Starfish, thank you! I do realize and respect the fact that the MB site is to help married couples rebuild their relationships. I'm also aware of the pain which an A causes to those involved, which is why the harsh comments were expected. <p>I guess the reason I posted was out of desperation....and maybe for encouragement on how to end this situation I've gotten into. For obvious reasons, I cannot discuss this with family, friends or co-workers. I am confused, in love, guilty, happy when I'm with him, sad for what I'm doing and so many more things. Some of the comments have made me realize that he is not the "perfect man" I once thought. <p>There is a saying that "eyes are the doorway of the soul". When I look in his eyes I see something that I've never seen before. Its something beautiful....Not the eyes of a deceiving liar, but of someone who is loving and caring....Maybe that is why I got into this situation....and maybe that is why it is so hard to end it. <p>I can't believe I could have been so wrong about him.

djmb:<p>YOu should check out the thread "the pregnant other woman" elsewhere on this forum. It started out that way, with an OW who is pregnant and hurt that her MM is going back to work on his M with his W. She couldn't understand why he would do that. She also felt attacked here. I sincerely hope she still checks this site from time to time, because I think most people sincerely would like to help out, but come across as angry because that type of person, the OW or OM, isn't all that interested in saving marriages, at least not at first. The Thread I mention evolved, with someone jumping in that was in a similar situation. Her posts were initially very angry, but she's come around to recognizing the need to break off her A with OM, who is married with kids. She's M'd also, but has OM's child. Her situation is far from resolved, but she is trying very hard to solve her problem and extricate herself from the very powerful addiction of the A with the OM. You can do the same if you want to. Eventually, hopefully soon, you will realize your OM's true colors. He can't truly care that much for you, because his attention and affection is divided among three women. Gadzooks, I can't imagine maintaining that kind of lifestyle, myself! <p>Good luck to you.

dj...you won't stop loving him....it's not about changing your feelings....you may love him forever. What you change is your actions. Become unavailable to him....move if you must....change your number, etc.... so that he can't look at you with those "eyes" and deceive you any longer. Slowly and it may be very very slowly....you will be able to extricate yourself from your dependence on him. Right now he is like a drug....and you are an addict. To kick any kind of habit...the first thing you have to do is remove yourself from temptation. It will be very hard....but it is NOT impossible....and you CAN do it. You deserve to have your own husband who will love only you...want to have a family and build a life with you....and his wife deserves to have hers. Think about what is happening to your life....you are throwing it away on someone who doesn't really love you....his actions prove that. Do it dj

I don't think God "makes" us fall in love with someone. We have a free will and we are tested many times throughout our lives. Sometimes the people we think we love just aren't good for us, or are not available as they've taken vows with someone else.<p>My H also swore he was 'in love' with his OW. Now he looks back and can't believe he ever felt that way. It was infatuation, and a very selfish one at that. Did God "make" him do it? Hardly.

DJ - thanks for coming back to read the responses. I realize how hard it is to read the truth. And I realize that what I said was going to sting, but the only thing that wouldn't sting was a lie, and you don't need more of those.<p>The advice that you will probably not stop loving him is very good. Most likely, you won't - or it will take a very long time. You've read HNHN, so you know that his account in your love bank will never close. When you break contact with him, he will also not have the opportunity to make withdrawals. As much as we want to, we cannot "close" accounts on people.<p>The fact is that an A is an alternate reality. You don't have to deal with his day-to-day activities and LB's as his wife does, and consequently, his account in your Love Bank is very high. Realize that even if you could (or would want to) have a committed relationship with this man, you would eventually see why his marriage is so troubled to begin with. Also from HNHN, you should realize that his troubled marriage is at least partly his fault. The reality is never as good as the dream.<p>I do not doubt that you see good in this man, why else would you love him? But, the betrayer, the liar, and the egocentric are all there, as well. People are rarely ALL bad, or ALL good, contrary to what Hollywood would like us to believe. Even the bad ones have a heart that is vulnerable, but I still maintain that his heart is stuck on his one true love - himself.<p>[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: takola ]</p>

If you really love him, then leave. Love is not selfish--seek what is best for him--and it isn't you! I'm sorry for your pain but one day you will get over him, I promise.

