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Well, juststartingover, thank you for the referral to the threads by FreeToBeMe. I'd like to respond to the reply by ilmf also....<p>Although the people involved in each A are different, I do have to "defend" my MM from some of your comments....I do know his W to some degree (and not only by what he tells me). She is not a caring, thoughtful or compassionate person (towards anyone, even her kids), which is why I believe his statement about the cards/gifts.<p>As for what he does for his marriage....I also know for a fact that HE is the one spending time with the kids, running errands for them (and for her). HE is the one doing laundry, cooking, cleaning the house and attending ALL of his kids sports (while she would rather spend that time alone visiting her favorite "chat rooms" on the internet to talk to men)...(again, this is verified from other people who know them; not only from what he tells me). Friends often see HIM at the kids school functions...rarely do they see her....HE is the one taking the kids bike riding, out for ice cream, to picnics.....<p>Yes, I do believe (to some degree) that he models the way a man should treat his wife...he buys her gifts, flowers, and never complains.... <p>Yes, he is home evenings and weekends...his family always came first...what he wanted to do or where he wanted to be was never a priority.<p>I am not incapable of doing things for myself and would hardly consider myself a weakling. I also would not say he is abusing his family....would it be better to be married to a total "slug" that never participated in a marriage, expecting the W to do everything, as a slave....but then again, how about if the "slug" never had an A?? Would that be a better mate?? Wouldn't the "slug" be abusing also, by acting as a "vegetable", expecting his family to maintain the marriage??<p>For ilmf: Yes, I am most sincere in what I've said, and I do believe that some people out there would post on this forum as a joke, just to see the response. Trust me, I am not one of them.<p>Ok, it is obvious that this man is a liar...maybe I just don't want to believe that he'd lie to me....and ok, for the benefit of a doubt, he probably is.....<p>Your reference to the pot of boiling water was interesting....honestly, with the way my heart is torn with this MM right now, the pot of water wouldn't be so bad....<p>And maybe this pain isn't punishment....I did a foolish thing by getting involved...I knew that from the beginning....but I followed my heart...and that's where it lead me.<p>Sorry for the long post and thanks for your replies!

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djmusicbox,<p>...I believe you (you know that, from the note on sincerity before...)<p>And that you have taken criticisms (and those aren't much fun whether they're justified or not, so I'm not going to get into "deserves" or any of that stuff) without being combative in your defense, nor particularly stubborn shows an element of grace on your part. I'll respect that, and you will not be subject to any scathing words from me (frankness, but nothing mean-spirited).<p>Thanks for your direct replies.
Evidently you understood and gave reasonable consideration to everything I said, so certainly as a nobody-3rd-party, commenting, that's as much as I warrant.
...So much that there's really no point in me preaching or lecturing beyond that I already have.<p>I only just repeat one point (and not as if I think you missed it the first time, I know you were attentive).<p>It's that even if his wife has completely failed altogether to meet his ENs...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ilmf:
<strong>Then all of that is his problem.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>See? I know that you do...
And of the pain that we talked about - already now even if you do the best and "rightest" things and cut this fellow out of your life, you're already bound to have to deal with the real pain of the loss that you'll feel from it.
...and he will too<p>You can't heal anything by "helping" with his ENs that his wife fail at. (see, that I am not supposing that anything you have said is anything but actually true).<p>The burns will be deeper, the healing will be longer, and the scars will be more prominent for everyone who is touched by this.<p>I am completely sincere too, when I say that I would rather see people doing well than that they ever suffer.<p>It IS sad then that some people (whether they are men or whether they are women) have disappointing and unfulfilling marriages. There's really very little that a 3rd party can do for them, though... even if we see that they are kind and comical, and worthy people in all other regards we aren't really doing them favors if we step in and "help" with those ENs. Combine that with the fact that this person has some particular appeal for you (whereas if the guy was in the same sad strait in his marriage, but ghastly ugly and entirely incompatible in tastes and attributes you'd not be "helping" with his ENs) then....
...well, I guess even the simplest human relationships can be complicated to a point where analysis just leads us down many lost lanes.
...and that's why we have the "rules" established by the vows and commitments, those give us anchors when the other looser ties like nice smiles and witty humor may fray and be broken.<p>If people who are in those sad straits hang on to that anchor, then there is a hope that the broken ties can be mended...
...and the truth is that some will lead lonely lives if they do that - but much of what makes or breaks a person just to be happy is from within, and that's not a magical spiritual thing, it's a conscious commitment to BE happy.<p>That's that guy's bad marriage is HIS problem.<p>OK...
I broke my promise about not preaching another sermon - sorry about that.<p>I hope you well

