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DJ<p>gloryb.com<p>This is the cakeman artical by Dr. Roger A. Rhoades<p>It works!!! I've never tried this before [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: gottruth? ]</p>

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Hi DJ,
Well, lots of good suggestions coming your way. Are you trying to apply any of them to your life yet? I know, you still love him , and that is okay. I agree with Juanita, love him, not what he does. I still love MM beyond imagination.But I deserve better. You deserve much better. My only regret in my A was that I was not stronger sooner to end it.
I know what you are saying about believing everything he told you. My MM used to come visit me at work, bringing me coffee and the most beautiful love letters ( he wrote those daily).In them, he always talked about our future together, how incredibly he adored me,how we were going to retire together and travel the world. I bought into EVERY word.Now, I do not think he lied to me. I think he was WILLING to give me all that, but was not ABLE. Well, he should not have made all those promises to my heart.So, I can still love him, but not what he did to my heart.
I wish there was some way to let you know that there is life after all this.Four months,and I feel stronger with each day. Now, I have not laid eyes on him in that time, so seeing him may destroy me, But I am feeling stronger to resist him every day.
A book that helped me in my week following break up whan all I did was cry, was "Get Over It" by Sue Ostler(1998).It is described as 'the break-up girls ultimate survival kit'. It made me laugh, at times cry.But it gave me such power in my decision to end it. I still pick it up every other day to rejoice in being a single babe!!!
But you have to start somewhere. Draft up a "no contact" letter, maybe you are not quite there to send it yet, but write it as if you mean every word.And make it final, no turning back. It was hard for me not to go on and on in my letter.I do like to talk.But say what you mean, be kind but firm.I am sure many of us here can help you draft up a letter, if you need a little help.
And change that email password girlfriend! He has too much power over you already.
And you know what, if it was meant to be, it will be.I always believed that.<p>Hope you are doing okay. And by the way, it is okay to cry, give yourself permission to let it all out.Once I stopped supressing the tears, I started to feel in control again.
I hope I did not get too preachy for you.I do not mean to.You just need to understand that some of us were EXACTLY where you are.We survived, we got stronger.You will also, once you start to believe in yourself and the power you have to control your own life........... oh, oh, I am starting to sound like Dr.Phil..........help!!!!<p>Hope to have an update on how you are doing soon. Alot of us care about you.<p>Mary

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DJ,<p>You asked why you can not be angry with this man. I think the answer is obvious. It’s because he is acting in character.<p>At some point he told his wife that he loved her, she was his soul mate, the she was the only one who understood him, he could not live without her, and promised to be faithful to her.<p>At some point he told you that he loved you, you were his soul mate, that you are the only one who understood him, he could not live without you, and he promised you some sort of fidelity. All the while he was trying you on for size and kept his wife just in case it did not work out with you.<p>Now he is seeing someone else. The relationship is blooming. He is starting to tell her that he loves her, that they are soul mates, that she is the only one who truly understands him, he could not live without her, and he is promising her some sort of fidelity. All the while he is trying her on for size and keeping you and his wife in the wings in case it does not work out with her.<p> His wife is the one person in his life who he should treat the best. He has cheated on his wife with you. So why would he treat you, or anyone else, any better then he treats his wife?<p>How could you be angry and anyone for acting within their own character? You are being realistic by not being angry with him. This is exactly the life you can expect with him. It is the life any woman can expect with him.<p>The one you should be angry with is yourself, for putting yourself through this hell. You deserve so much more. Stay a way from this man, he is poison for you.<p>As for giving his wife a copy of HN/HN, a copy of “Surviving an Affair” would be the first one I’d suggest for her. But oh, how could you visit her, really? Perhaps you could just mail her the books and spare her the humiliation of a visit from you. I am sorry if that sounds mean, but I think it would be very hard to have had one of my H’s OW’en give me advice on how to save my marriage.<p>Have you read “10 Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives” by Laura Schlessinge? It’s a good quick read and might put a lot of things into perspective for you.

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dj, where are you? How are you doing?

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DJ<p>If you caved you can start all aver again. People get second chances. <p>I hope for yourself that you did not cave but even if you did, we care about you.<p>mom [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

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You can have all the affairs you want, and talk to these people about it all day but if you decide you do not want to bear and raise children, you will be personally and terribly flamed and nearly chased off this board. So go ahead and work this affair thing out and people on this board will support you but make sure you tell NO ONE if you decide you DO NOT WANT TO BEAR AND RAISE children! That is worse than SIN to these people. You can be nearly "killed" for that on this board.

