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Joined: Oct 2013
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Sweetheart...

Go straight to your women shelter.... call around and go. They normally have lawyers free for help. Explain all the actual physical violence/rape he did to you in the past- his continued abuse and see what they can do.
They have amazing resources out there and have a network of places for you and your son to stay TODAY. If you can get a restraining order- they will come kick him out of your home.
If you can't- don't sweat it...
Stop worrying about your house. They aren't going to give it to him- it isn't going to get up and move and will be there when you get through all this in some fashion. The house is making you paralyzed. (and trust me- your abusive husband KNOWS this)

You have a job- go to a women shelter and leave honey. You can help yourself out totally if you just stop
paying for that house for now (it isn't worth more than you and your son)

Please go and see what they can do. I am always saddened by women who don't know what kind of resources really are out there for them now days.


BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced

"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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I already discussed the pre-marital rape and coercion since marrying with my lawyer. I didn't prosecute then and the statute of limitations has expired in this state.

The coercion does NOT qualify for abuse, any more than emotional abuse or financial abuse. They don't qualify because my immediate safety is not at risk. For these reasons, I would also not be welcomed at a shelter. Those are for people in immediate danger for their lives. With previous police reports to back up their claims. Recent reports. My lawyer made that very clear.

As far as the law is concerned, I'm just an unhappy wife who wants to leave her husband. And, when viewed against women who are battered and in fear of their lives, that really is as high as my standard goes.

It really would be like me claiming to have survived cancer when all I've had were some precancerous cells removed before they could do any real damage. Putting myself into that group, using up their resources when they need them so much more than I do is unconscionable to me.

I am not minimizing my situation. I need to get free of this marriage. I know that. But, I do stop short of using any means necessary.

All of this was discussed with the lawyer. She is VERY aware of the standards of this state and has had to help women in immediate danger to escape their dangerous husbands. She did not dissuade me lightly.

Had she seen any evidence that I was at immediate risk, she would have helped me get my son and get to a shelter that day. There is no evidence because I am not at physical risk of being injured or killed.

Yes, I am married to a skilled manipulator. He may even be able to say the same of me. At this point, I have to recognize that I have taken on some of his traits during this marriage. Perhaps even had them before we met. But, he is not a physical threat to me any more than I am a physical threat to him.

Yes, I need to exit this marriage. Sooner rather than later. Still, if I've survived this long using my coping mechanisms the best way I know how and if staying in the marriage a few more months would benefit me and our son financially, then that's what I will do. I will not be rash when rashness isn't really called for. He will claim that I am using him during this period when he looks back. I don't really care, by the time he realizes I HAVE used him to get through to the next stage, I will be gone.

Please, please, please, do not ask me to make him into a monster he is not. What he is may be hard enough to live with. He is no brute, nor is he a monster. Never has he threatened me with physical violence, nor acted in any way to suggest that he would act with physical violence towards me.

Even the rape, which I will not back down from calling rape, was not performed in a violent way. He snuck into me as I slept (when I was compliant) and I woke up during.

His way is not to hold down and force. His way is to manipulate, coerce and play mind games. His way is to lay word traps and lead me into them. Then, use my honor against me to prove I'm a woman of my (manipulated) word to get his way. That way, he can claim I'm a liar if I refuse to play the game. This method is far more effective for him, he gets to remain the 'good guy' regardless of the outcome.

This is why it's so hard for those of us married to this type of person to see the damage, to recognize the manipulation and to get away. It's done in inches. It's done slowly over time. It's done with a complete lack of regard of the effects on the other person as long as the preferred outcome is reached.

So, I waiver, because this may be abuse by the standards set forth on this website. I want away from someone who encourages bad feelings about myself. I want freedom so my son doesn't grow up thinking this is normal. But, those inches are draining me. And every once in a while I catch myself questioning - is it REALLY THAT bad, that I need to bust up my family, start chaos and hurt innocents who had no choice in the fallout? Until the next not-so-subtle manipulation. And I'm back to planning the new exit method.