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To ilmf: Oops! Your "sermon" was indeed welcome! I did forget to mention your point on "Then all of that is his problem"....<p>I do realize that his marriage is his problem....he does too. Long ago he told me that he would not end his marriage because of his kids. He believes kids should grow up in a home with 2 parents. I respect him for that decision, as it proves that he cares more about them than himself. He does everything he can for the sake of keeping a somewhat "happy home". For that, I feel he deserves credit.<p>And (although we know its not right) maybe he justifies his affairs as a rare chance to do something "for himself", since he is usually last in getting ANY of his EN's filled....<p>I do wish, more than anything, that he would have a happy home and satisfying marriage. I care about him enough to want him with his wife and kids, not with any OW, including myself.<p>I never looked at it that way, but maybe I was trying to make his bad marriage my problem too by filling some of his unmet needs.... Why? Because I knew how much he did for others and how little he would do for himself. Since day 1, it was important to me to do whatever I could to make him happy...he even told me that he wasn't used to anyone trying to make HIM happy....(was that just another one of his lies???) He gave me so much joy and happiness, how could I not do the same for him??<p>And how could he be happy from within?? It seemed he never saw a smile at home...only frowns, anger, and constant attempts to make everyone else happy. I was so happy spending time with him, that once he even told me that it seems I'm always smiling....it amazed him that I could be so cheerful....well, ask other people...I'm not always smiling....but whenever he was around, those smiles just came naturally. So was I wrong to do what I did for him??<p>In spite of everything, I think he is doing his part in trying to hold the marriage together, as best he could. And I'm not saying his wife is totally to blame. It takes two people to make a marriage...attempts by only one person usually fail. <p>I know that as a third party to this marriage, I was wrong. And I certainly didn't help matters on his homefront. But how can you not want to help someone that means so much to you and gives you so much, asking so little in return?

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dj, <p>Forget for a sec how morally wrong affairs are, the potential for destroying his home, marriage, lives of his kids, etc. What about you?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Yes, he is home evenings and weekends...his family always came first...<hr></blockquote><p>Why are you willing to settle for a man who can give you so little? Do you not believe that you deserve a man who can be fully and freely yours?<p>I am sorry for your pain, truly. I do think that you have sold yourself short, and that the pain of letting him go should be viewed as constructive pain, not destructive pain. Kinda like the difference between surgery, which frees you from a cancerous growth, and the drain of your lifeforce that keeping that growth would mean.<p>I do believe that you are meant for something better than this. But, you have to let go of this half-life to get there...<p>Good luck--<p>Kathi<p>[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</p>

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Kam6318, thanks for your words of support! I guess the reason why I accepted being with him whenever he was free was because...(and ok, I know I've said this dozens of times)...I loved him.<p>Any time I spent with him (whether it was for minutes or hours) was precious. The length of time wasn't important; the quality of that time was. I was willing to be available whenever he was....a big mistake, I know. <p>Funny, but when I think about it, he was not "movie star" material either....just an average guy, slightly "pudgy" in a cute way, with graying hair (which grayed alot more in the 2+ years we had)...but the attraction was there....it went beyond the physical to something deep inside....something special that no one else ever had...and I don't know if anyone else ever could.

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dj,<p>In the past, I have had married men interested in me....some of them were really tempting, handsome, desirable. And some of them had honestly crummy marriages. I told them when they had finalized their divorce...to look me up. Most of them never left their wives....just had affairs, but one of them actually did, and we dated for while a year later. If he wants to stay in a bad marriage for what ever reason...kids, religion....anything....that's something he has to decide....but it is categorically unfair to expect you to accept so little, and now another OW. No matter how wonderful he is...and I have no reason not to believe you...he has a deep flaw that will end up causing you great pain. You are already so hurt....I hate to see you hurt longer and I urge you to try to begin the healing process and separate yourself from him. It will hurt, but it will only hurt once....he will hurt you again and again....and you will probably have to take this step anyway....so do it now dj.

