Thanks Indie. I will try to get hold of that. I just skimmed a few reviews now. One thing that strikes me is how people somehow believe that physical violence is the peak of awfulness. Maybe I have not experienced enough physical harm, but I don't understand why onlookers would consider injury as automatically more severe than emotional harm. Injuries are caused in a moment. And they heal. Sure, there might be some reminders. But there is rarely the kind of repeated reminder of fear and anxiety like emotional triggers give you - the place, the situation, a song, a smell. All these things cause emotional pain to flood back. But physical pain, in my experience, is a one time thing. It does not flood back at all. Even if you are in the same place with the same person.

Glad we were all able to help. But don't underestimate your own ability to use the tools. I had a full time job, lived in a foreign country, had a newborn and two other small children when my XH started what became his first admitted affair.

Had I then known about the OW, I don't think I would have been able do what you have done.

I had a great day in court with OW on Wednesday . It was the first day of her criminal trial for threats and assault. The public prosecutor again tried to derail the proceedings 12 hours before the hearing by calling to tell me I should not come because "the magistrate is on vacation". Since that sounded like a suspicious story, I got a friend to investigate. She managed to get the numbers for the magistrate and called him. We confirmed that he was definitely not away and that the case was on the roll as agreed in October. We also passed on the message that it was the prosecutor that had told us he was away.

My friend, who by happy coincidence has just got a new job as Director of Public Prosecutions starting on March 1, was then able to call the prosecutor back and make him aware that we knew his story was not true - and arranged for the magistrate to call the prosecutor and berate him for lying to us.

I was not confident at the start of the hearing that we would get a fair trial, considering the prosecutor's obvious bias against prosecuting the case. However, after my witness testimony and cross examination (i have to say, I am a pretty good witness....truthful, calm, and not easily tricked) the prosecutor had a total personality change and was suddenly beaming from ear to ear and slapping me on the back like I am his long-lost friend. He got even happier after the testimony of the security guard who witnessed the incident and corroborated absolutely everything I said, specifically pointing out that I did not react to OW's anger and aggression and was trying to step back away from her while she was trying to grab me. The final day of the trial, with the arresting police officer testimony and the cross examination of OW, will be on Feb 19.

I think what was happening before now was that the prosecutor thought there was not a good case, or he thought he was going to have to work too hard in order to fight the defence team, so was therefore amenable to suggestions by the defence lawyer that they work together to delay proceedings until I got tired of travelling back to that country. But now that he suddenly realises this case will be an easy win for him, and now that he knows the friend I have been bringing along with me every time is going to be his boss from March 1, his priorities and interests have suddenly shifted.

Pointers for anyone who needs to tackle corruption in their day-to-day life: document everything, do everything properly, never lie or misrepresent events, triangulate your sources, ignore manipulation tactics (aggression, insults, belittling, arrogance, blame-shifting or, conversely, sexual advances, gifts, compliments, social invitations, flattery) and do not engage in them yourself, confirm procedures/policies/information/dates/appointments given to you verbally, always follow everything up, and report everything that is worthy of reporting up the chain of command and/or to police and professional organisations when applicable (lay out the facts, but don't ever make accusations). Most of all be calm and confident in every interaction.

This advice is golden even without corruption. Congratulations Chalk

Thanks Living Well!

Amazing, isn't it, what a fresh, improved perspective can produce?!

tl

It is

I'm halfway through reading "People of the Lie", which is a book I have seen recommended here a few times.

I am now having something of a life crisis where I see liars and lies EVERYWHERE and it is really depressing. I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on how to deal with WH's lies now (through lawyers, and make sure everything is in writing so he can't twist, gaslight and manipulate so much), but how do I deal with the rest of the world's liars?! Especially the ones who I employ at work. I am acutely aware now that if someones swears that "xxxxx is not true", unless I actually check the evidence behind that statement, I have absolutely no way of knowing whether it really is true. And if that person wants to lie to me, they will do so, with the swearing all part of the act. But asking for evidence (even in cases where there is a demonstrable reason for scepticism) seems to be viewed as an aggressive personal attack.
Should I just ignore the social pressure to take people at their word and make sure I feel confident I am being told the truth when I ask for it? Or should I put this dilemma down to wayward-induced hypersensitivity - and accept that lying is part of the way the world works?

On a practical level, I really can't verify every single questionable statement people at work make. And I am not sure whether pushing for evidence does more harm to working relationships than good resulting from the exposure of truth.

Ha! This happened to me too, you have to change your way of approaching everyone and it's super awkward but only because you're not in 'of course you are happy to verify' mode yet and are instead in 'ummmmmm, this is super awkward but...would you verify that please?' mode - is this true for you too?

Nevertheless I work with teenagers and still get the 'How daaaaaaaaaare you question the honour of my household' thing quite a lot. Never had an instance where that wasn't the cover up of a lie.

I tend to go with silently filing it under lie and go with one of the following:
"Humour me"
"Well I trust you, so I can overlook it once, but next time you do x, please let me have (the proof)" (This one can stop lying going forward because they've been forewarned there are checks in place)
"I wouldn't like to hold you to different rules than the others. The rule is you need (proof) and I trust that you can provide it. Thanks for understanding".

