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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you Indie and Goody2Shoes! I do find it bizarre how WH seems to be so desperate to retain control of me, and wants to make his presence felt in my life, but obviously doesn't want to actually make any changes that would have enabled him to keep his family.


The good news is that he's predictable and blinkered. He's grown up in a family culture where women are deliberately kept busy and miserable so they can't intervene in affairs. This only works in situations where women have no recourse.

He's genuinely at sea now. He has no idea that continuing to cause you trouble will only get himself in hot water now.

Wow. You are really perceptive. Yes, I can see he is totally confused. He doesn't understand why I am not kissing his feet, even when he has presented himself to me suggesting that he is now "willing" to receive my love again, after all the awful things I have done rotflmao

He's like a one-trick pony. But his trick doesn't work now that I am exerting my power, which he didn't know I had. I realised just recently that it was me who gave him the power to treat me so badly for all this time - because I was willing to give so much and fight so hard for the dream of a "complete" family. Now that I realise my family can be happier and more complete without him living with us, he doesn't have any power over me at all. He doesn't have anything to offer that I want.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you Indie and Goody2Shoes! I do find it bizarre how WH seems to be so desperate to retain control of me, and wants to make his presence felt in my life, but obviously doesn't want to actually make any changes that would have enabled him to keep his family.


The good news is that he's predictable and blinkered. He's grown up in a family culture where women are deliberately kept busy and miserable so they can't intervene in affairs. This only works in situations where women have no recourse.

He's genuinely at sea now. He has no idea that continuing to cause you trouble will only get himself in hot water now.

Wow. You are really perceptive. Yes, I can see he is totally confused. He doesn't understand why I am not kissing his feet, even when he has presented himself to me suggesting that he is now "willing" to receive my love again, after all the awful things I have done rotflmao


You can see how this might be welcomed by a woman who has no recourse. If she is unable to flee, she is forced to fight for her husbands love in continual competitions and is happy so long as he is not actively angry. If he expresses love, you're forced to be grateful he hasnt abandoned you financially. Your husband has grown up in a situation where betrayal is a way to actually make your wife grateful!

It's not just an African thing. There are plenty of family cultures on every continent who use this very effective trick of intermittent reinforcements.

I feel sorry for his complete and utter lack of perception though. He is truly a stranger a strange land today. That patronising letter he wrote about you not understanding how pineapples grow?! Did he realise he was talking about himself?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
You can see how this might be welcomed by a woman who has no recourse. If she is unable to flee, she is forced to fight for her husbands love in continual competitions and is happy so long as he is not actively angry. If he expresses love, you're forced to be grateful he hasnt abandoned you financially. Your husband has grown up in a situation where betrayal is a way to actually make your wife grateful!

It's not just an African thing. There are plenty of family cultures on every continent who use this very effective trick of intermittent reinforcements.

You are totally right. But the other aspect that I have felt myself is the confusing constant reinforcement by him and all his family of what a "perfect wife" is - and how I am it. A perfect wife is kind, patient, loving, devoted, a wonderful cook, does not socialise with other women (because they infect you with evil thoughts), does not go out (because that would be leaving children at home), appreciates everything her husband does for the household, does not embarrass him, does not ask him difficult questions, treats him like a king, is his number 1 cheerleader etc. All these things are drummed into women from birth by their female relatives, and their husbands then use this conditionning to keep their wives obedient. It is very difficult to identify manipulation and deceit when it is couched in flattery. There is such social pressure to be a "good" wife. It's not just about not having the power to run away, it is about being told that you already have everything all women want - you hit the jackpot! - so why would you want to? The only thing you need to do is stop looking for problems. Just before I plan B'ed by mother in law, she was shouting at me about how being a married woman gives me status, how i am already "someone", how I need to raise my husband as a mother raises a son, how I must "think of the children", and how if I just endure this behaviour for a while, it will stop and I will win in the end because I get to say I am his wife when we are old (lucky me, eh?!).

My WH pretty much always told me I was the perfect wife, and he was always coming home with jokes about his friends who he thought were hen-pecked or not man enough to have a household run as well as ours. His family reinforced that idea by telling me how much they loved me all the time, how he loved me, and leaning heavily on WH to marry me in the first place. Since I have always been a shy, introverted and very insecure person, I felt so grateful to have a partner (and family in law) that seemed to value the aspects of my character (bascially wanting to be at home, not being very sociable, liking cooking, and liking doing things for someone else) that I had found didn't fit too well in the dating scene in the UK. It took me a long time to wake up to the fact that I was not getting authentic love from him - because he always told me he was "so happy" and that he loved me. I would blame my slowness to cotton on to reality on the cultural difference, because I was much too willing to explain away the discrepancies between his words and actions than I think I would have been if he was from the UK.