DJ,<p>I agree with madgirl. You will get over him. I had a boyfriend in high school that I was head-over-heels for. We were "together" for a month. I broke it off because of mismatched religious convictions. It tore me up. <p>I loved him even after I got married 4 years later, and worried that I wouldn't love my H exclusively. I have even had contact with him. I dealt with dreams and loads of other things. But I finally have let go and truly love my H as I should.<p>Let him go, hun. You can find someone better, more truthful and loving. One whose eyes look at only you in that special way.<p>Pray about it. Make a list of qualities (single being the first one) and pray very hard that God will bring you a godly spouse and that he would make you a wonderful and devoted wife and that you can meet all his needs, that God ordains for you to meet.<p>HTH,<p>Hoping

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I guess the reason I posted was out of desperation....and maybe for encouragement on how to end this situation I've gotten into. <hr></blockquote><p>DJ, get out of this situation for YOU. For your: future, self-esteem, emotional fulfillment, conscience, etc. There are at least a hundred reasons for you to get out of this for YOU. If not for you, then for the W and kids. I'm glad you took a step to get encouragement and such, and I encourage you, but the real reason you need to do it is for you, not for a bunch of nameless, faceless strangers on the 'net.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by starfish4729:
<strong>....it's not about changing your feelings....</strong><hr></blockquote><p>THAT was beautiful!<p>It takes two trips around all of my fingers and all of my toes to count the number of times I have gone over that - and Starfish said it in those few words!<p>...As a matter of fact, in another thread I wrote something about how we CHOOSE our behavior, but we have to CULTIVATE our feelings - feelings aren't chosen, they are "inspired".<p>I believe I'll spare all the regulars my long thesis on the topic, but it's something I think should be a major foundation to all marriages (with the addition of the Harley concepts though, to spruce up a better-feeling and thus more secure relationship as such)<p>OK.. the short thesis anyway<p>The really short one...
Is "fish" a noun, or a verb?
(Is it a thing, or an action)<p>Is "love" a noun or a verb?<p>A "feeling" is a thing
A "behavior" is an action<p>I love (verb)my wife always regardless of my feelings (noun) about her anytime.<p>And I find that the more I love (verb) my wife - more I love (feeling/love) my wife.
...The "feeling" is cultivated.
the behavior is a choice.<p>How you feel about this man is one matter.
How either of you behave is another - but how you behave will cultivate how you feel.<p>God (by the way) didn't make you love this man. You saw characteristics you liked and then CULTIVATED a set of feelings regarding him.<p>You may have a tough time of it at first, but you can un-cultivate those feelings by omitting the behavior that cultivated them to begin with... best way to do that is to totally avoid him.<p>You're a fortunate one.
When I saw your initial post I figured that it was just someone playing a game, because this is a "marriage-BUILDERS" forum (and some of the less-kind comments made by typically kind posters were inspired hey, there goes another cultivated/inspired feeling again by your other-than-conventional post.<p>I'm one of those hard-cases that believes much reliance on "feelings" is a dangerous mistake. Feelings are shifting sand, a REAL commitment is granite when the resolve and priorities are right.<p>Honorable men make real commitments and stick to them... and so do honorable women, and neither seek to ever divide others who are trying to do the same.<p>Throw out rationalizations like "God" (or the devil) "made me do it", be accountable for your choices.
Leave this man alone<p>Otherwise, be encouraged (in propriety)
and be well

