as soon as she came into our bedroom. We did have a nice caring SF encounter, and it was too late for a movie. We did talk before hand tho. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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Well could maybe half the reason you end up to square one is YOU?<P>I don't think you heard much of what she said in that letter, or considered the letter in the context of what her needs might be.<P>I have often told my H that he has the "total inability to read between the lines"<P>And he has told me, that he likes that about himself [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>You ISTJ's...I'm working on a few ideas that I think she is trying to say. More later...<P>By the way, I don't think your list is perverted, but if you put the energy you spent on coming up with this list, on figuring out how to make your wife feel safe in your marriage, you would be a lot further along in actually meeting your goal. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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That's quite a list Scott. Look at how big it is! Can you see how she might be overwhelmed by it before even reading the first item?<P>I think you need to prioritize that list and break it up into smaller sections that she might be able to - forgive the pun - swallow. Also, have her list them in an order that she would most likely be able to meet them. Where you have an intersection between your priorites and her willingness to meet them, you have a starting point.<P>It does sound like some of those things are just not in your wife's characater and she may be wondering why you are with her at all. I can see her thinking, "If that is what you want why don't you hire a hooker and then you can tell her exactly what you want done and she'll do it. If you want me to be like that, then maybe you don't really love me. Maybe you won't love me unless I can be like that and if that's the case, let's just give up now."<P>I also think the comment about you being a stranger has several aspects to it. One, she probably doesn't get let in on your thought processes or hear much of your feelings other than complaints about sex. Two, some of the demands you are making about sex (hey, isn't that a LB?) are things she never knoew you wanted before. She is seeing things in you that don't fit the image of you she had in her head. (Probably because you never shared it with her before). That makes you seem like a stranger to her. give her time to get to know the real Scott before expecting her to jump into bed with him and pleasure him 18 ways.

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Scott,<P>I must say I found her letter very sincere. She did apologize for her negative remarks of the night before. <P>She may say these things because she is hurt and feeling backed into a corner. So she has to make the first strike so that she can protect herself. Afterwards I am sure she feels awful about it.<P>Your list is pretty awesome. God knows I'd would love to think my h wants those things. Not w/me though.<P>As someone else suggested can you make a list of things that would fill her love bank?<P>I see a lot of love in her letter, especially mentioning the fact that she cannot wait to vacation w/you. Looking forward to those little romantic moments. Trying to please you.<P>IF she constantly feels she is always going to fail you in this area, then she will give up Scott. It will come to a point where she says "forget it", I've tried MY best and my best is never enough. <P>Do you want her for who she is or for what you wish her to be?<P>I know what it feels like for someone to wish you were someone or something else. Not easy, Scott. You are constantly put under a microscope. If you are not enthusiatic enough or whatever, it comes back to haunt you and then after a while you really don't want to be with this person.<P>You both have to work at pleasing one another. One cannot always want more than the other can give. Has to comfortable for both of you....<P>LH

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<B>if you put the energy you spent on coming up with this list, on figuring out how to make your wife feel safe in your marriage, you would be a lot further along in actually meeting your goal</B><P>She made this comment almost word for word several times lately. <P><B>"If that is what you want why don't you hire a hooker and then you can tell her exactly what you want done and she'll do it. If you want me to be like that, then maybe you don't really love me. Maybe you won't love me unless I can be like that and if that's the case, let's just give up now."</B><BR>Bingo Ts, If i didn’t know better I’d a sore that you just got off the phone with her. She says that I need 20 hookers tho, That way I could have a new face most every night. This statement comes out during many of her LBing fits. <P>TS, I know that you are limited in some of your Harley beliefs. It is important not to sacrifice what is really important to you. It builds resentment and I’ve experiences this over the last years while trying to bend. There are a fews things on my list that I could flex on, not much tho without sacrificing and resenting her over. She does think that most of these acts are only done by hookers and sluts and goes it against her nature. Jenn is preaching to me that she needs to be in love with me before she will be willing to grow. I need some realistic hope that we can get to where I want us to be. I did in fact listed five things for her to do/share with me to help me with that hope. She can’t do it. She needs to be inlove with before she will progress, I need hope before I can continue enthusiastically. I’m not saying that all 18 things have to be met tomorrow. And I hope to grow and share and do things way beyond what I’ve listed here in the upcoming years. If what I want is truly against her nature where do we go from here. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Scott