I really couldn't understand why someone would say they love you and also go through with the whole marriage and children thing, if they didn't actually. So I just decided that he must, and the inner doubts I had about the "realness" of our relationship were just due to exhaustion/hormones/foreignness/stress/etc. But now I understand that I really was/am the perfect wife for him - because his idea of a wife was someone to take care of his domestic and social status needs, while leaving him with the money and freedom to do whatever he wants outside the house.

It is very satisfying to have taken that away from him wink

Last edited by chalkncheese; 12/27/17 03:12 PM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Quote
I have always been a shy, introverted and very insecure person

I think you're getting over it! And what a shock it must have been to him, and I'd bet still IS, to have all his lifetime Bag o' Manipulative Tricks suddenly stop working for him.

tl

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Originally Posted by thndrnltng
Quote
I have always been a shy, introverted and very insecure person

I think you're getting over it! And what a shock it must have been to him, and I'd bet still IS, to have all his lifetime Bag o' Manipulative Tricks suddenly stop working for him.

tl

Hahaha TL! Yes, I am getting over it laugh. I feel confidence now that I have never had - although I don't know why I didn't have it to start with. I just felt like I didn't know the rules to social situations, and that made me anxious. WH is extremely naturally socially skilled and I really admired that before I understood that it was manipulation and narcissism. But that's why I love MB so much. I feel like it has taught me the rules for life that I wasn't able to figure out on my own.

I don't think WH has really experienced the full extent of the fall-out yet. Because it has taken me 10 months to get a maintenance order - during which time he has been sending me a pitiful 15% of his salary for four kids - he has been thinking that he got himself a life of freedom, rolling in money, while I do all the hard work of raising the children. What could be better, from his perspective?! The only things he felt like he had lost up to now were a few home comforts. However, after a couple of months of having to send me 45% of his income, I think that bubble of his will burst big time. I can't wait rotflmao



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I thought you might find these interesting.

Radio Clip
Segment 2


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I thought you might find these interesting.

Radio Clip
Segment 2

Thanks a lot Brain Hurts! I did find them very interesting - but also sad. I really appreciate how the Harleys emphasise that it is not the culture per se that is to blame for affairs, because we are all susceptible given the right conditions, but it is depressing to see in this country how the culture definitely limits the tools available to women to demand, and fight for, better treatment in marriage. If men have so much opportunity for obtaining easy sex everywhere, and women want marriage so much they won't walk away from it no matter what they have to endure, why would husbands ever be faithful? There's just no reason for them to say no if they have the opportunity


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I really appreciate how the Harleys emphasise that it is not the culture per se that is to blame for affairs, because we are all susceptible given the right conditions, but it is depressing to see in this country how the culture definitely limits the tools available to women to demand, and fight for, better treatment in marriage.

Until fairly recently, women whose husbands did not treat them properly would make a quiet visit to the herbalist and that was the end of the matter. Now divorce has taken the place of poisoning (probably just as well).

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
If men have so much opportunity for obtaining easy sex everywhere, and women want marriage so much they won't walk away from it no matter what they have to endure, why would husbands ever be faithful? There's just no reason for them to say no if they have the opportunity


The serial affairee trades down. There are always plenty of candidates. My XHW chose ugly fat women who he knew would be grateful for his attention. There is probably more easy sex in the anonymity of a large city like NYC or London than in an African country where everyone knows one another's business.

My Ex FIL was a serial adulterer too, the apple does not fall far from the tree. His behaviour was a sordid family secret although of course his children knew exactly what was going on. Children are the best snoopers in the universe. Because his mother never fought for better treatment, XWH was taught that cheating was acceptable.

Ex MIL was from a good family with a PhD and inherited money of her own. She definitely had the tools to leave. The only thing that would have prevented his tom-catting would have been 24/7 supervision. As he was a world famous scientist that would have been tough but not impossible.


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It took me a long time to wake up to the fact that I was not getting authentic love from him - because he always told me he was "so happy" and that he loved me. I would blame my slowness to cotton on to reality on the cultural difference, because I was much too willing to explain away the discrepancies between his words and actions than I think I would have been if he was from the UK.