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lucks:
<strong>Perhaps your MM's needs haven't been met by his W.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>First, I T-totally agree with all that Lucks has said - I'm just using this to point out another thing (about rationalizing, a trait I do not particularly approve of)<p>DJ, so what if his needs aren't being met by his wife? Or a wife's needs aren't being met?
...that sounds ugly and mean, but the real bottom line is that none of us has any right to do any more than feel a little sorry for someone who's missing out on something in life.<p>The whole idea behind EN's is to further proof our marriages against affairs - IF we have our ENs met THEN we are less likely to have an affair....
...but we still may, even so
If we do not we are MORE likely to have an affair.
...but we may not, because we are committed to our vows and values<p>....got carried away again.<p>Sorry... hope everyone is well

DJ, what you see in this man's eyes is your own reflection! Because you are a loving, caring, giving person, you think you're seeing that in him. It's called "projection" and also "wish fulfilment."<p>Actions show what people really are, not words, not the shine in their eyes. Could be contact lenses.... or just favourable genes. It's a scientifically proven fact that people whose eyes are fairly large and spaced at least one eye width apart are perceived by others as being innocent, trustworthy and loving. These are all qualities present in babies, who have big eyes spaced well apart.... <p>This man's actions show him to be a selfish predator, who takes time, money, and energy that actually belongs to his wife and kids and squanders them on his various mistresses. His wife may well be desperately lonely and longing for an afternoon at a concert, or an evening at the theatre, or a day spent sailing or going for a walk in a redwood forest. Instead, he's out having a high old time, justifying himself by telling you "oh my wife doesn't understand me. She has no time for me. She never wants to play with me. She doesn't even like sex." Go to any pub of your choice, pick a barmaid at random and repeat these sentences to her. Watch her roll her eyes in disgust, listen to her tell you how many married men sit at the bar and try to pick her up using exactly this "take pity on this poor little baby" line. Barmaids are traditionally viewed by men as "having hearts of gold", also as being "easy meat."<p>This man is poison. And you will stop loving him when you stop seeing yourself reflected in his eyes.

Thank you everyone for all of your encouragement and support!! As hard as it is, I am trying to see this guy for what he really is....<p>Since the second I met him, I realized that he was the guy I always dreamed about as a little girl....my "knight in shining armor"....the guy I'd live "happily ever after" with and have kids with....only I knew that would never happen because his W "won the prize" many years ago....and I'm sorry, I do consider him a "prize", no matter what the facts are or what he is....my love for him is so strong, that even if he was my H, I think I would tolerate him having affairs....at least I would still have him, even if not totally.<p>As I write this, I'm crying....I miss him so much...its been a few days since we've talked...he hasn't mentioned the status of the OW#2 for some time...and I didn't ask...before I knew of OW#2, I knew he was with his family...and that was ok, because that's where he should be....but now I wonder if he's with "her" and it hurts so bad....<p>Its been especially hard because recently there's been an emergency in my family...he was always there for me to talk to....and I could talk so easy to him...moreso than anyone in my life...just the sound of his voice would calm me down...and relax me...life always looked better after I talked to him....<p>I miss him so much I don't know what to do...I don't know how I could have been so stupid and gullible to fall in love.....and why did it have to be so ugly and painful????

I wish for one month you would find a BS and talk with them daily. Maybe you could get some insight on the absolute agony that we go through. I am being judgmental (forgive me) but you should seriously consider what you

I wish for one month you would find a BS and talk with them daily. Maybe you could get some insight on the absolute agony that we go through. I am being judgmental (forgive me) but you should seriously consider what you are doing.
As the BS I would love to correspond with you - anonymously of course so that you could see first hand what you are involved in.

