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On a related note, On Tuesday I called the number I had for the person who might have been the OMBW - wrong number.
I also called the brother of the person who I though might be the OMBW and left a message for him giving him enough information to determine if she is in fact the wife (or former wife) of the POSOM.
Based upon his age, unless she is about 15 years younger (possible) might not be the correct person. But so far no response back from him, or his sister.

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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
On a related note we (WW and I) had a long call with Jennifer last night. At the end of my portion of the call I asked if I should expose and Jenn felt that if I did it would be detrimental in this case - this being an exception.

If I had been able to do it a month or two ago - no problem, but now, it would be counter to what Jenn negotiated with my wife. On that note, I am to focus on being the best that I can for Plan A - and accept that there could be something going on - although I am even more confident after the call that this was a one sided EA, mostly in the mind of my wife.

For the next 3 months, I have to ignore the possibility that WW could be talking to POSOM or worse, and just be an awesome alternative.

Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
Tracking of OMW is on hold per Jennifer's recommendation, but I have one person that may be her - we will see - if needed.

Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
Yes, and she discussed it with her father, before confirming it with me during our second call.

This is an exception to the normal rule and it is only due to the circumstances - Jennifer negotiated a 3 month period (with my WW) to work with us. She (Jennifer) feels that exposure at this time would end that agreement.

Just to clarify- the tracking isn't on hold - the contact of this person is though - as if I contact...
Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
but to quote Jennifer - I work on Plan A - and keep my hamster (brain) in neutral - no matter what is happening or what I imagine is happening) I plan A for three months -I dropped the ball on this yesterday though.

2) Once the three months are over if we haven't moved onto recovery I will be doing exposure and going to Plan B. Otherwise - I will be calling the person who I suspect is the OM former W and talking and filling her in.

SugarCane 1) I don't really see any - except for a WW who is really stubborn and Jennifer felt that not exposing at this time to get the three months was better than exposing and getting no time. If you recall early on (I think like post 2 or 3) I let slip the option of exposure.
After yesterday, I am starting to second guess this, and wonder if the three months is worth it.

2) Yes - we talk every other week - part of the call with WW, and then with me. The intent was to show the benefits of Plan A as WW is staying around "mostly just for the kids" and that the changes I am making are solid and worth it.
Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
I did answer (or thought I did) - to quote Jennifer - "no matter what happens for the next three months plan A - in this case it is not a good idea to expose. Your imagination will be your worst enemy here keep it under wraps."

I pulled everything I could find that you told us about Jennifer. You were VERY SPECIFIC that Jennifer negotiated a "delay" of exposure to give you time to Plan A.

You were asked for clarification several times and you gave your answers (in quotes).

You were very emphatic when this advice was questioned - you told me that I had crossed a line asking "IF" this advice had really happened.

You have been gas lighting us and I don't appreciate it one bit.



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You have evidence. You have much more evidence than I ever had when I exposed 2 affairs and my sister exposed her WH's affair.

You already tried this "can't expose without evidence" excuse and that was answered. You even posted a "advice to new BS's - make sure you expose once you have the evidence" and TOLD US the evidence that you had (plans of WW and OM making plans to meet).

Do you want me to go pull every single post for this "evidence" issue now too?

Stop this, Allen. Please.

You DON'T WANT to expose. You would prefer to skip over the uncomfortable parts of MB and move over to the EN-meeting part of the program. It is really that simple. That won't work and nobody here is going to let you believe that it will.

Your WW has already told you and your kids that she's in love with the OM and as soon as she can she's moving out. WAKE UP.


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The post #2901048 above is exactly as I wrote it with Jennifer last night during our call (so yes Saturday AM her time), and read it back to her for her confirmation that this was accurate.

My W has admitted her feelings for the POSOM to me, she has not admitted any contact etc. I misunderstood the reasons for the delay of exposure. Hence the last line of the above post about perceptions / paraphrasing.

I did not gas light you, I did however mis-understand the reason for not exposing. For that I apologize.