I really couldn't understand why someone would say they love you and also go through with the whole marriage and children thing, if they didn't actually. So I just decided that he must, and the inner doubts I had about the "realness" of our relationship were just due to exhaustion/hormones/


No I had exactly the same issues with a uk born husband, because his father's family was wayward and (unlike Dr Harleys family) the affairs were never exposed, but swept under the rug, passed on, normalised.

When you meet the child of an affair family you'd have to be one hell of a psychic to know that they've been raised to say one thing and do another. That they honestly believe you are supposed to tell people whatever they want to hear.

Added to this, they genuinely are in love with you (why wouldn't they be?) and aren't planning on having affairs. True, marriage isn't exactly the commitment it is to others (a habit of dishonesty gives a looooooot of freedom to look forward to) but they don't really have any idea what their habit of dishonesty is going to lead to.

This is why cowardice over exposure annoys me so much. Children, more than anyone need to hear an honest, moral account of this extremely common life problem. More than that, they deserve a true apology.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by living_well
Until fairly recently, women whose husbands did not treat them properly would make a quiet visit to the herbalist and that was the end of the matter.

That definitely still happens! But from what I have observed it is more common for women to conspire against other women in competition for the man, than to make the man the target.

Originally Posted by living_well
The serial affairee trades down. There are always plenty of candidates. My XHW chose ugly fat women who he knew would be grateful for his attention. There is probably more easy sex in the anonymity of a large city like NYC or London than in an African country where everyone knows one another's business.


Yes, I see that in my WH too. He choses women that are barely educated and earn nothing, so they will be wowed by him giving them 10 dollars for airtime. I guess my current predicament has given me a nostalgic rosy view of the UK, where I imagine that there is less opportunity for affairs. But my memories of London are from a different time (pre online dating apps) and in a different context. I've spent my entire married life in Africa, married to an African man, so I am totally culturally confused to be honest!

Originally Posted by living_well
My Ex FIL was a serial adulterer too, the apple does not fall far from the tree. His behaviour was a sordid family secret although of course his children knew exactly what was going on. Children are the best snoopers in the universe. Because his mother never fought for better treatment, XWH was taught that cheating was acceptable.

Ex MIL was from a good family with a PhD and inherited money of her own. She definitely had the tools to leave. The only thing that would have prevented his tom-catting would have been 24/7 supervision. As he was a world famous scientist that would have been tough but not impossible.

Yes, I know that 24/7 supervision is really the only way to stop this behaviour. When I was still thinking about the possibility of reconcilliation, I did an excel chart of risks and the extraordinary precautions that would be necessary to eliminate all of them. It was an eye opening exercise. Basically, WH would not be able to have a phone at all, nor a computer that I couldn't see, he could not have his own bank account, we would have to job-share or work together (physically in the same office, sharing email accounts; he could not have a skype account or any other instant messaging), I would have to be with him all the time, and we would have to have a clear strategy for how to deal with the problem of toilet trips and sleeping providing opportunities for him to communicate with other women out of my sight. Life would be a prison for both of us. And it would only work if he actively chose it for himself, because there's no way I could enforce a regime like that and be content in my life.

I don't think there is any set of conditions that would lead a man who is used to having everything he wants and controlling everything to choose such a life. Losing your home, your marriage, your kids, and 45% of your income is not enough of an incentive, I don't think. Dr Harley said in the radio segment BrainHurts posted a few posts ago that serial cheaters have to have some sort of "conviction by God" moment if they are to change. I want to believe that terrible behaviour must make a person extremely unhappy to that point - and in the case of WH, I would like him to change so that he can guide my boys as they grow up - but I doubt it will happen.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
When you meet the child of an affair family you'd have to be one hell of a psychic to know that they've been raised to say one thing and do another. That they honestly believe you are supposed to tell people whatever they want to hear.

Added to this, they genuinely are in love with you (why wouldn't they be?) and aren't planning on having affairs. True, marriage isn't exactly the commitment it is to others (a habit of dishonesty gives a looooooot of freedom to look forward to) but they don't really have any idea what their habit of dishonesty is going to lead to.

This is why cowardice over exposure annoys me so much. Children, more than anyone need to hear an honest, moral account of this extremely common life problem. More than that, they deserve a true apology.

Thanks Indie. Yes, I really see the positive effect on my kids of me having taken such clear firm action and the reinforcing the lessons with them about the rules of marriage, and the rules of how you treat other people in a decent way. OC burst into tears on Christmas day saying "why can't our papa be like other papas? They go away for work sometimes but not forever. Why can't he just stop having girlfriends?". Obviously, I felt sad that he is really struggling with the situation, but I also felt so proud that he articulated the problem so clearly, understood what the root problem was, and has a clear idea of how the situation should be.