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dj,
you really are amazing! I've been pretty rough on you, and you maintain your grace. You read thoughtfully, you take time to reply point by point. You are a super lady, and worthy of a man to match you. You come across as sincere and honest. I do come over very abrasively often, even when it's unintentional. I have a real "Thing" about people, especially women, taking "victim" roles - been there, done that, won't ever do it again, fighting my way out of codependency even as we speak. I apologise for my tone and hope that the rest of this comes over with the genuine desire I have to help you. <p>Okay, so this MM does do home and kid stuff, or so his friends tell you. Please be aware that the people who vouch for his stories may well be getting their information from him and not from personal experience. Unless they have been in the house and seen his W glued to the computer, chatting busily with internet men friends, while the kids go hungry and her H runs around doing laundry and errands, how do they know this? Even if it is all too horribly true, his As may be the CAUSE of his wife's coldness and depressive behaviour, they may be the EFFECT. Whichever way round it is, I'm still sort of wondering how he makes the time for his As and all his recreational stuff if he's home every evening directly after work and spends every weekend with his family.... <p>My first marriage was to a pathological liar who was not only an extremely abusive alcoholic, but also a gambler and an adulterer. He was very good at presenting himself as Mr. Wonderful Husband, and had his family and the few friends we had convinced that I was wh*ring around, and that my cold heart and laziness were driving him to drink. I never knew why I so often got lectured on wifely duties, Bible verses and all thrown in. I felt I must truly be an awful person somehow to be treated like that. After the divorce, then the truth came out about the stories he'd been telling as a smokescreen for his own activities, and to discredit me in advance should I pluck up the courage to complain about his behaviour. A woman I'd known for several years told me, with more than enough detail to convince me that it was true, what he'd told them. There were details she couldn't possibly have got from anyone but him. She said that she'd found it hard to believe, as well she should, seeing how often she came to my place over several years, and there was never another man there, I was always busy with housework, and in fact I babysat her youngest child while she went to work, etc. But he sounded so pathetic, she said, she and her H couldn't believe that he'd just make up stuff like that, sometimes he'd even be crying over the phone. What they didn't know was that the phone was at some bar, or some casino somewhere.<p>He had me convinced that his drinking was all my fault, and while I knew very well that I was NOT wh*ring around, he kept me so raw and so offbalance with his accusations that I had two nervous breakdowns. Which reinforced his stories of what a dreadful wife I was - neurotic and hysterical as well as lazy, cold, nasty to the kids, and promiscuous. I got suspicious a couple of times; there were some weird phone calls from women... he always shouted me down and went on a rampage. Offense is the best defense. I only found out about the "gentlemen's clubs" and the "escorts" after I filed for divorce and he threw the information at me. He didn't tell me about his two female cousins he bedded; I found out about them a year after the divorce was final. So my anger is directed at least as much at myself and my XH as your MM. You come in very low on the anger scale! <p>DJ, you seem to have taken his word for it he was with his family when he wasn't with you, slaving away to keep them all happy, sacrificing himself on the altar of duty, and entitling himself to snatch a few moments of happiness with you. How then did he meet #2, and develop his relationship with her to the point where it's ready to go sexual if it hasn't already? This is not accusatory! My scientific training it to ask relentless questions and look for real facts that are provable, that will stand up to the test of rigorous review. There's a lot of "noise" in this signal.<p>As ILMF said, none of his marital problems are yours. It's up to him to get into counselling for himself whether or not his wife wants to do therapy for herself, and up to him to ensure that his kids are protected from his own weaknesses. <p>It's not up to you to try make up to him for anything he may be deprived of in his life. It's up to you to protect yourself from your own weaknesses. I got miffed when you said God made you fall in love with this man; oh no, God didn't! There's another guy out there too, whose interests are directly opposite to those of God... and he, the Bible tells us, disguises himself as an angel of light to deceive and destroy. Love is not necessarily a gift from God. We are told that we shall know for sure whether something is of God or of the Devil if we look at its fruits. What are the fruits of this relationship you've been having? Is any of it in line with Scripture, or ordinary moral standards? Is anybody being hurt by it? How about you? <p>Hon, truth can hurt, but it's the only thing that ever sets us free. The thing that really entangles us is the mesh of half-truths woven into a web of deceit.<p>I really do wish you well, and hope you will cut yourself free.

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dj, I rarely post here, because I also am an OW. But I've been conflicted and struggling and lurking here has helped me alot. After a few false tries I have broken things off with the MM I was involved with, a long term affair like yours, with deep feelings involved. It's very hard, believe me I know.<p>You've gotten some great advice here already, but I thought I'd speak up because I thought it might help to hear from someone else in a similar boat. <p>I have lurked and even participated some, on other boards for people involved in affairs. I have learned alot from those, and also of course from my own experience, as well as the stories here.<p>Disregarding for sake of argument the chance your MM is just a complete user/predator/jerk...<p>I'd bet at the very least the MM you've been involved with lacks the ability (or desire) to face his problems head on. I know, my MM says he HAS tried and his wife didn't care - maybe that's even true. But the truth is these people choose what to them seems the easy road with no bad fall out (because of course they assume their spouse will never know). To have an affair, rather than working on the marriage (trying their hardest to get their spouse to see the need and work with them) - because gee, that's hard and unpleasant to go through and they might even have to (gasp!) make changes themselves, or divorce and lose money, access to children, and the emotional support, domestic support, financial support they do get from their spouse. The pain of seperating from someone they do sincerely love, who they really don't want to lose. Yeah, the MM I was involved with admits he loves his wife too. Plus looking like the bad guy to all his friends, family and associates.<p>The MM you are involved with likely tends to choose the easy way out, and the path of least resistance, least pain and unpleasantness (for the immediate), is uncapable or unwilling to have healthy, mature relating skills - as in being honest when there are problems and sincere in trying working them out fairly. He saw his options as #1 trying really hard to make his marriage work, #2 honorably admit defeat or no desire to work things out and divorce, or #3 have a affair and have a relationship that's "good" instantly, have 2 women in love with him/giving to him - at least one of whom is fresh and not yet drained from his taking, and not lose anything important to him (from his narrow viewpoint).<p>I believe until/unless a person like this works on his own relationship skills problems they are incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone. These flaws, even in an affair, will also show in that relationship - I mean if he is unhappy with you, if you do something that hurts or annoys him, if he feels unhappy in your relationship he will not tell you, or give you such vague "hints" he'll THINK he did but you'd never see it. Then one day he'd be gone, complaining about things you had no clue about, and no opportunity to clear up misunderstandings or work out problems, ask forgiveness for unintended hurts. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in such an unfair relationship. All in addition of course to the married part, which I agree with the MB's, should be enough in itself - don't mean to sound as if I disregard that, I only see more reasons in addition and think understanding those helps those of us who have been weak enough to fall for a married man.<p>Regardless of who did what, and who's guilty of what in his marriage, he is demonstrating that he is the type of person who is at least afraid/too weak to deal with problems in a healthy and proactive way. Sure we can have sympathy for a tough marriage, and even their weakness in dealing with it. But getting emotionally involved with a man like this (in addition to the main reason, that he is married), is a pretty dumb thing to do. (Smiling in empathy here, 'cuz I fell for it too).<p>I can't know how much he's said to you is true, might be mostly lies, might be mostly true or somewhere in between. But I can tell you he isn't capable of a healthy relationship right now with anyone. Until he works out his own problems in not being strong enough to face tough, unpleasant thing, for the best thing over the long haul, but chooses what seems to him easy and painless (or relatively so), and more instantly gratifying.<p>I sympathize, and empathize with the MM I was involved with. I love him still, don't believe he is an ogre either. Just a weak man who doesn't have the ablility or the strength to deal with his real problems in the best way.<p>I've also seen many times that men like this, even intentionally or unconsiously, seek out women who are giving and understanding, perhaps too much so, and then take and take emotionally until they are drained and empty. They feed on the emotional strength we had, are drawn to it (because no doubt their W is drained by now, poor lady!).<p>Well, this became longer than I intended, but I hope some of this helps in some way. I see the weaknesses in the MM I was involved with and still love him, think he is basically a good person who just didn't have what it took to deal with things in a healthier way and made some dumb choices (like me), but although I can understand and care, I can no longer be victim to his inabilities. Until he sees his own weaknesses in all this, and works to improve them I know even if he were single he wouldn't be a good partner for me.<p>We can love and care for people and still know they are not good for a romantic relationship, not allow ourselves to be victims to their big problems. In these cases not only because they are married, sadly we both missed out on that one, but also because they have serious personal problems to address before they are capable with anyone.<p>Take care, I wish you strength and comfort as you go through this difficult time.<p>*I wish MB's would create a topic for singles who like to read here to improve and learn for a future relationship. <p>Juanita<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Juanita ]</p>