I would like to leave this topic and move on. My goal / plan at this time is to monitor, to dig, and to Plan A to the best of my ability.

I spent last week listening to the radio clips (can I call them podcasts) that are in the Anger Management 101 thread. I still have a few more to go though.

If it isn't possible to leave that and move on, I thank you all for your assistance so far. No matter the outcome it will help me in the future.

Thank you.







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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
The post #2901048 above is exactly as I wrote it with Jennifer last night during our call (so yes Saturday AM her time), and read it back to her for her confirmation that this was accurate.

My W has admitted her feelings for the POSOM to me, she has not admitted any contact etc.

You do realize we can go back and read your posts, right? This is in direct contradiction to what you have told us:

Originally Posted by AllenTweed on 7-10-2017
Late last week WW admitted to calling POSOM on Tuesday (her day off).

This prompted my to take another look at the recorder from the time I did actually have it in place and was testing it.

1) I caught them talking - after she promised no contact (without using the NC letter)
2) He invited her to his new place once he moves (I speculate this was June first so the visit may already have happened))

Originally Posted by AllenTweed
#2900658 - 07/11/17 06:45 AM Re: How can I fix this? [Re: SusieQ]

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Thank you for sharing - I will repeat the timeline
I recorded a call and didn't listen to it at the time - March 20th
I stupidly believed WW that there was NC until she told me otherwise the first week of June (she told me she saw him)
I set up a call with Jennifer - first one happened June 8th - at that time she told me clearly not to expose
I found someone I believe may be the OMW the last week of June. (this assumes she has already left the home and has been living elsewhere for sometime as it was a different phone# and address).
July 6th WW told me she again contacted POSOM and this prompted me to listen to the VAR from March 20th.
I discover the proof I was looking for (swing for the fences I deserve it)
.

Originally Posted by AllenTweed on July 11
Our last call (Jennifer, WW, and I) was last week, before Jennifer spoke to WW for her part of the call I let Jennifer know that WW had admitted to calling POSOM the day before.
I believe she is aware that WW and POSOM are still in contact. I also told Jennifer that WW had told me she is screaming for affection, but does not want me to fill that EN.

Originally Posted by AllenTweed on 7-11
Exposure you told me initially to not without proof - I have proof and think I have the OMW and Jennifer has told me not to at this time.

You told us on July 10-11th that you had the evidence that she had contacted him, that she had admitted this. You said you had given this information to Jennifer so what you say now is different from what you have been telling us.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I had a thread, and had it removed when my ww told me she found this site.
No idea if she was referring to just the site, or the forum itself.
But I am at a loss so I am going to take a chance, and ask for ideas again.

In brief - dday1 Nov of 2016 - I didn't see it for what it was. Tried to improve, but didn't have the benefit of this site.
dday2 -Jan of 2017 - shortly after stumbled on this site. Made improvements to the best of my ability, eliminated LBs...
We counseled with Dr. Chalmers over the summer - mostly me, as WW didn't want to participate for the most part.
POSOM worked for WW for a couple of years, and moved to another agency (so no direct work connection now - but they can still communicate at will, and of course see each other at lunch etc.)

WW moved out in Oct of 2017 - I was not aware until I returned home and discovered this.

Foolishly I didn't expose until after she moved out.

So why am I restarting a thread (if my old one can be attached no problem)?

I just stumbled across information that proves to me the affair is still strong. WW and POSOM are taking things slow to make sure it works out. She has been in communication with him, seen him at least once that I know of (early last month).

We have two boys one is pre-teen, and the 2nd mid teens. They know about the situation - except that WW and POSOM are still in contact and if I tell them then we are probably just going to have another fight as their loyalties are understandably divided.

Much of WW's support network are enablers and are supporting her actions - the few that aren't are unable / unwilling to say much. Or WW just doesn't listen to them.

WW and I still talk, and if I keep things light get along ok.
I can plan A - but it is limited, offers are for the most part declined, we have some activities that were pre-planned that we still do together, but the scope of those have been reduced to just the event - before it was a date night.