I find people in general to be so timid about standing up for anything - and especially morally. There is so much conflict-avoidance and pressure to smile and get on with things, while leaving the people behaving badly to persue their selfish desires no matter who they hurt in the process. No wonder the world is so messed up!! Maybe 2018 will be better......


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I've been reviewing the events of the past year, and re-reading my thread, also observing WH's extremely bizarre way of talking and behaving (so many lies, manipulation, lack of remorse, indications that he has no empathy or emotion at all, etc), and am starting to think that he meets the clinical definition of a true psychopath. I would like to try to get him to undergo a forensic psychologist assessment as part of the divorce and custody process. Has anyone had any experience of trying to get these types of assessments of their spouses?


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by indiegirl
When you meet the child of an affair family you'd have to be one hell of a psychic to know that they've been raised to say one thing and do another. That they honestly believe you are supposed to tell people whatever they want to hear.

Added to this, they genuinely are in love with you (why wouldn't they be?) and aren't planning on having affairs. True, marriage isn't exactly the commitment it is to others (a habit of dishonesty gives a looooooot of freedom to look forward to) but they don't really have any idea what their habit of dishonesty is going to lead to.

This is why cowardice over exposure annoys me so much. Children, more than anyone need to hear an honest, moral account of this extremely common life problem. More than that, they deserve a true apology.

Thanks Indie. Yes, I really see the positive effect on my kids of me having taken such clear firm action and the reinforcing the lessons with them about the rules of marriage, and the rules of how you treat other people in a decent way. OC burst into tears on Christmas day saying "why can't our papa be like other papas? They go away for work sometimes but not forever. Why can't he just stop having girlfriends?". Obviously, I felt sad that he is really struggling with the situation, but I also felt so proud that he articulated the problem so clearly, understood what the root problem was, and has a clear idea of how the situation should be.

I find people in general to be so timid about standing up for anything - and especially morally. There is so much conflict-avoidance and pressure to smile and get on with things, while leaving the people behaving badly to persue their selfish desires no matter who they hurt in the process. No wonder the world is so messed up!! Maybe 2018 will be better......


I love this little guy.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I've been reviewing the events of the past year, and re-reading my thread, also observing WH's extremely bizarre way of talking and behaving (so many lies, manipulation, lack of remorse, indications that he has no empathy or emotion at all, etc), and am starting to think that he meets the clinical definition of a true psychopath. I would like to try to get him to undergo a forensic psychologist assessment as part of the divorce and custody process. Has anyone had any experience of trying to get these types of assessments of their spouses?


I would write to Dr Harley on that one, but honestly I haven't seen anything in his behaviour that isn't wayward. It is extremely bizarre behaviour as a general rule but I've seen people swear their spouse meets the criteria for Narcissistic personality disorder (they do too) but a week later following exposures the WS is behaving normally and doesn't even remember saying things. I'm convinced mid life crisis was termed in reaction to waywardism.

The qualities you list would apply to any wayward or addict. In my opinion the qualities which make your H a cut above the average are his breaking into your home, his violence, possibly sexually harassing his subordinate; but I have seen those traits with some waywards too. It makes sense that with his background and with so many affairs under his belt that he would be a particularly hardened example.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
The qualities you list would apply to any wayward or addict. In my opinion the qualities which make your H a cut above the average are his breaking into your home, his violence, possibly sexually harassing his subordinate; but I have seen those traits with some waywards too. It makes sense that with his background and with so many affairs under his belt that he would be a particularly hardened example.

Other than the violence, there is nothing that your WH is doing that I did not see in my XWH. I had a break in and massive theft. Also affairs with at least two secretaries at his office.

You have a wayward who cannot take responsibility for causing the breakdown of his marriage because it would be too painful for him. The sad thing is that, had he been able to do that, your marriage could have been saved (mine too).


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Thank you Indie and Living Well. That is actually extremely reassuring. I was just thinking back to a couple of incidents in particular - WH wanting to send 6 year old OC on two planes, across three international borders on his own in May because he couldn't be bothered to come and pick him up; and him not having any discerable reaction to his father's stroke (a father he always pretends to be close to and to respect) four months ago, not even going to visit him despite living in the same country and having a medical degree, which would put him in a position to help FIL obtain appropriate care - which made me focus on this lack of empathy/lack of emotion thing. But those thoughts made me very worried about the risks of my kids spending time with him, so I am much happier at the prospect of being married to a bog-standard, if habitual and unrepentant, wayward.