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Juanita, there just is no icon for you!!! Way to go!! Thousands of hugs!!! Cheers!! Balloons!!! Flowers!!!!<p>When I grow up, I want to be like you.

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I have received so many touching replies (and yes, even the stinging ones!). Everyone's support and encouragement is convincing me to make the right decision. I am trying to put my relationship with this MM (and the end of it) into perspective. I very much appreciate all of your help! I know I can't do it without you!! Being able to share this with people who understand and support me helps a great deal.<p>And, a very special thank you to Juanita for sharing her similar experience. It looks like we've traveled the same road of falling in love with the wrong person. Your thread made me realize many things about my MM. I don't think he is capable of a healthy relationship and does take the easy way out of unpleasant situations.<p>He had told me long ago, that before we met, he had 2 other "incidents", but they were not as involved as ours. In both cases, he claimed it was the woman who ended it, and it hurt him terribly. (Hey, maybe they realized sooner than I that he really wasn't Prince Charming after all!) But maybe it was just his way of giving me another "poor me" story, which I innocently believed. Or maybe it was his way of "getting rid" of them to make room for me.....Who knows?<p>Many of your replies have made me realize that I more than likely was just another "conquest" in his long line of "friends". There were women before me, and I know more will follow. Maybe that is because of his lack of ability to hold a healthy relationship (even with his wife), as Juanita said. Quite a while ago, I mentioned the possibility of being "replaced" some day....he made no comment. I should have seen then what he really was....but I couldn't.<p>He often told me that I was a great sex partner and did things to him he always dreamed of....that was true, why would he want someone else??<p>And to justartingover, thank you for sharing your experience also. My heart goes out to you for the traumatic experience of your first marriage. No one should have to experience what you did. I am happy that things are better for you and wish you every success.<p>And I have also realized that God didn't make me love this MM. It was my choice. But I wish I knew the purpose of it. Can anyone explain why it all happened? Was it just for us to share 2+ years of happiness and then heartbreak?? I know I will love him till my last breath....he left an impression on my heart which will never be erased. <p>I also hope that my attempt at ending this relationship will not be a false start. I haven't heard from him in a few days (which is unusual). But when I do hear his voice or receive an email from him, I'm afraid that I'll just melt and not refuse anything he asks. How can I be strong enough to tell him to "get lost"? He's always had a power over me which I can't break...and he knows it...(and yes, it is that addiction thing....) I've been dumb enough to tell him that. I do expect to hear from him soon, but I'm scared of what will happen when I do.

