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Originally Posted by Mark_P
I see myself not as a blinkered person; I�m always researching and instinctively using or dropping methods or concepts mainly if I feel it�s counter-intuitive. The detaching and no contact for me are two areas� I feel are counter-intuitive and drive a wedge between both parties.

I agree "detaching" (using the 180) is counter-productive for betrayed husbands trying to save their marriages and that it drives a further wedge between the parties. However, at some point in time, "No Contact" (Plan B) becomes a necessary "wedge" in order for the betrayed husband (or any betrayed spouse) to withdraw and heal from the continuing abusive relationship. In essence, you Plan A your butt off for as long as you can and then, when that doesn't work, Plan B is necessary to preserve the last drops of love in the love bank in hopes that the affair will end eventually (and hopefully quicker - without your participation). You don't appear or sound any where close to Plan B yet so that leaves you in Plan A for the time being.



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�All the "Mr. Nice Guy" stuff is such pop psychology bullcrap�. < As I�m led to believe there are no guarantee�s with ANY strategy, I must admit some of the learnings I got from Dr Glovers thesis can be related to me and I will always use what�s useful�

�Being a nice guy really is ok. Jesus was a pretty nice guy himself�. I�m not religious and understand where you�re coming from BUT again not to the detriment of the guy! A WW is so disrespectful towards her doormat of a husband a balance needs to be found allowing equal respect not the husband putting his WW on a pedestal and allowing her to �call the shots�, eventually she will see him as being below her and justifies her right to look for a better partner who will stick up for himself.

Most wayward wives have affairs due to a weakness in character and wounds (often from their fathers) within them. Despite appearances - your wife isn't doing this AT YOU. Affairs have little to do with the behaviors of the betrayed husbands and your wife certainly wasn't "justified to look for a better partner". Betrayed husbands tend to take too much blame and ownership of their wive's immoral and hurtful choices and the wayward Dr. Glover feeds (and profits) off that by giving it a framework. Your wife was likely susceptible to infidelity because your marriage sucked at the time just like practically every other marriage involving young children and babies.

On the other hand, I don't think everything the guy has ever written is complete junk or without basis. I just think actual "nice guys" often miss the fact that Dr. Glover wasn't a "nice guy". He fancies he WAS a nice guy that married his ex-wife just to go along with the pomp and circumstance and that's what society wanted him to do but IN his marriage he was (and remains) a wayward selfish entitled monster who tries/tried to pretend to be a nice guy while passive-aggressively destroying his wife, family and marriage (with his penchant for having sex with women not his wives, in particular). I'm assuming you WERE passive-aggressive, like him, and you could/can do better on the whole conflict avoidance issue but on the whole, I think the concept of the love bank, the failure to meet each others emotional needs and protect your marriage along with the "giver and taker" concepts by Dr. Harley do a better job of explaining how you BOTH ended up where you are today. The Giver and the Taker Article



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Do you feel WW�s are respectful of their BH�s..?

NEVER. Having an adulterous affair is the most disrespectful thing a spouse can do to their spouse followed by gaslighting them with rationalizations and justifications that it's their spouse's fault



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You ask me about the OM, I�m not interested in him he doesn�t exist in my mind. He is married his wife knows about the affair, they have two children both under the age of 5 and he has moved out of the family home and into mine although not officially as officially he lives with his parents�
My WW is a safety manager at the same company as him where he is a quality assurance �person�!!!

Exposure has been sent to their place of work his and BW�s family and all friends.

I'm so very sorry this has happened to you. It's one of the main reasons we tell betrayed husband's not to move out. I understand you were in a difficult position and FELT one of you had to go and since she refused, you just went but, I THINK (not having been in this predicament myself) the pain and hurt of having the OM in my home outweighs the pain and hurt of being in my own home and enduring my wife going out all the time. I'm sorry to say I think you made the affair way to easy and comfortable and, in doing such, caused yourself far more pain and self-shame than you had to. In addition, giving in to her made you appear weak. If the situations had been reversed there's no way possible that she'd have been the one to move out. I know you've been hounded, scolded and shamed about that decision many times so I'm sorry to pile on. You're doing the best you can by your wife and family. I talk about it again to simply try to reinforce that you have made mistakes along the way such that you may be more open to abandoning your instincts to conflict avoid.


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What are his weak points? The point of his jaw if we were to come into contact. I don�t know him and have not even spared a second of my time thinking about him.