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I don't think your wife and I have the same personality, but I have been told I am usually pretty good at honing in on what others may mean, based on what they say. I could be way off, but I offer you my opinions to mull over.<P>First of all, it strikes me that your wife asks for your patience over and over. That could just mean that she realizes she does not make changes quickly, but I would think it may be more accurate that she feels you are not BEING patient with her, or at least she doesn't feel it. <P>Are you being patient? If you think you are, then maybe you should explore why she doesn't feel it. My first guess would be the facial expression and tonal quality as well as your general demeanor. Of course as an ISTJ looking at "checkpoints" for proof, she might have the feeling you are watching her with an imaginary clipboard and making notes. Could you be? Do you do your best work with your boss standing over you with a clip board?<P>OK...she basically said she was sorry and told you she made her remarks out of frustration, and even through in she is looking for results. Maybe you keep getting back to square on after what you called "blanket apologies" because you don't accept them. You hold on to them, feel hurt by them and act as if she truly meant every word. Although it is true, sometimes what people do say in rage is true, if she said she said it because she was frustrated and is sorry she said it, then try to let it go. It could make a big difference. The old wife comes out, maybe like something in Alien when she is pushed. Maybe it is proof a new wife is really emerging when she can see old wife as being inappropriate, putting her away and apologizing for her actions. Are you with me on that concept? <P>And it doesn't sound like she and Jenn have hit it off, but it does seem like your wife is still open and is trying to connect better with her. You know Jenn is a human, too, so maybe this half her. As a professional, I would guess that she will be able to find a style of communication that takes care of this problem. Given your wife's personality, I'd give her a big ole A for effort here.<P>She obviously knows she is judgemental and she is working on this within herself. This is a GOOD thing. Personally I don't think she is the only judgemental one in your marriage [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] do you?<P>Then she asks you not to take her quietness as personal. Do you? Anyway, if sounds like she wants to be more reflextive than reactive. <P>She is honest on where she is at in her feelings and where she wants to be. The idea that she is working on this should be applauded rather than shot down. Maybe she is working on being more open and less judgemental. That would in fact make it easier for you to deposit the units that will bring about those feelings. Yes?<P>Sure sounds like she is trying in the SF department and is asking you to make her feel safe. Don't let this fall on deaf ears. Your wife is telling you what she needs. It may not fall into specific MB catagories, but she seems to need to FEEL love to show love sexually. You might think she SHOULD be able to, but there seems to be a gap that you have a wonderful opportunity to fill. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] (That was Freudian, wasn't it?)<P>Sometimes you feel like a stranger...what a sad thing for your wife to have to feel...<P>And if all you got over what your wife poured her heart out about sex was two words, "not ever", you missed the entire point. And that sentence sounds like your wife trying to POJA and you clutching your list without compromise. Maybe I am wrong.<P>In her closing sentences it is obvious that she needs to have everything in order first before she can relax. Instead of seeing this as proof that you are not her priority, use it as an opportunity to help her, which I bet deposits love units, so you do have the time together. My H only wishes I had this work before play attitude [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR> <BR>OK, don't know in what context you have been talking the big D word, but it is terrifying her and blocking what you are trying to accomplish. As a Christian, Scott, how can you consider this? And how on earth would it be beneficial for your daughter? Sure doesn't sound like you are considering that your marriage is blessed or that your wife is your gift from God, does it?<P>Any of this change your view point at all?

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Scott, you have your wife in a corner.<P>Why are you trying to force her to meet your needs in such a way? You have mistaken your needs as sexual only when in fact they are spiritual in nature.<P>You are being selfish. I speak from experience. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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DB, you too have mail

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Hey dogbert! I agree with you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<BR><B>Hey dogbert! I agree with you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WOW!<BR>

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I agree this sounds strange. For one thing, I have never sensed any love in Scott's posts. And I have never sensed thqt he has ANY EN under the sun besides SF. He is doing a very typical efficient ISTJ attack on "the problem" and isn't getting the concrete, defined, explicit results HE is bargaining for.<P>Scott, are you human in her eyes? Or just a goal-oriented machine? What values drive your life? Are you more than an SF pursuit machine to your wife?<P>She is pretty clearly Child-oriented. That isn't healthy either. Living through ones kids tends to hurt the kids. But it really wouldn't be better if she were husband-oriented. We all need to continue the process of differentiation. What does her long wishlist of the ideal marriage partner look like? And what are your deficiencies?