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DJ,<p>Hope I don't lose this again. Yesterday, I wrote you a little story. The gist is this:<p>A woman had an heirloom locket that was beautiful and had been in the family a long time. It always went to the first born daughter, but this woman had twins whose b-days were one date apart (late night/early am delivery). She was sad that she couldn't give both her girls the locket. When, on their birthdays, the time came to give the first born, she did so and the second was jealous. She stole the locket but it was soon found out. Then, she gave the second her gift. It turned out to be a locket that was fashioned after the first with her birthstone on it. It was even more special to her than the original because it was made for her, it was new, and she could start her own heirloom tradition.<p>I don't remember exactly what you said that caused me to think of this. Something about how you thought your MM was the perfect person that you always dreamed of but his wife just happened to get him first. I will try to find it. I'm afraid to lose my post though. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by DJ
Since the second I met him, I realized that he was the guy I always dreamed about as a little girl....my "knight in shining armor"....the guy I'd live "happily ever after" with and have kids with....only I knew that would never happen because his W "won the prize" many years ago <hr></blockquote><p>I am not saying we don't have a choice about whom we marry. But I am saying that he knowingly gave himself to his wife. He made a commitment and you need to stick to it. He's not a "prize" to be won. He is a person who makes choices and he chose her.<p>Now, you chose to steal what you could of another woman's H. But you ought to know that there is someone out there equally special and even more suited for you. <p>Now, I suggest that you pray for your future H and family. God will bless your efforts and provide just what you need in a H.
He will also provide protection for your relationship. Just don't go to God and say, "Get me that one." Ask Him to provide for you and to help you be receptive to His guidance for a mate.<p>HTH,<p>Hoping

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DJ, this is something that will be very hard for you. Whether or not we BSs like it, often our WS and the OP do love each other. And whether or not we like the idea, they do experience real pain at ending the A. It seems as if MM is moving on, but you are left with heartbreak.<p>However, it can be done. If you go to the top of the page and click on Home, then check out the Quick Links on the right hand side, you will find a section on Ending the Affair. How the Affair Should End. Basically, this section outlines extraordinary precautions.<p>First, you could write a No Contact letter. Although in your case there is no husband to consider, you could say that you have realised that the A was a selfish indulgence on both your parts, and you owe it to your self to end it, and that you expect him to respect your decision and not ever try to contact you again. This is a vital part of the closure. My FWH wrote a No Contact letter to his FOW after they finally ended it; the letter was never mailed. But writing it was, to him, evidence that he had himself shut the door, locked it and given me the key, of his own free will. That letter is in a special folder in our stationery drawer; if FOW ever writes to him again, her letter will be returned unread with his letter as a cover note. <p>Then, you change your email address or block him from your list of recipients. You change your phone number, or put caller ID on the line and block any number he may try to call you from - home, work, cell, wife's cell, whatever. It's actually better psychologically speaking to CHANGE the email addy and the phone number. Again, it emphasises to you that it's OVER and spares you an enormous amount of pain from triggers. You won't be hoping for/dreading a message from him every time you log on, or the phone rings at certain times. At work, you allow all your phone calls to go to voicemail, and delete his messages unlistened to as soon as you recognise his voice. If necessary, you move to a new job/apartment/house/city. Again, a clean break. If you work with OP, changing jobs is a very very good idea.<p>For me and my FWH, it is not possible to move. However, we repainted all the rooms in our apartment, rearranged our furniture in drastically new alignments, gave away anything she'd ever given him, destroyed personal mementoes, got new bedding, bought a new tent. NOT as an act of revenge on my part!! To avoid as much pain as possible for either of us, by removing as many triggers as possible.<p>There is a very good book you might find helpful: Surviving the Loss of a Love, by John-Roger and a co-author whose name I forget. This is one thing that I don't think many OP realise: that when the FWS returns to the marriage, the FBS is not exactly ecstatic. We too have lost the person we loved, and sometimes we find that s/he is actually dead, or never existed.<p>For both you and Juanita, there is yet another wonderful book: Harville Hendrix's Keeping the Love You Find. This is fantastic stuff; helps you understand WHY you are attracted over and over to the same kind of person, WHY it happens over and over that you get into destructive relationships. I'm codependent, and my goodness me, this book really showed me the destructive pattern I myself have followed in all my relationships. More importantly, it allowed me to determine WHY. Now I'm free to act consciously, rather than keep on in the same old way. I don't remember whether it's .org or .com, but a search for imago therapy will give you the home page.<p>Hey, I do burble on a bit. BTW, MB does have a forum called PreMarriage and the Early Years. I've never visited it so won't actually recommend it. <p>I wish it were mandatory for schools to teach self-awareness, relationship and parenting skills. How many of us ever use calculus?? How many of us come unstuck with parents, friends, lovers and kids?? Of those who use calculus, how many find it helps in relationship difficulties?<p>Further, I think it would be wonderful to have a prescribed class before marriage. Just like first getting the learner's licence and then the driver's. Engagement/commitment entitles one to a learner's licence, and only after both coursework and practice can one get the marriage licence. Okay, I know I'm dreaming.... <p>Hang in, DJ. I'm really sorry I allowed my anger at myself to blast out onto you.

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dj,<p>I am really touched by how many people came out and shared their stories and advice to you. I hope this helps you...I know you can do this!....and I hope you will let us know what happens. Be strong. God is with you.