It might be interesting to address this question with Dr. Harley himself. He often advises betrayed husbands, in particular, to confront the OM in person as long as they can control themselves and avoid instigating a physical altercation. On one front, a wayward wife currently in the mindset of a high school teenager, often gets goosebumps over the idea of men fighting over her. She might pretend to act otherwise but the whole drama of fighting over her makes her feel loved and cherished by both men. If you win there IS a fight and you win, you appear strong and if you lose, your her baby daddy and family and she ends up feeling protective of you (the breadwinner for her children). On the other front, OM's are like cockroaches that scurry away from confrontation. Nothing like getting in his face and telling him that you love your wife and family and will do anything to save your wife for making the biggest mistake of her life. OM's tend to break up with women with angry husbands. Like I said before, he's practically single now and can date anyone.

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MrW what I do know is I can�t control my WW what she continues to do is hers and her decision alone, how can you affect their feelings for their �soul mate�? There is NOTHING I can do except show her she�s made a mistake by �letting me back on the market� and being the best Mark and husband/father I can be, this is where I am at the moment.

I agree there is a fine line to be walked between boundaries vs. manipulation and control but at the same time, if her husband won't even TRY to hold her accountable for her immoral, destructive and hurtful choices, who will? An element of the marital relationship (certainly biblical marriage) is to some level instructional. She isn't your girlfriend that can just do whatever she wants, at some point or points along the way you have to demand (even it's respectfully demanded as a calm and logically request) that she "honor" her husband and marital vows even if that makes her mad or hostile or feeling guilty (she SHOULD feel guitly). Just because you can't MAKE her do anything doesn't mean you shouldn't try or that you don't have the right to try. You say it's "her decision alone" but like a crack addict, she's really not up to the task of making any decisions right now. She's absolutely soul sick right now. Like all waywards you can, no doubt, see the deadness in her eyes (if you haven't look closer next time). She's at the lowest point in her life and even though she acts like she's perfectly happy and doesn't want you interferring, she NEEDS saving. At the very least, she needs continuing in this hell-hole she's chosen to be MORE difficult and NOT appeased by you. If she's going to "chose" anything, it won't be until the pain outweighs the benefits (or OM dumps her).


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MrW do you think my WW �visiting� our boys almost every night is making AP feel vulnerable? Do you feel when AP �visits� his children WW doesn�t feel vulnerable? Would this not sow that seed in them or are they STILL infatuated�
From time to time I do get the feeling that AP wonders why WW has taken so long at my place visiting the boys and I do feel she�s being controlled by him; I�ll give you an example. A while ago my WW and I were having a longer than usual civil conversation when her phone goes, she looks at whose calling and within a millisecond she�s saying her goodbyes� I could be mind-reading but don�t think so.

Yes. They won't admit feeling vulnerable to each other because that might hurt the "assoulmate" illusion but they are both KNOWN liars and cheaters (to each other) and their relationship is completely built upon lies and deceit. There is absolutely no foundation of trust or honesty. They both certainly see each other's betrayed spouse as a risk to their relationship. They also often use jealousy and suspicion against each other to get some extra attention. Other times the wayward wife has convinced the OM that her betrayed husband is abusive and hurtful so she can get tons of attention from OM thinking he's saving her and "protecting" her from her mean and controlling husband. I have no doubt your wife bolted out of there because she KNEW she was going to get a lecture from the OM if she 'lingered' around you too long. She'd at least have to make up a cover story (so much of the conversations in affairs revolve around the interactions and triangulation of the betrayed spouses - what they say, do and how to manipulate them). Further, OM's nearly universally feign protectiveness and possessiveness in order to "win" the girl, control the girl and to be the anti-hero that says: "I cherish and love you SOOO much that If you were my girl forever, I'd never let a guy like me interfere with our relationship, I'd kill him or die trying". It's bullcrap - they just say that stuff to get good sex.

Another thought. OM is also insecure because, from my understanding from skimming your threads, you are a man of much more wealth and prestige than him. So not only is he a lying, conniving adulterous man with no character and no self-respect - he's got to deal with being compared financially to you. I was in a somewhat similar situation and I made sure to communicate to my wife an exaggerated annual budget and cash flow (i.e. - HER spending) knowing that she's share everything I told her with the OM. She was completely unaware how bad, nervous and inadequate that would make OM feel (knowing he could never match that budget).