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Oh things are not going well....I still haven't talked to him to end it. Our paths do cross sometimes, and I saw him both last night and tonight on my way home from work. He gave me a beep and that big smile and wave. It was devastating! I've been crying ever since....<p>I don't know if I can make it without him....I just wish I could die and be re-born as someone he will love....but that probably wouldn't happen. I really do need him in my life....its just not the same without him.<p>Juststartingover, it seems like I do play the role of surrogate wife, and I know that's wrong. No, I don't have access to his email accounts. It never bothered me that he had access to mine, I've got nothing to hide from him. He already knows way more than he need to know about me.<p>I have to agree that he's not worthy of my trust, or anyone else's, for that matter. I've seen arrogance at times, too (not often). So why is this the guy I've fallen head over heels for????<p>As for OW4, I'm hoping she will refuse him to save herself the pain I'm going through, if she should find herself in love with him too. It will hurt him if nothing develops with her, and I don't EVER want him hurt. I don't want him with her, but at the same time, I don't want her to hurt him by refusing him. I don't even know if I make sense anymore....I'm sorry if I don't.<p>And, I'm ashamed to say, but he is SO important to me that I would probably still take him back, no matter how many women he's been with....that scares me....why do I feel that way. I'm not that dumb or desperate....I deserve much more than he can ever give me.<p>Gottruth?, what can I say?? The Cakeman article is unbelievable! It describes him exactly. Thank you so much for sharing it!<p>My Mom doesn't say much about my situation; but I'm not sure if she is aware of just how deep it is. But, maybe she just doesn't want to admit that I could really be involved in such a horrible thing. What I've gotten into defies all of my principles, values, beliefs, morals and religion. No one I know would EVER suspect me of getting into something like this. It is just NOT me....but then again, I"ve never met anyone like HIM before.<p>Thank you for your words of wisdom. The "relationship" has focused on HIM totally...and I wanted it that way. Now, maybe the time has come for ME. I appreciate your encouragement and support.<p>MaryRN, I have been trying to apply everyone's advice and it is helping to build my strength. But after seeing him 2 days in a row, I'm not sure I can do this....but I have to.<p>You are lucky to not see your MM. I just want to hear his voice so bad. Since we had daily contact (emails and phone calls) for 2-1/2 years, the past month without much contact has been so very hard. I don't want to lose him, but I know it has to end. (Last month his wife figured out his password and knew about our contact...she insisted he stop, as she now reads everything.)<p>Unlike your MM< mine never really promised me anything. (I think he knew better.) HE was just "there". It was so comforting to know that he was always thinking of me (and let me know by little suprprise messages on my answering machine, daily emails, calling me from his vacation, and the little "thinking of you" gifts, etc.). It was just those little things he did that made me fall in love with him. So, I do love HIM, but I do not love what he did to me or his family.<p>Zorweb, looking at the whole picture, it is plain to see that this guy's character is less than desirable. And, I'm angry at myself for falling into his trap. And yes, he is poison....but why is he poison that I want to take so willingly and feel I need?????<p>His wife and I know each other somewhat. She knows who I am and that her H and I are "friends" (and, I suspect she knows how friendly). I would never visit her intentionally or do anything to humiliate her, or hurt her....I've done enough of that already.<p>I definitely need to put a closure on this "relationship" and begin healing. In spite of what he is, I want him in my life so bad...and that is not right. I DO deserve better!!!!!<p>We didn't plan for any of this to happen. It just happened naturally (which made it seem even more "right"). But, this was a choice we made willingly, because there was something missing in our lives. We filled those empty spots with each other. I wouldn't say it was a mistake....just a bad choice. You can't believe how empty I feel now....<p>A short note to Baba2, as far as kids....he is the only guy I've ever met that I would want kids with, if we could.<p>Well, thanks for reading....sorry for the long post. I'm trying to hang in there.....