We are currently preparing our house for sale. She never wants to return here - so even if we reconcile it would have to go. I don't want to stay here - memories, and it is a handful to take care of alone.

So - exposure done - but admittedly late - it initially scared POSOM off - then he came back and wrote to me that he loved her and would wait. He involved the police. His STBX when I talked to her didn't really care. She declined to provide any information about his parents or sister. He deleted his FB profile - but none of them were listed anyway.

Currently I am at a loss of what to do next and if it will do any good. Feeling a bit discouraged, but not ready to give up.
I see a few months of possible Plan A time as we prep the house for sale etc.

Is there any information missing?

Suggestions?
Thank you.



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You need to finish up exposure. It was not the BWs responsibility to provide you with details for your exposures. If you can't track these people down, I doubt there is any reason for OM to stay away and he will continue to pester the marriage. If that's the case, you should just move to plan D. It's not possible for her to love you until the A is dead, so why should she resist him? Plan A cannot plaster over a shoddy exposure.

In fact plan A IS mostly centered on exposure. Without exposure it's a very unattractive plan doormat. You need to make it plan you don't fear conflict, and are so removed from love busters that you won't be drawn into it.

Who else was exposed to? Can you list them?

Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
We have two boys one is pre-teen, and the 2nd mid teens. They know about the situation - except that WW and POSOM are still in contact and if I tell them then we are probably just going to have another fight as their loyalties are understandably divided.


This makes me wonder what an earth your exposure to them must have involved. What have you said to them that they have led you to believe they support their mothers affair? If you are fighting with their mother about the affair this could account for them siding with her. Do not fight with her!

Am I right in guessing that you were needlessly vague? If they don't know the affair is ongoing, that's not exposure. It's a vague and confusing half truth.

You should know that you can't make lovebank deposits in plan A. No woman will see you like that while they love someone else.Its more about image.All you can do is hasten the end of the affair with exposure. While doing so you leave the impression that you are someone who *could* make her happy. Don't expect any success until the affair is dead.

Last edited by indiegirl; 01/06/18 12:32 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Reading between the lines, it's obvious you still haven't exposed. But you already know this which is why you went to the trouble to gloss it over with comments like:

Quote
Foolishly I didn't expose until after she moved out.

And then you go onto explain you really didn't expose at all:

Quote
We have two boys one is pre-teen, and the 2nd mid teens. They know about the situation - except that WW and POSOM are still in contact

Which only means they don't know the truth about the "situation."

and

Quote
His STBX when I talked to her didn't really care.


Meaning you didn't give her this intel because she "didn't really care" which also probably means she doesn't know the truth.

Quote
She declined to provide any information about his parents or sister. He deleted his FB profile - but none of them were listed anyway.

And you declined to get the contact information because you never looked hard enough. We went through this with you for months on end when you "couldn't find" the contact information for the OMW.

So anyway, you never exposed the affair but threw these little crumbs in there so we dullards wouldn't ask you about it.

The biggest problem I see here is YOU, because you just absolutely refuse to follow the steps of this program. You wouldn't follow the advice before, you still won't follow it so I don't see the point in posting to you now.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The biggest problem I see here is YOU, because you just absolutely refuse to follow the steps of this program. .

And presumably didn't follow Dr Chalmers advice since this approach is not hers. If he won't follow advice he is paying for, why would he listen here?

Step 1: Tries own method, (appeasement) which doesn't work
Step 2: Finds free online MB advice. Not appeasing enough. So..
Step 3: Maybe if im paying for the advice it will tell me what I want to hear?
Step 4: Go back to free advisors with a story that the scary stuff has already been done and ask how do I appease better?

Every betrayed spouse has given way to panic and fear and done at least step one, but don't you think your own plan is by this point a proven failure?

Last edited by indiegirl; 01/06/18 02:19 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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It's a shame the old thread was removed - it was basically excuse after excuse about how you couldn't expose.