ME:50 HIM:53
MARRIED: 13 YRS, DATED 4 MONTHS PRIOR
HIS 2 KIDS: 30 & 25
OUR CHILD: 9
MOVING OUT & FILING FOR SEPARATION ??/??/??
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We've been in somewhat of a holding pattern. I've been in withdrawal and he's been trying, though less than before. We've been talking a lot. Those talks have been helping both of us understand the other's emotions and actions.

He realized that all is not great between us and that we have a long way to go before that could be said. With the approach of the holidays, his birthday and both of our unease in the marriage, the stress became too much for him. He ended up in the hospital.

After days of testing, they determined that he had not had a heart attack. He does have heart disease that will require management the rest of his life, but no heart attack at this stage.

During his stay at the hospital, I stayed home one night alone. I hated it. Really hated it. The next night, I kept our son home with me. Hubby not happy because that meant he was with us in the hospital during my visit. He needed to talk grownup with me and couldn't with son right there (that's a point I'll make with him later about UA time).

I was better in the house without him while our son was there, but I realized that I did still miss my husband very much.

Husband came home the next afternoon. I have realized that I do love my husband very much. Not in the romantic 'in love' way that can be achieved using this program, but still it is love.

He continues to tell me that he loves me very much, is in love with me and couldn't live without me. Now, he adds that this past week proves it. He says he'd never have survived all this without having me by his side.

I don't know this, but it's possible that I did move somewhat out of withdrawal because his being in the hospital made every conversation very focused and he couldn't love-bust as usual. And, that he several times asked me how I was doing through all this, aware that I was feeling the stress of all this.

Anyway, at Christmas dinner yesterday, he was kind to the youngest two, patient with the adults and actually seemed to enjoy my company and the company of my mother. This attitude hasn't been seen in years!

I want to believe that these changes he says he wants to implement actually happen. I want to believe that the way he behaved yesterday will become the new normal - something from which we can build! Because I do love him, I want this to be the first step towards building our marriage into a strong, sustained loving relationship.

I see now that we both need more work with love-busters and the friends vs the enemies of good conversation. Then, I think we can move towards the 20-30 hours of UA. From there, if we've learned our lessons and practiced what we've learned, I think anything can be possible.

In the back of my mind, always, is that this is a freak-out phase that started with the heart scare and will end when he believes things are good enough again and we can stop working (or at least HE can stop working) so hard at something that 'should be' natural. I know this is more likely, but until he's proven it, I'm TRYING to have faith that he has got this message and is ready to do the work with me.


ME:50 HIM:53
MARRIED: 13 YRS, DATED 4 MONTHS PRIOR
HIS 2 KIDS: 30 & 25
OUR CHILD: 9
MOVING OUT & FILING FOR SEPARATION ??/??/??
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Hope is not a plan OTF. Hope is something that you have either assured for yourself or it is cultivated as a carrot for the abused.

Everyone I know who works with manipulated spouses talks about this barrier of hope. How they are not *really* abused or in *immediate* danger. By the time danger unmistakably arrives these people are apologetic about needing help they didn't ask for sooner!

How well I remember the hope I felt in the first few days of arriving here. I never hope for things any more. I either have them or I go get them.

I hope this new year brings you the death of hope in the form of a workable plan.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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HI! I want to clarify a few things for you. Please remember that we are objective observers because we have no feelings to cloud our judgement. I have also had direct contact with Dr. Harley about this.

1. We are never trying to make it out that your husband is a "bad" man or evil etc. He doesn't know how to control his temper or be married like everyone who usually shows up here!!
So again- we are saying he needs to learn new actions not that he is a bad man/ person etc.

2. Separation works best when you ARE in love with him and willing to give him a chance. We were never asking you not to be and has absolutely ZERO relevance to whether you separate or not. Separating without love just equals divorce.

3. Dr Harley expressly told me that separation will never ever harm your relationship if it was going to work out. It is just the catalyst that will make what is going to happen (whether he is actually going to do the work or not) happen now.
This way you don't have to "hope" or "pray" or wonder if it will stick.