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Thank you juststartingover for your kind words, it made my day [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'll check out your book suggestion, I've worked through some of those problems over the years, but know I have more to learn. Amusing perhaps that I have in the past chosen wrong guys who didn't appear wrong for a while, and it was actually a comfort to think I at least knew the one really big flaw my MM had from the start. Don't mean to make light of things, but sometimes we just have to laugh at ourselves.<p>dj, your MM's story of past OW's ending things with him and hurting him rings true for me, for the simple fact that lots of these men never end the affair themselves, either the OW gets fed up and ends it, or his W finds out and puts her foot down. Another reason why we have to get our own selves out of the situations we got ourselves into. <p>These men also often tend to come back, or try, the reason you've gotten excellent advice to avoid contact. I understand what you mean about feeling your MM has power over you, to override your intentions, your common sense. Don't know about you, but that's how I got into this in the first place. Not that I don't take full responsibilty for my own actions and decisions, but this man was someone I knew and trusted in my past, and there is just something in me that responds to him beyond other men. What I mean is I can resist attractive and desirable men in general who are wrong for some reason, but this guy, well, I was blindsided because I was so used to being able to hold to my common sense and my morals and my own best interest.<p>Your MM sounds scarier to me than the one I was involved with. He sounds like a serial cheater, and sadly yes, that you are just one in the parade through his life. He doesn't tell you he loves you. He's already admittedly checking out the next one. This man has serious problems dj. <p>But I know you love him, and I can't dismiss that, so I won't pursue that part of things [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You mention you wish you knew the purpose of your falling in love with this man. Was it just to end in heartbreak. I've struggled with similar thoughts and I'll tell you what I think. I can't tell you the purpose, still haven't figured out that one, LOL. But I do think that love is never wrong. I think we shouldn't beat ourselves up over loving these men. What you DO with your love, about your love, and probably even what you allow to be done TO you because you love is what can be very wrong. My experience also humbled me. I have always had good morals, tried to be a good person and not hurt others, had a strong faith, and never been tempted by attractive, willing MM's, or other obviously inappropriate man. I have always had a pretty low regard for cheaters, and women who would cheat with them. Boy, have I been taken down several pegs!! I have now learned that sometimes even basically good, smart people can get caught up with something under the "right" enough circumstances, and I certainly don't have any right to judge. It never entered my mind to avoid innocent time (and was at first innocent - at least on my part) with an old friend I had NO romantic feelings for (at that time), because I had never had trouble with keeping things merely friendly and appropriate with other men before. My point is maybe part of the purpose for me, or at least something I learned about myself, was to humble me, realize under certain circumstances even I could fall into a relationship with a married man, and give me more compassion and empathy for the weaknesses and mistakes of others.<p>Because I understand about the influence hearing his voice, even reading an email can have, especially at first, when you are struggling and hurting, I suggest you break it off with an email, or short note, saying only that you can no longer be involved with a married man, and then do NOT take his calls, if you can make it impossible for him to leave you a voice message, and block his email (doubt you'd be strong enough to delete a message unread, I know I couldn't [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>It might sound cold. I told myself I owed it to my MM to break things off over the phone (we are LD, so in person wasn't an option). It never worked. This last time I finally sent him an email. You probably aren't strong enough if you hear his voice, or read his emails, I understand that completely. Do what you must to protect yourself from that. This man does NOT deserve an honorable break up dj, he is a player who doesn't love you.<p>It isn't easy, I know. Post when you feel weak, or need encouragement. There are other sites that give you support on this kind of thing too, but the ladies here have been pretty supportive. I know the few times I've posted I've appreciated the kindness, even though I'm kind of an interloper.<p>Hang tough dj, you'll find someone who deserves your love and can return it, and in the meantime we're both better off with no one than these messed up men [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Juanita