It was very clear to all of us following the thread that you wanted to follow the cozy parts of Plan A - meeting ENs and avoiding lovebusters while avoiding exposure.

You even went so far as to try to get coaching with your WW with Jennifer, pretending that the affair was not active - even with proof that your WW was talking to the OM.

It's very disappointing that you wasted a lot of posters' time and energy.


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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
So why am I restarting a thread (if my old one can be attached no problem)?

We have attached both threads at your request.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane on 7-11-17
I see your situation headed the wrong way because the affair has been enabled. The most likely outcome of enabling the affair is that the WS eventually leaves for the OP. The reason is because affairs thrive on secrecy, so the affair has been allowed to thrive and grow all this time. Exposure kills affairs. It can be immediate or it can hasten their death. So the idea of Plan A is to a) kill the affair and b) meet your spouses needs as the the affair crumbles.

By not exposing, you negate the effectiveness of Plan A and do more to enhance the affair.

I posted this to you on 7-11-2017.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
living_well,
Trust me when I say if it becomes necessary, I can dig up anything I want.
Your posts have convinced me this is true. I am no IT expert, but pretty good at finding info on people that does not come up at the first google search. You are way better at it than I am.

How about searching for OM hobbies and interests? He probably posts on some forum. With ius username, you will find more info.

Same goes for your wife. Most people can't stop posting personal info if they think they post incognito. So if she posts on the labradoodle forum, she probably spills info on OM.

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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
I just stumbled across information that proves to me the affair is still strong. WW and POSOM are taking things slow to make sure it works out. She has been in communication with him, seen him at least once that I know of (early last month).

What is the OM's marital status? Does he live with his W? Do you know?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by indiegirl
And presumably didn't follow Dr Chalmers advice since this approach is not hers.

In case you don't have time to read back through the thread - the advice he relayed as coming from Jennifer was very confusing and didn't make sense. First he said Jennifer had negotiated a "deal" with the WW to allow Allen to meet her needs and if at the end of the three months, she was still wanting to move out, he could expose at that time.

When we hammered him on why that doesn't work - he came back and said he didn't have enough evidence, which was in contradiction to the other things he had previously told us.

I STRONGLY urged him to contact Dr Harley on the radio show - and shortly after the thread disappeared.

I'm glad the old thread was attached for anyone that wants to read it. It's a good thread showing WHY doing your own "Plan A" with no exposure does not work, period.


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indiegirl,
Thank you - if someone in Canada would like to chime in and provide links to a PI that will track down POSOMs parents and sister - I will take it.
Otherwise I am at a loss.
I met him, his children - I did not tell his kids (about 12 and 14) what their dad was doing.
I called and spoke to his wife.
This was done mid October. the week-end after my WW moved out. I had no contact info for POSOMS W (now know she is living in her own place and they have been separated since last spring). I found her as his son gave me the contact info when I stopped at his house.
During the course of my conversation with POSOM he corrected me (I was using a name I thought was his wife's (it was his sisters first name) and he corrected me and told me his wife's name. The next morning he deleted his FB account - his only online presence, prior to this I had downloaded all 52 of his Facebook friends.

In response, he wrote a NC letter to my WW, then the following Tuesday he wrote to me - cc'ing the police, his STBX, my WW, that he has decided to wait. If I have any kind of record (including even just a dispute) this is problematic for work purposes. So he has threatened me with harassment if I contact him or his kids again.

Outside of the above - exposed to:
My family - parents, brother, aunts and uncles.
Our boys were exposed to first and early. They currently move between her basement apt and the house. They were told that WW is in love with someone else - they know who, and that she refuses to stop communicating with him. The week after WW moved out our oldest was angry with WW, but that lasted a few days. They have pretty much just accepted the situation.

On WW's side:
Her brother - who enables
Her oldest friend - her maid of honor - also enables
the other closest friends who have played a role in our marriage and know us both (are in the area) with two exceptions all have been silent or have actively enabled. There is a language barrier between me, and most of these people.