4.This is it. If a man will do the work he WILL no matter what when you separate from him. If it was all smoke and mirrors- you will know right away. This way you aren't still here 5 years from now still hoping.

5. If a man is willing- separation also hurry's the learning process along. This is also good for you. If you love him and he really works on it- the separation actually helps heal and teach new actions within a year instead of several. You are protected when he has slip up's... he is more motivated.


What I am trying to say is that you are still trying to convince us of things that don't matter.
You love him, what he is doing good today, things he says are new revelations, what you are hoping for etc. The million reasons why you don't think "you" need to separate etc.

We aren't telling you this to hurt you- it is your best shot.
It has the highest probability of making your marriage work if it ever was going to.

It is the ONLY way to see if a man is serious.

Keep working on finding your way out. Don't give up. So shelters are out. We are still here to brainstorm with you.

Stay safe....




BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced

"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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Thoughts are scattered right now. The 'kindness to keep her' cycle has already come to an end. He's still being nicer than before, but still no UA, no EN's getting met.

He will ask, but I'm honestly so deep into withdrawal right now that I still don't want him filling my needs. AND, I don't like the strings attached when he tries.

My thoughts are scattered because of work. There is a very bad vibe - layoffs or worse, closure.

But, I just had a thought that could be helpful. This could be the time for me to ask my father if he will finally help his youngest daughter in a tough situation. I don't hold out much hope because every other request has been denied. Yet, it's possible he'll let me take our son there and look for work in that state. It would be a first in my entire adult life.

The job market is slightly better, the schools are WAY better and I would be much closer to the rest of my siblings.

Down side - less likely for a reconciliation. I would be two states away. In the 'bosom of my birth family.'

I have issues with them from my youth, especially my father and stepmother. Those two have managed to keep me at arm's length for three decades. Only to act as if the distance was all my doing when I do finally find a way to get there or pay for them to come here.

Still, I can handle their never-ending judgment if they'll give me the chance to stay with them long enough to find a job and a place to live. Yes, selling my house to my husband or just selling it will be more difficult from so far away.

This may be what I choose if the ugly gut feelings about my current job are right. My thoughts are scattered because I have so little faith that my father will come through for me in my time of need.

Mom has even less likelihood, my siblings will be emotionally supportive, but NOT to the point of actually lifting a finger in a meaningful way.

Ugh. I know I could use the help. I know moving to Dad's state would be better for me and for my son. I also know the chances he'll agree to this are about as good as my winning the jackpot lottery when it's back up to 400,000,000+.


ME:50 HIM:53
MARRIED: 13 YRS, DATED 4 MONTHS PRIOR
HIS 2 KIDS: 30 & 25
OUR CHILD: 9
MOVING OUT & FILING FOR SEPARATION ??/??/??
OnTheFence608 #3002444 01/16/18 08:24 PM
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Hi OTF,

If you feel like that really would be the best, if your dad won't let you come right away- ask him for his advice on how to get there- any jobs you could have lined up- see if having him brainstorm with you might help...

If you sold your house where you are now -would it give you some equity money to at least move to that state-put your stuff in storage and just rent a hotel or something till you got a job and could line up an apartment to rent or something?
Although doing that with him there might be a nightmare....

Tell us what your family says and lets see if we can make a plan.



BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced

"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
Elaina7 #3002460 01/17/18 08:44 AM
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I can sell the house, I own it outright. Yes, him being there would be a nightmare, it will sell for way under market because of it's current condition. But, whatever it sells for will be equity for me.

I do need to find out the laws about selling the house, liquidating my premarital asset, and what that would mean regarding having to share the proceeds with my husband. I think it stays mine until it sells, but the proceeds are marital property if I sell before a divorce. My state stinks - it's laws are designed to keep people in the marriage. That part is fine, except when the marriage is bad and people NEED to get separated.

Next hurdle, how to bring this up with Dad and get Dad to agree to keep it from hubby regardless of the outcome. And, do all that out of the earshot of hubby and son. Work is not a good option right now, thinks are hinky here.