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Again we had a conversation about the boys and WW going to the pictures and WW complaining she couldn�t go due to a bad back, this was great for me as I deposited credits by saying to her that she needed to look after herself a bit better and understood why she cancelled the first date to take the boys pictures. We continued to talk civilly and I helped her with the boys stuff to the car, later I sent her a text �I was so tempted to ask if I could go pictures too lol. Hope you have a good time with them and you feel better soon� in response to that text I got this �Not an acceptable text� that�s it! The text just didn�t seem like WW, was this AP talking..? Again mind-reading will be my downfall

Your wife's love bank is 100% absolutely closed to you right now. As long as she remains in an active affair in any manner you can't "deposit credits". Her "not an acceptable text" was definitely for OM's benefit plus it is her way of keeping you from making her feel guilty or having/expressing any hope. It's ALL about her OM now. He's her focus and anything you do to enable or appease her addiction to OM will be accepted and, sometimes, rewarded with feigned manipulative kindness whereas anything contrary or opposing her relationship with OM will be met with hostility and rebuff. The SINGULAR goal of Plan A is to bust up the affair. Until the affair is over there is no marriage or semblance of a real "relationship" with you whatsoever.


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Initially, when the A started I did get in her face (being overly attentive) this just pushed her further away and towards him! Doing the same now would apply guilt which again would bring them together �us verses the world� mentality. I will continue to be the better and do all I can to deposit credit and definitely not withdrawal by being argumentative or angry.

She really can't go more "towards him" than she already is. Sure there is some triangulation effect that helps feed their relationship but them clutching each other in shame, in secret and in fear is much better than them dancing around in affair bliss as though you are just fine with the affair continueing. The affair SHOULD be hard and shameful. That's what makes it disintegrate. The trick is being attentive, distracting, engaging, confronting, trouble, time-consuming without them realizing it and without being needy or desperate seeming.


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What else can I do�?

Be strategic. Disengage from trying to read her mind and use logic or reasoning to accomplish your goal. What is your goal? Kill the affair. Get it to end somehow, someway. Understand her manipulative wayward mindset better and stop taking the bait or responding to it. Making her mad or upset is often a sign of progress. Sure, she may "no contact" you but that's actually better for you and forces the OM to have to meet ALL her needs. Like you said you can't MAKE her do anything. The cage door is wide open and you aren't her keeper. She is actually the one controlling you and keeping you around because it suits her. Whether you are her backup plan or just a convenient babysitter is beside the point. She's simply out of her mind and you are the only sane person remaining in this relationship. You don't argue with her or try to logic her but you do tell her she's wrong. That adultery cheating is wrong and if she feels guilty or ashamed of herself, she should. You should tell her that she's going to regret these choices she's continuing to make and that you are the better man for her. You say these things neutrally. You aren't beating her over the head with it because that doesn't work. She's obviously not going to respond to ultimatums but she needs to know the end game here is that you eventually won't see or speak to her ever again. Sure you'll always have kids together but that eventually you'll remarry and it would be disrespectful to your future wife for you to have anything to do with her - besides it's just healthy for you to get space from her for at least a few years should you divorce (read up on parallel parenting versus co-parenting in high stress divorce situations). She needs to have no doubt that you are still TRYING to save the marriage and retain HOPE for a successful reconciliation. She won't like that and may punish you for expressing it but that's on her. She needs to also have no doubt that your current behavior isn't permanent. She is behaving abusively and she's the one behaving controllingly and that you won't stand for that forever. It's a sort of ultimatum; but, unlike a real ultimatum, you don't look like a fool when you don't back it up because it provides flexibility and it's honest. You've endured her disrespect for so long it's not like she will believe any ultimatum you try to give her anyway. Oh, and the kids are certainly going to be aware that she cheated, you tried to save it, married people aren't supposed to have boyfriends and that OM is the guy that broke apart their family (they need to one day be afforded the information they need to protect themselves from someone that devastated their father AND mother AND them). It's healthy for kids to know the truth.


Other than that you try to come up with excuses and reasons to need to spend time together talking and communicating (meeting her need for communication while messing with her head - every minute with you or dealing with you is time away from OM and time OM might get mad or jealous about. It also will someday make the withdrawal from you much harder should it ever come to Plan B.