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Hi again DJ,<p>Sorry for your pain. And I can picture me writing the same letter when MM and I finally see each other face to face. But I made closure, and I get stronger each day, so I am hoping I never have to write a similar letter. I KNOW it hurts.But you have to start somewhere for closure to begin.Everything you had with him is still hanging in the air. He has no idea that you are considering dumping him( sorry, "letting him go" worked better for me).<p>Something that helped me when I felt weak, when I would start to write him a big apology letter, or type up an email, was to equate him to cocaine or alcohol.As a nurse, I know the danger that one taste of those to an addict is . And we are addicted to our MM. That is reality. And you have to treat it as such to avoid relapse.The power of his touch and his affection is strong, so you have to be stronger than your addiction.<p>I hope you get through this.You will feel better, just take it one day at a time.<p>Take care........ Mary

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dj...i really like MaryRN,s analogy with the drugs, it IS an addiction. and remember, natural doesn't always mean right....hurricanes are natural, but look how destructive they are. you just come when you feel weak...you can do this. how about a little vacation....say a couple of weeks, just to get away from him for a while so you won't see him.....chang your environment...go see an old friend....sometimes it helps give you a new perspective.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
<strong>I don't really feel as if God is punishing me...I'm just trying to find the point of it all. Maybe it was just a learning experience...and I agree that it is possible to change my life around....and I hope I can stay strong enough to do that!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Djmusicbox,<p>I loved this!
It's been four days since you wrote it, and I've been on other threads so I had some catching up to do, but this statement from you (among others) was grand!<p>You've gotten so much help and advice from so many people who are smarter and wiser than "me" on these accounts that there's really nothing I could possibly add...<p>What an amazing case though! Inspiring, really - "suitable for framing" comes to mind.
...All you have to do is the "final finish" (figuratively and literally) and this will be a complete work of art!<p>One of the reasons that "I" can't possibly add anything of practical worth is that from reading all your thoughts you've put in here, it appears clear to me that you are all-the-way there on the black & white of things... only still struggling with the subjective element of "feelings".
Geez... and to think you put yourself in the spot you did signing in with your brutally honest initial post - What a great deal of favor and respect you've earned! Seriously - it strikes me that you must be an absomoshonuffevahmore fantastic personality, and DEFINITELY warrant a better companion than MM could ever be for you.<p>I was looking at your thoughts on how he seemed so wonderful to you, even though you've so honestly faced the reasons why he can't be quite the best package... wonderful in some regards, this fellow most certainly must be - most certainly IS as far as you can tell. (Basically, I believe you is what I am getting at)
But for crying out loud! Aren't YOU wonderful?!?!? (OK, I'm stretching it with a guess here, but I do get a very good impression of you as far as your basic "nature")
Honestly... quit feeling the water with your toes and dive off (or out, or whatever... I made some illustration to that effect a week ago, or so)
Cutting this fellow off might be kind of like an "ectomy" with no anesthesia, but when he's gone you'll be a lot better off. (It's some kind of "tumor" analogy, this time....)<p>To be more current, I think that Starfish's thoughts on "addiction" seemed to be very worthy.<p>Put the final finish on this... I want to frame it, but it's a work not quite complete.<p>Good wishes, be well

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
<strong>He recently told me that he cares about me a great deal, but does not love me.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Djmusicbox,<p>I was just perusing the original post again, and this just jumped up and poked me right smack-dab in the eye...<p>A refresher - kind of beside the point, really since he's someone else's husband
...but (as mean as it seems to draw this forward to focus on) it seems to be important, and maybe just a good 'negative' to help motivate you to perform the excision. (I decided to go with the tumor thing, since YOU are apparently an otherwise pretty healthy spirit)<p>do be well

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ilmf....lol i LOVE the tumor analogy...ectomy...hehe<p>and i'd love to take credit....but the addiction analogy was MaryRN....figures coming from a nurse!<p>come on dj....just do it!

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by baba2:
<strong>make sure you tell NO ONE if you decide you DO NOT WANT TO BEAR AND RAISE children! That is worse than SIN to these people. You can be nearly "killed" for that on this board.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>baba2,<p>You're obviously not kidding - THIS just jumped out at me and really surprised me.
(I'm a definite pro-have-kids person, and my three are the grandest gift I'll ever have under the sun, but I also know people who don't want kids, don't have kids, never will, and they're darn fine people and very happy... to each his own, I reckon)
Shhhhhhhhh..... but I don't want to derail the great thread that THIS one is - could you please link something or bump something so I can see the thoughts in whatever thread someone got burned in for not wanting kids?<p>shhhhh..... no more about that topic in this thread from me though
thanks!