ME:50 HIM:53
MARRIED: 13 YRS, DATED 4 MONTHS PRIOR
HIS 2 KIDS: 30 & 25
OUR CHILD: 9
MOVING OUT & FILING FOR SEPARATION ??/??/??
OnTheFence608 #3002466 01/17/18 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence608
I do need to find out the laws about selling the house, liquidating my premarital asset, and what that would mean regarding having to share the proceeds with my husband. I think it stays mine until it sells, but the proceeds are marital property if I sell before a divorce. My state stinks - it's laws are designed to keep people in the marriage. That part is fine, except when the marriage is bad and people NEED to get separated.


I do not know the specifics of your state rules but the Common Law concept is that a pre owned asset does not become marital unless it is co-mingled. You co-mingled it when you used marital funds to pay the mortgage and taxes during the time of the marriage. However, your state law may only regard that portion of the uplift in value during the marriage to be considered marital property.

So (to take example numbers) if the house was worth $100,000 at the start of the marriage and is sold for $130,000 then you will probably owe your XH $15,000. Of course if there is a pre or postnuptial contract, you may be able to keep all of it.

Selling the house before the divorce is final will not change this. However, you should put this money into a separate account so that it does not get co-mingled with other assets. You can spend it, but keep it separate and title it 'separate property account'.

Another possibility is to rent out the house. Again, if you do that be sure to keep the income in a separate account.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
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living_well #3002473 01/17/18 10:57 AM
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If you rented out the house would that cover your rent in the new location?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

indiegirl #3002486 01/17/18 04:52 PM
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No, the cost of living in Dad's state is much higher.

Also, what I know so far is that I paid for the house, in it's entirety, by myself using my income and my inheritance. By law, the house is in all respects mine. I couldn't even add his name when I wanted to because the only option is a quit claim. We agreed that was not right. According to now three lawyers, I would get to keep the house and maybe only pay him a $10,000 'sweat equity' in the home, some say only if I choose to do so. I also pay the taxes every time by myself.

And, I'd have to get him out of the house to rent it out. That is the challenge along this whole thing. Getting hubby to move out for a separation that COULD be the beginning of healing this marriage, but will likely end in divorce. Because he will NOT consider the Harley marriage plan as a viable option to healing our relationship. No 15-20 hours of UA time and that's just to start.


ME:50 HIM:53
MARRIED: 13 YRS, DATED 4 MONTHS PRIOR
HIS 2 KIDS: 30 & 25
OUR CHILD: 9
MOVING OUT & FILING FOR SEPARATION ??/??/??
OnTheFence608 #3002492 01/17/18 05:56 PM
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Can't you simply kick him out if the house is yours?

Last edited by indiegirl; 01/17/18 05:56 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

indiegirl #3002497 01/18/18 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Can't you simply kick him out if the house is yours?


Title is meaningless, you can be a tenant and have right of residence. In my state (NY) a utility bill, driving license or even receiving mail at the address gives you right of residence but each state has its own rules.

Many wives get an RO and solve the problem of the time between filing and divorce that way.

But my lawyer told me that plenty more just change the locks. If you put in a tenant and he tries to get back in, he would get into plenty of trouble with the police.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
OnTheFence608 #3002498 01/18/18 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by OnTheFence608
Also, what I know so far is that I paid for the house, in it's entirety, by myself using my income and my inheritance. By law, the house is in all respects mine.


Of course you should follow the legal advice you receive but know that there is no 'my income' during a marriage. All income is considered marital. Does not matter which of you earned it.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
living_well #3002501 01/18/18 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Can't you simply kick him out if the house is yours?


Title is meaningless, you can be a tenant and have right of residence. In my state (NY) a utility bill, driving license or even receiving mail at the address gives you right of residence but each state has its own rules.

Many wives get an RO and solve the problem of the time between filing and divorce that way.

But my lawyer told me that plenty more just change the locks. If you put in a tenant and he tries to get back in, he would get into plenty of trouble with the police.


This is what I meant. I kicked out my husband and changed the locks even though both our names were on the house. I certainly would if it were just my house, I would only hesitate if the house were in his sole name.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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