You find ways to make the affair harder. Cancel her cell phone. Cancel her credit cards. If her car is in your name, sell it. It's your house, install covert security cameras and monitor it (the more information you have the better you can fight). Hire repairman to "fix" something or remodel or change something and hire a family guy friend you trust or like to do the work and spy on her or, at least, make her feel spied upon and uncomfortable. After all, the house needs to be maintained and spruced up to eventually put it up for sale (disabuse them of the notion you are going to be ok with them just keeping it even if, eventually in any divorce you may decide that is the best plan - for now, no, it's going to be sold and they (the kids, her and OM) are going to have to move to something more affordable (that, perhaps, will be more affordable for OM???). GPS her car so you know where she is and you just show up - completely by accident - so you claim. When she goes nuts, you be the calm apologetic one and let her be the lunatic in front of her OM. If and when you come to find out OM needs to go out of town on business or your wife needs to go somewhere leaving OM behind, use your money to hire a private eye and entrap him "cheating" on your wife and pay to have it videotaped so you can prove it. Talk to OM"s wife and try to get intel or, at the least, mess with him. Give your wife misinformation about OM. She really doesn't know him or trust him so you'll be planting seeds of doubt and mistrust. Even if he denies it, she can't be certain (maybe you heard he used to smoke crack or deal drugs when he was younger). KNOW anything you say to her likely makes it to the OM so use that to your advantage. Tell your wife you're taking Krav Maga classes (Israeli hand to hand fighting) so she repeats that to OM. Give OM's wife a little misinformation about your wife figuring she'll repeat it to OM who will talk about with your wife and when it circles back to you deny it. Maybe talk to OM's parents again. Calmly, respectfully and apologetically, if not playing the victim (because you are a victim), just ask them if OM is actually living with them or staying at your home with your wife? Put them on the spot. Make them uncomfortable so they, hopefully, in turn, make OM and/or your wife uncomfortable. Your wife likely has hopes and dreams to be with this guy forever and have his parents someday be her adoring in-laws. The infidels might go nuts trying to make you into this bitter, angry, controlling and abusive soon to be ex-husband, but your conversation with them will be the exact opposite. They will hopefully come to not like your wife or her CRAZY involvement with their son. This woman is hurting THEIR grandchildren so there is a lot of mixed emotions at play there and your wife and OM are all about trying to manage appearances and ACT as though everything is great and everyone is OK with this arrangement when, clearly, YOU are not.

I know that all sounds extreme but you are at war for your wife and family. Your enemy is a lying conniving INFERIOR man-child interfering (and threatening) your family. You are better than him. Your wife is behaving like a fool and, obviously, not thinking clearly and you're tasked with helping her. All is fair in love and war. Beat him at his own game. Right now they are playing you the fool. Let them continue to think that while you attack their relationship and try to split them up.

You are fighting an uphill battle because you've appeased this affair for so long anything you do to oppose it is going to be very obvious, so start slow. Gather intel, talk to OM's wife, engage your wife in just idle chit chat and try to get her to "share" her feelings with you or even talk about the OM (as much as you'd hate to do that).

Finally, it's unfortunate you aren't religious. I was successful entirely due to the power of the Holy Spirit inside of me. I was able to do battle in prayer without my wife even knowing about it. We were and are "one flesh" so it stands to reason that He and I were able to personally engage, confront and rebuke the very demons that had overcome her. I don't envy a man in your position going into this very real battle against evil without Jesus on your side. If you are at all questioning your faith, how much more are you willing to lose to hold onto your disbelief?

Good luck.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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MrW,

Thanks for your response, continued support is always appreciated.

I am fighting for my M as it�s the right thing to do BUT where I feel I�m different is in the fact so many things are already against me!
AP is a co-worker I don�t think he is likely to be going anywhere any time soon, my WW has a career at this place of work and as such will never leave that position NEVER.
I HAD TO leave the family home (don�t bother with the 2x4�s as that was the right thing to do) and if anybody on these boards had to go through my kids and my life at that time they would have done exactly the same.
I have enabled her A way too much as has her place of work her family and certain friends. I feel his family and friends also don�t condone their actions�

What I intend to do going forwards:
� Be more strategic in sowing seeds of doubt in WW/AP head, use the opportunity when we are together to stretch out the time as best I can.
� Remain friendly towards her not condoning the A but just be there for her as a friend first hoping to build on that back to her most trusted friend.
� Remain her safe place allowing for her to vent about anything NOT related to the A as this is a well instilled boundary of mine.
� Validate her when called for.
� Just use the time to work on me and my failings and see this thing out.

I will never proceed to a D and will slow down her desire but this has never come up in conversation UNLESS she wants to punish me for NOT being that Mr. Nice Guy.

You may be aware my DB post was about limerence and how over time relationships deteriorate, I�m afraid I�ve come to the conclusion that due to my situation and the inability to PROPERLY Plan A or B but successfully Plan C I need to modify my approach as best I can to come somewhere close to the concepts mentioned on these boards and just stay hopeful this retched A runs its course.
Even then they STILL work together so hold little hope for my M and due to this better off coming to terms with that and look towards accepting the D when she escalates it and get the best �deal� I can for my boys and me.

I know I�ll get a lot of stick for the above defeatist comments but the odds are stacked way too much up against the M BUT will continue as long as I can, once I can�t do this anymore I�ll have to go �smart contact� instead of a regimented Plan B.