Yep Living Well, you are spot on: he is a pathetic coward who can't face what he has chosen to do.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I don't want to argue you out of your instincts if your fear radar has been set off. In fact I had a bit of a niggle when you said you wanted supervised visits but had been turned down. You know him and I trust your feelings on the matter. You don't need to diagnose him in order to be right.

He tried to keep OC from you, I wondered if you were afraid of his kidnapping the children. I also wondered if you'd disclosed his violence etc to the powers that be.

You can be bad without being mad. I don't know off the top of my head any wayward who has done anything worse than be a pisspoor parent, so I don't speak with any conviction. But h�s also quite a violent controlling man too. I just know that when you get a feeling it's not always ok to just ignore it.

Perhaps ask Dr H if any of the behaviours are concerning? I think it would be a useful point for other people too.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Gah, I mixed up An Affair To Remember and Now Voyager. I didn't mean to slander Cary Grants and Deborah Kerr's roles. They play a sweet couple. Guess I can watch it again!


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
I don't want to argue you out of your instincts if your fear radar has been set off. In fact I had a bit of a niggle when you said you wanted supervised visits but had been turned down. You know him and I trust your feelings on the matter. You don't need to diagnose him in order to be right.

He tried to keep OC from you, I wondered if you were afraid of his kidnapping the children. I also wondered if you'd disclosed his violence etc to the powers that be.

Thanks Indie. I am feeling extremely anxious today since it is supposed to be the day WH brings the children back and then leaves the country. My mind is running over all the awful things that he could do in the few hours that remain - and my options for reacting. He was 30 mins late to collect our daughter and it has made me really jumpy. I keep thinking what if he has driven away somewhere with the boys? I know where he is staying, but I do not have his flight booking information and I don't know the car hire company he used. As far as I know, I have the children's only passports, but he has frequently obtained forged "official" documents from Congolese authorities in the past, so it is a reasonable fear that he could have made Congolese passports for them or obtained emergency Congolese travel documents for them from the embassy in South Africa to enable a one-way trip.

However, the boys are not babies - and I don't think they would let their father take them to the airport without me being there.

I have told everybody about the violence and it is in the court papers. However, my lawyer was reluctant to apply for a restraining order in SA (I got one in the previous country we stayed in) because she said it would be viewed as an escalatory move on my part - and WH's lawyer already seems to be able to claim that I am litigious because of having to make several applications in the past few months in order to get money out of WH (they seem to ignore the fact that while the issue remained unresolved, and WH was not responding, I was forced into the position of pursuing all available legal options BY HIM) and that he keeps on claiming that I am preventing WH from seeing the children (which is not true).

We inserted supervised visitation into the application that was heard on Dec 20, but it seems like lawyers use these things as bargaining tools to hammer out an agreement with the opposing party rather than serious proposals (which was what I thought it was). There are no supervised vistation centres in South Africa and people (lawyers, judges) seem reluctant to acknowledge the logical consequence of knowing that WH's words mean absolutely nothing. I have actually been really surprised at how difficult it is to get the message across that we are dealing with a pathological liar here - and that understanding that fact demands and special and different approach when enforcing "agreements", even if they are in court orders.

My lawyer tends to say "but if he does anything, we can go back to court".....but that doesn't help me if my children are already across an international border in a lawless african country that favours fathers over mothers, does it?!

Basically, I feel that there is no limit to what he could do given that his past behaviour shows he will do things that are very traumatic for the children and not at all in their interests. But there are practicalities that might limit the feasibility of the worst options, even for a skilled manipulator and liar like him. And, at the end of the day, I am not sure that he really wants to have his fun bachelor life inhibited by having to raise four kids without their mother.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
You can be bad without being mad. I don't know off the top of my head any wayward who has done anything worse than be a pisspoor parent, so I don't speak with any conviction. But h�s also quite a violent controlling man too. I just know that when you get a feeling it's not always ok to just ignore it.

Perhaps ask Dr H if any of the behaviours are concerning? I think it would be a useful point for other people too.

Thank you for this suggestion. I will send Dr Harley an email with my main concerns and see if he thinks I am paranoid.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Jun 2011
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Better paranoid and safe. I'm a strong believer in planning for worst case scenarios. Anxiety is normal when your spouse rips off his Scooby doo skin mask and there's a stranger under there.

I see how the documents thing would rattle you. Any way you can alert border security staff, i think you did something like that before?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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