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Hi DJ,
Glad to see you back, and relieved to know that you haven't slipped. For your sake, because though it hurts every day you make it through without contacting him or listening to his voicemail just to hear him speak is a day that you are growing stronger. It's easier to move towards a positive instead of away from a negative, so instead of seeing it as one more day without him, could you do something you've always wanted to do? Sign up for a class, join an exercise group, reading circle, whatever! Give yourself a series of small achievable goals for things you WANT to do and reward yourself for each one.<p>DJ, you love this man, but love is definitely a two-way street. Sorry for the cliche!! Think about it; all your actions have been about love, all his have been about self-gratification. He wants trust and honesty from you to the extent of demanding and getting your email password. He does not give you his in return... He demands sexual fidelity from you, yet you know he is faithful only to himself. As Al Capone said of the Kennedys: "They see women like dogs see lamp-posts. Gotta pee on every single one." It makes him feel good to have you on a string, and he probably enjoyed the little emails, voicemails, little surprise gifts. Quick, easy, no personal cost to himself.<p>I'm deeply concerned by your saying that you want #4 to give in to MM so he won't be hurt. This amounts to saying that she should allow herself to be abused and violated so he can continue to gratify his ego regardless of the cost to anybody else. He wants, therefore he must have? No, DJ. NO. <p>Anyway, it's way beyond time for you to stop looking at him and start looking at yourself. Who are you, what do you stand for, what do want from life? You mentioned His Needs, Her Needs. Have you filled out the questionnaire on your own behalf? My fear is that you read the book and used it to work out what HE wanted, so you could give it to him. Be honest when you do the questionnaire. Try not to let your idealised notion of who this man is colour your responses to the questions. You personally, that essential DJ, what do you want? I know you're crying out "I want MM!" Not so, you want the way you feel when your needs are being met, even partially. <p>I went onto the Oprah site today for the first time, and was converted. Do you know this site? I was just blown away by Dr. Phil, by his commonsense and straight talk. The most important relationship you will ever have is with your self. But who is this self? I particularly liked his approach with the 10 Life Lessons.... I read through how he applied them to a weight loss programme, and wow, I saw the application instantly to love relationships! To me, particularly, as a codependent. And the workbook approach is good. Ten phases, say 10 weeks, allow 20. Thinking out loud, forgive me if you know all this already.<p>Stay strong, for you, DJ. There are lots of us pulling for you. Despite Baba2! I don't care whether or not you ever become a mother. I have a passion though about people becoming their authentic selves.

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"We didn't plan for any of this to happen. It just happened naturally (which made it seem even more "right"). But, this was a choice we made willingly, because there was something missing in our lives. We filled those empty spots with each other. I wouldn't say it was a mistake....just a bad choice. You can't believe how empty I feel now...."<p>Me again! I hit send and then remembered this.<p>DJ, I hold by my original contention that you are projecting yourself onto this guy, and that is why you love him. In your first post, you said how you believed for 2 1/2 years that he loved you, because you loved him and you were sure he felt the same. You were not only hurt but really shocked when he said he doesn't love you, cares for you and values your friendship, but is out the door to chase up #4 for sex. It's what BSs hear all the time "I love you but I'm not in love with you....."<p>This bit of your post I've quoted is full of "we." IMO, you should be replacing "we" with "I". <p>You didn't plan for the A to happen - he did. Just as he is deliberately planning for A#4 to happen. Investing a lot of time and effort into it, actually.<p>You said "It just happened naturally." Measles also happen naturally.<p>You said "This was a choice we made willingly, because there were empty spots in our lives. We filled those empty spots with each other."<p>Again, you can only speak for yourself. This man makes a habit of indulging himself. He has all that he needs, which is why he hasn't divorced his wife. There are people who want that little extra luxury, that extra whipped cream on the pie. We call them gluttons when it's food they overindulge in....<p>What I'm trying to say, rather clumsily, is that you were looking to him to meet your NEEDS. He was using you for his WANTS. Advertising people will tell you that people will do anything to gratify a want, even neglect a need.<p>I would believe how empty you feel now, just as any of the BSs who respond to you do. We know from our own experience just how empty one feels. We're empty because we didn't count ourselves worthy without somebody to give ourselves to. In general, BSs are self-less givers, which is not a compliment. You are like a BS in terms of your complete devotion to MM, who has deceived, betrayed and violated you in the same way he has done to his W and probably his previous OW. <p>It's like the parable of the house exorcised of the demon, where the owner cleans, sweeps and decorates. The devil comes back, finds the house all pretty and EMPTY, and moves back in, bringing 7 friends worse than himself.<p>You need to be full of YOU, which is completely different from being full of yourself!<p>Hang in there, DJ. You have a lot of people pulling for you, you're not alone.<p>[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: juststartingover ]</p>