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Djmusicbox,<p>Early on I could not help but to note your grace! (some of us here may judge and say, &#8220;she ought&#8221;, but even so, you do!) No more &#8220;sermon&#8221; from me this time (no promise of a short post either though, it just won&#8217;t be a sermon). I&#8217;m all sermonned out on this one anyway, and someone so receptive as you (the grace) doesn&#8217;t really need it once all the main and basic points are made.
. . . Instead, I would like to just hopefully leave you some encouragement.<p>It was odd to me this evening as I was reading and catching up &#8211; the circumstance which you appeared to the forum in was bound to get you some less-kind replies. . . and it did at first, but as I was reading I saw that I wasn&#8217;t the only one who noted your grace in that &#8211; there were others, and they were saying things like, &#8220;you deserve someone who can give you that 100% commitment&#8221;, and so on. No wonder this fellow was attracted to YOU. . . certainly not every one of your attributes is as grand (something was lacking for you to get into such a fix), but I would say that if your spirit is thus and so humble as such (taking your punches well, as I had said) then it must be that in all likelihood you are a pleasant person in most regards to begin with. (Here comes the &#8220;encouragement&#8221; part) And with that being so, I&#8217;ll warrant that you won&#8217;t have any difficulty in attracting someone more viable.<p>You said you believe you will love this fellow for the rest of your life, he has made such an impression on you.
. . . OK, you&#8217;ve been sincere on all accounts and I believe you no less in this
So you will. . . but remember (ok, partial sermon) my earlier bit about the difference between love as a behavior and love as a feeling. We choose our behavior, but we CULTIVATE (or un-cultivate) our feelings. It may then be that there will ever and always be a bit of a tender spot in your heart for the fellow, verily. But once and when you meet that more &#8220;viable&#8221; fellow that I mentioned in the paragraph above, and he matches your ideal for a man, and he begins to spend time with you and the two of you cultivate those good, good, and better feelings, then I think it is reasonable to believe that whereas you believe you&#8217;ll love this MM of yours forever (and you may) it will become less, and less compared to the newer (and more legitimate) love (feeling) you may find.
. . . Right now, in the anguish of losing a &#8220;passion&#8221; it may even be that you are willing to separate yourself from your MM but so cherish the feeling that you don&#8217;t want it to diminish, but that&#8217;s only just for a while, too. (If you do feel that way. . .)<p>You said you wish you knew the &#8220;purpose&#8221;. . . can anyone explain it to you, you asked. . .
Well now THAT&#8217;s quite a tall order! &#8220;Purposes&#8221; are many and multi-faceted and often hard to define. . . You&#8217;re imminently the one more qualified to answer that question. &#8220;Why&#8221; did it happen? Well. . . you&#8217;ve already taken such grandly graceful accountability for all that&#8217;s been said here so far. I&#8217;ll be one to bet that if you go and sit quietly and just think about it all and do some brutally honest Q&A with yourself (that&#8217;ll be cool because none of us really needs to hear your conclusions so we won&#8217;t be able to bust on you if we don&#8217;t approve of all of your answers) then you can settle those things for yourself.<p>You said you were concerned that you may not be strong enough, that you may &#8220;melt&#8221;. It&#8217;s a very reasonable concern, really.
But you can do it. . . first, your grace is a great testimony to your strength as such. It&#8217;s a different kind of strength, to be humble and receptive, but still a matter of a positive character of spirit. You can do it &#8211; Acknowledge the very real concern that you&#8217;ve suggested, and with the knowledge of it then you can prepare yourself. (When I am weak, then I am strong. . . has a couple of interpretations, one suggests that once you find out where your armor is thinnest then you can seek either to reinforce those parts or keep those parts less exposed when the time comes, think about it).
Using the logic and reason you&#8217;ve already taken so to heart, steel yourself and do what you&#8217;ve resolved to do.
. . . Still sounds a little uncomfortable, eh? Well then if it&#8217;s like that it might be like jumping into a pond where the water is livable but just a little too cold at first. If you slip in really slow you&#8217;ll get to suffer the cold from one end to the other as you submerge and it&#8217;ll be tough. Only difference is, this isn&#8217;t like jumping in. . .it&#8217;s jumping out.
Don't just swish your toes and wonder if you wanna. . . step boldly up to the edge and jump! (out!)<p>OK. . .it was long, but it wasn&#8217;t a sermon!
I hope that you encouraged, and I hope that it encourages you even more to know that (though I am no one to you) you have got my confidence that you&#8217;ll succeed.<p>Be well

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Hi dj, just wondering how you are doing today?<p>Juanita