Or there's the good old teacher-y raising of eyebrows:
"So all I need is (proof) which I'm sure you have and we can put this matter to bed"
"ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR?"
*Raises eyebrows* (Allows uncomfortable silence to grow until they say something)
"SOMETHING, SOMETHING, NOT FAIR, YOU DONT LIKE ME"
"Honestly all I need is the (proof) and I'm surprised there's a problem with that. Is there a problem sourcing it?
"No"
"Great!"

You won't get the proof (because there isn't any) but you will slowly build a culture where there's no place to hide lies.

Thank you SO much Indie! This post made me feel a thousand times better!! You are totally right when you say I need to create the culture of verification of statements so that people will expect it, rather than do the whole "how dare you not trust me!" thing. Your suggestions are brilliant - especially this one:


I have actually started doing that already. I take one example of bad behaviour as an opportunity to remind everyone what is acceptable and what is not, and then if they do it again, they can't say they didn't know the rules....

Yeah unless they know you're serious, they might as well go for the dramatic denial. There's a high likelihood of making a person with pleasant manners doubt the whole interaction.

I like the particular one you picked out because it provides a facesaving exit so no need to double down and lie, lie, lie which is just gross.

I was back in court with OW yesterday for her criminal trial for threats and assault. It seems crazy to be re-living a 15 minute incident from a year ago in such mind-numbing detail. What a difference a year makes. WH was demanding that the kids tell him why we are going to that country on Skype at the weekend. I guess him and OW aren't in touch anymore if he doesn't even know when she is due to be in the dock. The final judgement date is now set for April 9, which is a big relief. It's been a struggle to manage driving 6 hours there and back for court dates that keep being postponed. But I want to keep pushing so that OW really experiences the consequences of her actions.

Amazing how the brain repairs itself once you are away from the source of the madness.


They hoped by delaying the court dates that you would get bored and drop the action. Once the anger dissipates, most people give up. But you are not most people. Your children are learning incredibly valuable life lessons from the way you are handling this.

Hi Living Well,

It really is amazing how fast recovery happens in Plan B. Now when I look back at what my life was like a year ago, I can't imagine what psychological forces were leading me to desire to stay in that situation. Why did I want my husband and my marriage so much?! What was I afraid of that prevented me from thinking of leaving? I recall being anxious about the thought of being a single mum of four children, but I think the main reason was just my attachment to the idea of being married. It's so sad to realise that I was the one trapping myself in that situation because of a fantasy of how I thought I wanted my life to be. What a relief to be free of the prison I had created for myself. Now WH is living there on his own, without all the things I was doing to make that prison bearable.

There is no aspect of mine and the kids' life now that is not 1000% improved over how we were living before. Our separation is better for me, better for the kids, better for our finances, safer, less anxious, more stable and secure, and much HAPPIER. Sure, we all wish WH wasn't such a bad person. But there's nothing we can do about that, it's all on him. And letting him make all of our lives miserable and difficult helps no one.

I think because I was not acting in anger to start with, there is no danger of me losing interest in making all the bad people in my life feel the consequences of their actions - with the hope that experiencing consequences might lead to self reflection and improvement. Now that I understand that protecting people from the consequences of their actions is what makes bad people continue to behave badly, I will make sure that I do not stand in the way of fate in any part of my life - and especially as I bring up my children. This has been the single most valuable life lesson I have learned from MB, closely followed by look at people's actions, don't listen to their words.

I love this post, Chalk. So clearly articulates so many of the same things I have been thinking. Glad to hear you are in a happy place.

Chalk, this is so well said. That is exactly how I felt (and still do from time to time which I am fighting to control), and I am certain how most of us who were in broken relationships felt. Thanks for being inspiration on this board!

How are you doing, Chalk? I feel like we are classmates, Betrayed Wives, class of 2017. Hope you are doing well!!

Hi Amac, thanks so much for checking on me! I am excited - and a bit apprehensive - to hear your news. I think I would have very mixed and apprehensive feelings if my WH suddenly turned up saying his affair/s is/are over! But I really hope you can navigate your way through recovery without the pain of false recoveries.

I am fine, but fighting battles with many other evil people that seem to have come into my life since I learnt from the experience with WH how to recognise manipulation, deceit and power games. MB gives you so many skills for life not just marriage And thanks to WH, i also have loads of experience with courts and lawyers which is holding me in good stead now.

PS. My court battles with OW are continuing. I just came back last night from another day in court in our previous country. The prosecutor is again trying to derail the case by accepting a ridiculous application for discharge a full month after the deadline had passed. The papers had not even been signed by the defence counsel before being served. But at least I was there, so I have taken a copy of the papers and am doing a reply myself. I have a friend who will sit with the prosecutor on Thursday and make sure he corrects all errors of fact, states the prosecution case properly, and does not allow the defence to violate all the rules (as seems to be his intention). However, they are running out of options to prevent the inevitable. It looks increasingly likely that we will be able to get the conviction despite the prosecutor not saying two words in court during the entire case. Thank goodness the other prosecution witnesses have been helping me so much!