DJ, the other day after reading your thread I went back to look for another thread I had been following a few months ago...couldn't find it, it was on one of the other topics that I don't usually visit, couldn't remember which or who it was by...anyway, it was a looong thread by a MM who had a "love" affair with a woman. He told how they connected emotionally and she fell in love with him...he told her he loved her too, said all the right things, but according to him he was just doing/saying whatever in order to continue getting this exciting sex. I thought you might find it interesting.<p>I had an EA a while ago. Normally I wouldn't tell you how wonderful this man is, because that is counterproductive to my marriage and besides the point. BUT, listening to you, I feel I should share what he was like because of how you feel about your MM. I wasn't "looking", in fact I was on (another) a discussion board for trouble relationships because my marriage was crumbling. Same for him. He had all these wonderful things to say about his wife, even though it sounded like he got the short end of the stick spouse-wise. I would keep saying "I wish MY H was like that...", ect. <p>Anyway, I fell for him, didn't see it coming because niether of us had bad intentions. He was just reaching out to me, and I discovered someone that in a different world would have made a wonderful companion to me. <p>After I ended it, for a long time I missed him. I felt terrible for dropping such a great person. I had so much sympathy and empathy for him in his situation at home. I now realize this is part of the "fog" they talk about. <p>Now, more than a year after ending it, I can see how his involvement with me may have directly affected his relationship with his W. NOW I understand it wasn't all "poor him" bs. Not that I think he's bad now...I just think that he did have a major part contributing to the downfall of his marriage.<p>That's it.

Seekingadvice: I understand your feelings, please believe that I do...and I do not expect sympathy from a BS. I know what I've gotten myself into and it doesn't make me proud or happy. But I did it because of love, not because I intended to destroy a marriage or hurt a spouse. I knew at the beginning how important family was for him....he would never leave his W or kids and I would never ask him to....there was never a chance that "we'd be together some day" because I knew it would never happen. Maybe the pain I suffer now is my punishment for what I've done to his family...and if so, ok, I deserve it....I just need help in dealing with it.

Love?
Love is nothing that you described.
I am sorry for your hurt but you created it and it is not of love.
I wish you the best but somehow I feel that you you won't find it in the place you are now.
Good luck to you. You are in my prayers.

lolagranola, thank you for sharing your story...there are so many similarities. <p>My MM often mentions how much he loves his W (think he could be trying to convince himself of that??). And, like your case, he also gets the short end of the stick...she always yells because he never does enough, she's never bought him a Xmas or birthday card/gift in 16 yrs. of marriage...she's mean to him....and on and on...naturally this causes sympathy from me...I never thought of this as being a "fog", but perhaps it is....<p>I know my involvement with him affected his marriage. A few times things were very bad for him and the kids, since he never hid the fact that him and I were "just friends"....(I'm sure she suspected more than a casual friendship, thou.) A few times he made choices in favor of me, rather than her, and that made their relationship even worse. Although he always said he would never leave his family, I can see where he is destroying it, but maybe blaming her instead of himself....but these are just thoughts....<p>And I would have enjoyed reading the thread you mentioned from a few months ago...too bad you couldn't find it again!

DJMB,
First, because you won't like this response, please read the threads by Free2BMe. That may not be the correct name, it may be FreeToBeMe. She's married to a man who behaves the same way this MM does. Constant A's, always tells the same sobstory to his women, about how selfish, demanding, controlling and frigid his wife is. Free is nothing like that, as her H himself admits. But the story works every time, gets him attention and sex from a succession of gullible women with severe self-esteem problems. He had an A 2 weeks before they were married, and in the 2 years since she's lost count of how many he's had....<p>Do you have any evidence that this man's wife doesn't buy him birthday or xmas cards/gifts? Is it only his word you're relying on? If so, why? you know for a fact he's a liar. He lies to his wife all the time, telling her he's "just friends" with you. If he lies to his wife, he lies to you. <p>Also, could it be possible that his wife yells at him because he DOESN'T do much for the marriage? Where is he evenings and weekends? Does he read his kids stories, help with their homework, do laundry, watch his son play baseball, take his daughter for icecream and show her by example how a nice man treats a girl? Does he model for his son the way that a man should treat his wife?<p>Suppose you got this prize. Wanna be home alone evenings and weekends, carrying the whole burden and emotional strain of raising kids on your own, doing the housework, while he's out there with a succession of girlfriends, looking into your eyes and saying "But we're just friends!! Why are you so unreasonable?"<p>I too read the tales of King Arthur and his knights. This guy would have been dishonorably stripped of his tarnished armour, had his sword broken across Arthur's knee and had his name erased from his chair at the Round Table.<p>Interestingly, you see yourself as a damsel in distress who is totally incapable of doing anything for herself and longing for some man to throw her across his saddlebow and ride off with her. Why do you see yourself as such a weakling, that you'd even be prepared, so you think now, to marry a man who would never be faithful to you, never treat you with respect, be a total selfish ***hole, abuse your kids with his neglect? Make no mistake, this man is ABUSING his wife and kids emotionally while he hangs around having pity parties with any available woman. Sorry if that stings, but didn't he tell you himself he intends to scr*w #2 even though he doesn't really like her and it's not a friendship? The only honest thing he's done is to tell you that he doesn't love you. His actions certainly show that to be true!!