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Scott, <P>Since I am married to a woman who is pretty much a clone of your wife, I hope you will listen to me (Incidentally, I am an INFJ). If my wife had written me a letter like this after one of our sessions with Steve, I would be jumping for joy.<P>I suggest that you immediately draft a letter to your wife using this form. You do not need to follow it exactly, but do not change it too much or I will have Kathi come after you with a frying pan...<P>Dear Wonderful, Beautiful Love of My Life,<P>Thank you so much for your letter. I was discouraged by the counseling session, but I am so encouraged by your response. <P>After reflecting on my list, I realized that to you, it was pretty overwhelming. I guess my personality is just such that I want clearly defined goals to work towards so that I can measure my progress. I obviously forgot that you do not approach issues like this. I should be thankful that God has provided me with a loving wife who complements me, instead of being exactly like me. <P>Please forgive me for even implying that I ever wanted to end our marriage. I love you more than any person on this earth, and regardless of whether you are never are able to do anything on this list, I will keep on loving you. You are a precious gift from God that I will always treasure. I guess my hurt just gets in the way, and I say things that I should not. <P>I know that the last counseling session was difficult for you, and I am so thankful that you have agreed to continue. There are many women who would not continue after a session like that. I greatly admire your courage.<P>I guess I need to make it clear that my list was just the optimal situation, not my minimum demands. These are just things that would give me great pleasure, not things that I absolutely must have. I guess when I set my mind on a goal, I just lose sight of how far we have come. And you have come so far, my love, that I can hardly believe it. <P>I know that you and I were together sexually before we were married, and I am truly sorry for that. We both violated the beliefs that we espouse. I think that may be part of the problem, so I would like to ask your forgiveness for that. I was immature and selfish. It was mostly my fault. <P>Anyway, thank you for saying that you would like to make love to me tonight, but I really see that I have hurt you. I could not bear for you to make love to me when I know that I caused you so much grief. Let's just plan for another night. The Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that unless we can enthusiastically agree to make love, we should wait. I would much prefer to wait until you truly have a desire for me and want to please me than to just make love because we planned to. <P>I have also made other foolish comments about hookers. There is not a woman in the world who could ever compare to you, and I could never imagine myself loving anyone but you.<P>Your Repentant Husband,<BR>Scott<P>--Just send her this letter, and see what her response is.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John

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John that letter would be wonderful. I can only imagine how much it would mean to Scott's wife. It could make all the difference in the world.<P>However, if you have read Scott's posts, sadly I don't see where he could write that letter, because it wouldn't be the truth.<P>I hope I am wrong.<P>I also think a great deal of your problem is spiritual. As a Christian, if you are spiritually centered, usually the rest of your life follows suit, at least in areas you have influence.<P>In your quest for SF (which is good), I think you might have put your personal need for SF above all else.<P>For you to imply that you would resent your wife if she did not attain (even in time) 18 of 18 items on your list, and you would consider leaving your marriage and your daughter if your personal needs were not filled to your satisfaction (talking divorce), I can't believe that currently you are were you need to be spiritually.<P>Please consider praying for your heart to be softened.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited March 14, 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithHopeLove:<BR><B>I also think a great deal of your problem is spiritual. As a Christian, if you are spiritually centered, usually the rest of your life follows suit, at least in areas you have influence.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey I wanted to say that. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithHopeLove:<BR><B> For you to imply that you would resent your wife if she did not attain (even in time) 18 of 18 items on your list, and you would consider leaving your marriage and your daughter if your personal needs were not filled to your satisfaction (talking divorce), I can't believe that currently you are were you need to be spiritually. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>FHL, would you say the same thing if the demands were less? Is it that you think the needs are too excessive? What about if one spouse simply wanted SOME sexual fulfillment (and was open to the methods) with lets say a frequency of once a week (or even once a month), and the other spouse (the husband) was perfectly happy being celibate? Would you say that if the wife could not tolerate a celibate marriage that she would not be where she needs to be spiritually? I'm not angry, (well I am but not at you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]), just curious about how you would respond to that question?<BR>

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