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Well, I feel so hollow and empty inside and miss him terribly; but I am trying to be strong. In spite of everything, I don't know how I can face life without him. All of your replies help so much. My apology for this long thread, but I want to respond to what a few of you have said.<p>Its been almost a week since I've heard from him (which is probably good, maybe he decided to avoid the unpleasant situation of telling me we're through). Maybe OW2 is his priority now, like I used to be...and that is what hurts so bad. I can accept him being with his family, as that is where he should be, but not with her.<p>Hoping4future, thank you for sharing the locket story; it is beautiful. I guess some things that happen in life could be a blessing in disguise; for better things may be waiting....I wish I could believe that to be true in my case.<p>Yes, my MM knowingly gave himself to his wife years ago; and had 2 kids with her. I've been trying to analyze things. He often said that he was a "geek" in high school, not popular and never dated. He only had 1 girlfriend before he met his wife. When that relationship ended, he was very hurt. Soon after, he met his future wife. I got the impression that he really wasn't ready for marriage, but she came along, found him vulnerable and a good catch. Perhaps his "curiosity" for women now (he is 42) is his way of finding what he missed before marriage. Whatever, that is not the issue here.<p>Juststartingover, thank you for your references to those helpful links and books. I was already familiar with the MB link on Ending the Affair. I agree that avoiding contact by the somewhat drastic measures listed would be best; however, they are impossible for me. Your suggestion of a No Contact letter sounds great and I may attempt it. I also need to remove many of those triggers at home, as you have done. As you say, it is a vital part of closure. But it must hurt before it can heal. Good luck with your situation and recovery. I wish the best for you!<p>ILMF, your encouragement was welcome, as were your kinds words. I suppose I did cultivate my feelings of love for this guy. Now I just need to un-cultivate them!! I do understand your point that when I meet that more viable guy who may be out there, I will begin to cultivate love for him as much, if not more than what I feel now. I do hope that will be true.<p>As for the "purpose" of what happened....I'm still thinking on that one, but haven't come up with any sensible answer other than the fact that I was so stupid to get involved, when I knew better. I let my feelings get in the way of logic, reason and strength. Your confidence in me is encouraging and I thank you!!!!!<p>Everyone who is offering their advice, encouragement and support are wonderful!! It means so much to me!<p>Juanita, reading your replies, I feel I have found a special friend who has shared the same feelings of love, confusion and pain of this humbling experience. So much of what you have said is very true for me also.<p>My reason for getting involved was the same as yours....that strong power he had which controlled me. I felt possessed by him. Would you believe I even ran errands for him when he asked, so he could use that time to spend with me instead?? I would change my plans in an instant or miss work for a chance to be available to him. He knew I could never refuse him.<p>But, one difference was that I didn't know my MM until the one day (2+ yrs. ago) when he walked into my life and I was hooked! That is the funny thing....as soon as we met it was like we knew each other forever; we instantly bonded. We were never "strangers"; in a sense it felt like we knew each other from a previous life, or something....very weird!!! He agreed that we got along great and were so compatible. Since we enjoyed the sports, music, antiques and more, we had lots to talk about...so why not spend "innocent" time together as friends? We went to antique auctions and sporting events. (We even took his kids...they knew me as "Dad's female friend".) The kids liked me and we always had a great time. To me, it was like being in heaven...spending time with a guy I loved and his kids. He enjoyed the compansionship...even the kids would say that "Mom wasn't interested in things Dad likes to do," and she rarely went along on family outings.<p>Then one day, he began instigating more...and it just seemed so natural to become physical. The feeling was so beautiful, real and perfect. Everything happened so easily and naturally for us. <p>I agree with your thought that love could never be wrong. Our love for these guys wasn't wrong...the guys were! But we went into it with our hearts...not to hurt anyone or to destroy a marriage. And, as you said, we're both better off without them.<p>This indeed was a humbling incident and believe me, I've gone down a few pegs also!!! Like you, I've always had strong morals, values and beliefs. Marriage and committment are important to me and I never had a good opinion of those who strayed. But somehow I got myself tangled in this web of love, deceit and pain....<p>Your point about my MM being a serial cheater really hit home. I never considered that, but it seems so true. Yes, he does appear to have serious problems. I don't think he'll ever stop having a curosity for women. When he first told me about OW2, I was devastated....but he kept telling me that it wasn't ME....it was HIM....that I did nothing wrong to cause him to want involvement with someone else, and he is very happy with what we have. He assured me that he is not bored with me, he cares about me and wants our friendship to continue. But, he will NOT refuse the chance to become physical with her, if she agrees.<p>I should hate this guy with a passion...but I can't. I never want to see him hurt, but I keep hoping that she will refuse him. But, she might fall under his spell like I did. With one look at those intense eyes of his, she might become just as gullible as me. I do hope and pray she is able to say NO, although it will hurt him. And, like you said, he doesn't deserve an honorable break-up, but I just can't hurt him.<p>On the other hand, I love him so much that if being with her makes him happy, then I want that too. Oh, what is wrong with me??? Why can't I just hate him....it would be so much easier....<p>When he told me all this, I'm ashamed of what I did....it was so DUMB....I told him that I will still welcome him back if he still wanted me....whether he had been with her or not!!!! It didn't matter to me, as long as I could still have him. (And this is a guy who doesn't even love me....WHY, WHY, WHY did I do that???) Is there any hope for me??? <p>Maybe my situation is beyond control. I will try my best to do the right thing. I just miss him so much that I don't care anymore. I think of him constantly and cry.<p>As I've said before, it helps so much to be able to share this and get advice and support. Everyone on this site is the GREATEST!! I can't thank all of you enough!!!!!

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(((((djmb))))<p>No screeds from me tonight. I feel your pain. Grieving is a natural part of losing anything we love, and the greater the love, the greater the loss. It's okay to take time out just to feel your feelings and validate them. <p>Sometime ago, on In Recovery, there was a very valuable thread going on a similar theme - grieving the loss, which is like death, and the stages of denial, bargaining, anger, acceptance and guilt. I think it was Leilana who posted it, and that it was on Resentment. Between us all we got some really great resources together - books, websites and the like. Unfortunately I lost my bookmarks when I was cleaning up my screen and hit delete by accident on the marker I did want to keep! I'll see if I can find it for you.<p>Have you ever read "Women Who Love Too Much?" by Robin Norwood. <p>Hang in.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Is there any hope for me??? <hr></blockquote><p>Of course there is. You're here honestly seeking help and guidance, aren't you?<p>As for how you can go on, you'll just have to learn that one, and it's hard. I've been there.<p>I once was talking to an aquaintance in a bar. He said how important it was to find a man you can't live without. I disagree. I've been with too many men that I thought that I couldn't live without, turned out that I could - quite comfortably, given time. It is much more difficult to find someone you can live WITH. <p>You do deserve someone who will love you for you, and to have your own committed relationship and family with. That's why it's so good that MM is out of the picture. You will never find what you need and deserve as long as you are focusing your attention on MM.<p>Hang in there! *virtual hug*

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DJ,<p>After my break-ups, I would be sad and hurt, but after a while, I would begin to see what a jerk some of the guys I was with were. As the feelings of love fade, you will see. I had a boyfriend that I "loved". I loved him for years and even after I got married (did I already tell you this?), but I hated him at one point and now, I have little more than indifference for him.<p>On de-cultivating...to do the same with a garden, you just leave it and let it get over-grown. That's what no contact will do for you. He won't promise you he's sorry. He won't melt your heart with that look. But, you must maintain no contact. If you change your number, try to get it unlisted or he might be able to find you. You must do these things. Right now you do care, that's why you're here. If you have contact, you might not care so much. End it for good RIGHT NOW.<p>HTH,<p>Hoping

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