I�m sorry I feel there is nothing much more MB can help me with but will continue to stalk the boards for advice or snippets of useful experiences applicable to me.

BH � Dr Harley did indeed get back in touch with me regarding my email but unfortunately offered little more than I mention above. The facts are I am unable to successfully Plan A or B so am a Plan C�er which as we know is plan chaos and confusion.

It doesn�t look good for my M but appreciate all forum members input since I first started and apologies Melody if I came across as argumentative it wasn�t my intention.

Hope you all the best.

Mark.

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Your marriage can survive her losing her job or even her career. If that happens it would be due to HER behavior, not yours. Affairs are wrong, not fighting for your marriage or exposure. This is a big problem because even if the affair (or limerence) ends and they keep working together, you'll never recover. No contact for life is the first rule of recovery. It would be tortuous to you (and abusive of your wife) to continue working with OM and expecting you to trust her and/or be ok about it.

I'd suggest going after the business for failing to do anything about it. Take it to social media. Email her bosses. I've even had one guy years ago email the owner's wife (we were presuming the owner's Christian wife would be a lot more concerned about infidelity in the workplace than the owner who was sweeping it under the rug). I'd consider picketing the place with placards and signs. Maybe take out an ad in the local paper calling them out. Make them respond and feel a cost for condoning and supporting adultery among co-workers such that they either fire your wife or OM or one of them quits out of embarrassment. Either way - you've got a chance someday and you've made the workplace a very uncomfortable place for them to continue in affair bliss (accelerating it's eventual demise). An added bonus is such repercussions might make the company reconsider their policies, rules and procedures regarding workplace relationships in the future for the next guy (or you if your wife continues there).

Maybe you confront OM at the workplace and HOPE you can bait him into doing something inappropriate that the management will need to respond to or discipline him for. Even if it's actions against you (say his bosses feel they needed to send you a legal letter demanding you stay away from their business - that's just creating headaches for the management and it reflects poorly on your wife and OM).

If your wife gets mad and tells you that you've really done it now and she'll NEVER recover with you or even talk to you again - then you'll just take that as an indication you are doing a good job.

BTW, some strategies can be undertaking anonymously such that you can maintain deniability. Perhaps it's the OM's wife messing with the company??? You have no idea. Use a VPN to mask your IP address. Be strategic and fight dirty.

Your only objective is to kill the affair. Being nice to her or friendly or keeping in contact is only beneficial to the extent it interrupts or hurts their relationship.

I've seen guys talk their wayward wives into going to counseling with them "for the kids" or to talk about "co-parenting" or just to help the counselor help you deal with the changes in your life and "accept things". Any excuse to just spend time with them and, thus, irritate the OM, occupy their time and continue Plan A. DO NOT take any such counseling session as any kind of serious time to work on your relationship because there is NO WAY to actually "work", constructively, on your relationship while the affair continues. Just doesn't work. Instead you use the time to Plan A - looking your best, smelling good (throw out all old colognes and get new different ones - she now has an aversion to the old "you" smell), MOSTLY listening and letting HER go on and on talking herself in circles and trying to convince the councilor that her rationalizations and justifications make sense.

I know I ramble on about ideas that are pretty extreme but I'm trying to get you to think outside the box. Someday the affair is going to end and I've not seen very many, if any, successful recoveries where the betrayed husband just waited in limbo hoping to be the default position. It's disastrous because you'll never be able to look at yourself in the mirror and feel chivalrous and your wife will hardly view you as that lovable because you just sat there being nice while she went about with a total loser destroying herself, her family and life because you feared making her temporarily mad. Sure in the court of public opinion - rocking the boat in your situation will APPEAR mad - but going and behaving MADLY because you cherish your wife and family is precisely what gets you respect from your wayward wife in recovery. Who cares what others think - PUT UP A FIGHT. BE SHOCKING. BE UNPREDICTABLE. But do so strategically and without appearing needy or desperate (it's a fine line but you aren't begging nor are you being vindictive - just not rolling over). I guarantee OM's hate that.




FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Did you ever hear back from Dr. Harley? On last Monday�s show (Nov. 27th) it sounded a lot like your situation.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Hi BH,

Yes your right I had a response please see my post above. I missed the radio show but hope to catch it here.

Thanks.

Mark.

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**EDIT**


Last edited by Denali; 12/28/17 10:03 AM. Reason: TOS non MB advice
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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A reminder that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with MB concepts. Please stick to the principles. Thank you.


MBDenali@gmail.com
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