I agree, and understand that Love Bank deposits are pointless presently. And my attempt at exposure didn't work, in fact, her anger and his response seems to have back fired. I have no angle left (short of finding his parents - and hoping that they have some influence) to drive a wedge.

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Responding to Mel's post:
I found the information this AM confirming that they are still in contact.
Currently the boys are with WW. I haven't had a chance to let them know that their mom is still talking (and has at least once met him - probably (I hope) for coffee).
Our current child schedule is 2-2-3 so weekends (the 3) are constantly rotating.
This makes it difficult for her to plan meetings and get togethers, she took and apt about 3 minutes drive from me - about 30 from POSOM.

So - I take it to mean - that I should update the boys and tell them that their mom is still talking to POSOM and explain that this will make it impossible for us to have a chance? I was expecting this.

As for the implication that I didn't expose - yes the boys were told clearly that (before the move out, and when I still only had a VAR that could have been platonic) WW had feelings for POSOM. I had made it clear that any contact would hinder any chance we have.
This was done early (about mid-February) and then again during the summer, they asked questions of WW - she was very unhappy that they asked and I didn't deflect, I told them that if contact was still happening it was still damaging to my efforts.

I did give the STBX all the information I had. I explained to her that my WW was POSOMs boss when he worked at XXXX (he has since moved on) and that while they worked together they fell in love. That my WW had just moved out, and that I spoke to her WH the night before and he confirmed that he had feelings for my WW. Her response was - "oh, well I guess I am happy for him. We get along better now, and I don't want to rock the boat." I asked if she would share his parents information or anyone else who might have any influence over him - and she declined, again she didn't want to rock the boat.

As for the STBX contact info - after POSOMs son gave me her phone number and address (oddly he didn't give me her name - he assumed I had it) I worked it backwards. She has an unlisted cell number. Her address is a rental house. No social media (no FB, Instagram, Twitter...) she has a linked in profile, but this gave me nothing other than where she went to school, and that she is a stay at home mom. No employment history. No photos.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
I just stumbled across information that proves to me the affair is still strong. WW and POSOM are taking things slow to make sure it works out. She has been in communication with him, seen him at least once that I know of (early last month).

What is the OM's marital status? Does he live with his W? Do you know?


Separated - in Canada people (outside of those who are MBers or understand that separated does not mean not married) consider this practically divorced. I have confirmed they do not live together - POSOMs son confirmed this, and gave me her cell # and address.

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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
living_well,
Trust me when I say if it becomes necessary, I can dig up anything I want.
Your posts have convinced me this is true. I am no IT expert, but pretty good at finding info on people that does not come up at the first google search. You are way better at it than I am.

How about searching for OM hobbies and interests? He probably posts on some forum. With ius username, you will find more info.

Same goes for your wife. Most people can't stop posting personal info if they think they post incognito. So if she posts on the labradoodle forum, she probably spills info on OM.


G2G. Thank you - in this case I feel like a failure - and regret having posted that. I tried those types of searches, before he deleted FB he was a part of a few groups there - related to sports that he likes, no posts on those at all. I understand that his life is full with his work, his boys, and that is about it. He has about 100% custody. So not a lot of time for any activities that aren't with them.
My WW hates computers - this was one of my lbusters in the past - I wasn't fond of repeating myself and she would often ask me to re-explain tech stuff. If given the chance I would now spend days re-explaining how to make a short cut to her.

As far as I know she has FB, and a Twitter for work, she has never enjoyed any online communication other than messenger - I don't even know if she texts, one of her friends teased her in the past that she never responded to them - but no idea now.

She doesn't really have a username - I have created her gmail accounts for her in the past
As for POSOM the only username I have for him was the one from FB.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Allan_Tweed
Thank you - if someone in Canada would like to chime in and provide links to a PI that will track down POSOMs parents and sister - I will take it..

This post indicates to me why your situation is so far gone. You have had over a year to get this information and have done nothing to get it. That tells me that you have never taken exposure seriously. And that is fine with me, it is your marriage to lose and you are the one suffering the consequences.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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