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DJ<p>You said that he never promised you anything. He always told you that he loved his wife and kids and that he would never leave. He said that he was always HONEST with you.<p>Well, DJ, if you study language and comunication you will discouver that 90% of the way we comunicate is non verbal.90%!!!!
<p>We can say anything we want but the truth is in what we do. He has lied to you in his actions.<p>DJ, think about all the things he has told you. "your my soule mate", "I wish I had met you first", "you complete me", I don't need the complete list. He has lied to your heart<p>One minute he tells you that you can not expect anything form him.
The next minute he is fantasizing about what it would be like if you were together.<p>Please understand that these are lies too. <p> He made promises to your heart.The worst kind of lies. The kind that he knew he could never and planned never to fullfill.<p>He makes the grounds rules clear. Then he gives you HOPE.<p>Honesty?????????????

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DJ,<p>I have been following this thread and it pains me to see the struggle you are going with. As someone who has had an EA with someone about 6 years ago I think I can provide some perspective from the MM perspective. Even though I can tell you are totally in Love with him, as a MM who has had an EA, I can see a side of him that I think you are too blind to see.<p>Considering he has openly admitted that he doesn't love you, yet he does all of the right things that make you love him, this should be a major sign for you. He is using you and playing you like a fine instrument. He has discovered his power to control OW through his actions and personality. I can guarantee you that much of his pleasure is in having CONQUERED you. I believe that men like this like the conquest, but don't like the responsibility of a real relationship. I'm sure he conqured his wife at one time also, and wouldn't be surprised if she felt the same as you do. Don't assume that his W was always such a cold person as HE describes. He most likely has made her that way through his actions. Have you considered that?<p>You need to realize you are believing a BIG lie in this man. He isn't as great as he seems as anyone that would hurt someone else (wife and kids) would also hurt YOU. Let's just suppose that he did decide to leave his wife and marry you (which he won't). The whole relationship would change because he would have conquered you and there would be no reason to continue with all the wonderful things he does. He would then go on to conquer someone else, and then someone after that. He has a major problem. If you can just realize it's all a lie, I think you could move on.<p>Obviously you are capable of deep love for someone. This is a quality that is good for a balanced relationship, but terrible when you are with a serial Adulterer. Save this quality to love for someone that deserves it before your heart is hardened to the point of not being able to Love again. This is about your well being.<p>Be strong and you will grow stronger in time.<p>Good luck

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I am sorry for your pain. I know this will sound strange, but maybe you can look at this latest OW as a gift. If he's willing to spread himself so thin to be with so many woman, maybe somebody is trying to prove to you that he's just not worthy of your time, effort or emotions.<p>Also, he is seriously risking his wife's health as far as stds go. I didn't know until my H had his affair, but there are 6 stds that can be spread through oral sex alone. <p>Stay away from him. Go to counseling and work on yourself. You'll be glad you did

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dj....i have been following and commenting from the beginning....look at how many people have shown up to give you support....you can do this!!!

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DJ,<p>From the sounds of it, you are in what I’d call a destructive, addictive relationship. I read part of a book once about the mechanism that sucks people in to this type of relationship. What struck me the most about what I read is that there is actually a physiological reason this ‘addiction’ happens and why it is so hard to break. When a man and woman become physically intimate, their bodies produce a hormone that the book called the ‘bonding hormone’. It’s name started with the letter ‘o’ but I cannot recall its name. The book went on to say that women produce more of this hormone then men do so we become more strongly bonded then the man does. <p>Once this hormone starts to flow. When we are intimate with the man, our bodies produce even heavier doses of this hormone. The book says that it is very hard to end such relationships because the withdrawal, caused by the levels of this hormone decreasing in our bodies, actually hurts physically and emotionally. <p>Dr. Harley suggests that people who are in withdrawal from such a relationship benefit from antidepressants. Have you considered seeing your doctor for this? Reading your posts, it does sound like you are in either some sort of a depression or on an emotional roller coaster. It might help you weather this storm and do what is good for YOU.<p>I searched amazon.com on “addictive relationships”, several books came up that looked interesting. One in particular seemed to specifically address the physiological aspects of addictive relationships, “False Messengers: How Addictive Drugs Change the Brain”.<p>Hope this helps you in some way.

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