djmusicbox,<p>You seem pretty sincere in all that you have said. (I'm one of the people here who's a skeptic when an odd poster shows up and posts something that's a little outlandish, as in "I'm the OW", in a marriage-builders forum. - It's only occasionally, but I think sometimes people stop in and leave a little something to see what kinds of reactions it may inspire).
....I'm convinced that you are genuine, and perceive that you are sincere.<p>But "sincere" doesn't even remotely imply that you are right, or justified in any way at all. Only that you are being honest as far as you know, and that you believe the things you say you believe... right up to the things your honorable MM tells you.<p>It's a good thing, though... More than that, it strikes me that you are graceful that you take your punches pretty well, and aren't combative when some of us have bluntly said negatively of and to you.<p>You'll be taking some sort of punches all of your life if you don't regard honor and faithfulness as any more important than what you've indicated. "If he was your husband you'd even be willing to let him have affairs?" Maybe so...
...And even if it is so, if you are a very thoughtful person at all you may consider that his wife may not agree. And his greater COMMITMENT based on vows, is to her.<p>Some of the others here have said things to convince you that your MM may likely be lying to you about how his wife treats him. That she's mean, cold, unaffectionate... doesn't remember his birthday.. things like that. (And likely so, and I won't disagree with them not one whit)
...But how about this? -->What if your MM is telling the truth!?!? What if his wife really is mean, cold, ugly in spirit and character and awful in all regards?
...Let's just go ahead and take those things to be for a fact (because it is actually possible)
...Let's go even a step further and say that it's none of his own doing, that he has taken EVERY conceivable step to inspire better things and better feelings and better behavior from his wife - Let's even give him that (because even that's even possible! though likelihood diminishes)<p>OK djmusicbox, all of those things are true of him!<p>Then all of that is his problem.
He won't die because of it.
And even if he will die...
....it's not your problem - you have no right or reason to rescue him or substitute for him to make up for any loss he has with his wife. All back to basics in this that I am saying... back to the ground rules, and quit dallying around with "feelings" (deeply love?) and things.<p>And no... you aren't being punished, your pain isn't punishment. That's a bit of a magical concept, and here's the back to basics assessment of that, too.
...Go into your kitchen and start a pot of water for making spaghetti or something... When it's ready for the noodles, skip that part and put your hand in there for about 10 seconds. You'll be in an awful lot of pain when you do that, and it'll be a lingering pain and certainly not much eased for a few days at best.
...In fact, the intensity and duration that the pain is there will probably directly correspond to how hot the water really is AND how long you keep your hand in it.
hot.... (deeper feelings)...
how long... (how long you play this)<p>Could result in a lot of pain...
But the pain is NOT PUNISHMENT, whether it be for a blistered hand or a blistered spirit.
The pain is nothing more than the logical consequence of doing foolish things.
...If it were punishment, then it would be a mighty unjust thing, because then it would mean that all the "good" (unlike your MM's evil wife) were being punished too..
...Even their children, who've don't nothing wrong at all.... yep, children suffer pain too, because of adulteries that their parents commit.<p>When you get right down to it, the rules are pretty simple.<p>I don't wish any bad thing on you, nor any pain - moreover would hope that you'd pull your hand out of the pot, and in time become as happy as you may be.