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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
.
. I also got the impression that he is organising meetings with me which aren't strictly necessary - including two full day meetings on Saturday and Sunday last week. Do advocates normally sit with the client to draft everything without the attorney being there?! He also keeps buying me breakfasts and lunches and only charged me for 1.5 or the 5 days we were meeting last week.....which is quite non-lawyer-like behaviour.

I also found out from someone else that he has taken my divorce attorney to task for not doing a good enough job on my cases, and brought in this other attorney to do my work stuff, who then subsequently brought him in as the advocate. I did not know until last week that it was him that organised all these things for me. I thought my divirce attorney had found the labour law attorney herself. So all in all he is helping me out a lot. There is no inappropriate communication but i do feel a bit awkward about the fact that he hugs me quite hard every time we meet. Why don't all countries shake hands like us brits?!?! Much safer!!!!

Oh Ok, so he's just a bit too bloody keen. Aaaaaand I doubt he would go this much to bat for a male client. There's something about damsels in distress that send even professional men a bit bonkers. Think of it as being a leetle bit patronising if that helps.

Yeah actually the money stuff doesn't really pass the smell test. My sights are on him now.

Do you even WANT him being the boss of all your lawyers and segueing all your important legal stuff into almost dates? Because you are the actual boss here.

If you do want to keep him around I think you might be able to frost the atmosphere a bit with boss-like scripts and a new found emphasis on needing to be more 'efficient' with meetings and time.

Something like:

What's on the agenda and how long will it take?
Can you do that without me and send me an update?
Things are quite hectic at the moment and I won't have time for breakfast/lunch. Is it possible to do this in half an hour over coffee?
Our last meeting didn't have much on the agenda. How about we schedule two meet ups this week instead of three? Ive noticed youre not even charging for those later meets! If something else comes up feel free to update me by phone?
I should have brought this up earlier but I'm not a hugger!
You know what? *does the oprah hug block* I don't hug at business meetings! (Let this last one hang super awkwardly because he deserves it)

In other words I would take charge of the schedule IF I felt confident he could be respectful of my time.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
- including two full day meetings on Saturday and Sunday last week.

Oh good lord; reclaim your weekends!

*faints*


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Is this guy married?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is this guy married?

Yup!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
.
. I also got the impression that he is organising meetings with me which aren't strictly necessary - including two full day meetings on Saturday and Sunday last week. Do advocates normally sit with the client to draft everything without the attorney being there?! He also keeps buying me breakfasts and lunches and only charged me for 1.5 or the 5 days we were meeting last week.....which is quite non-lawyer-like behaviour.

I also found out from someone else that he has taken my divorce attorney to task for not doing a good enough job on my cases, and brought in this other attorney to do my work stuff, who then subsequently brought him in as the advocate. I did not know until last week that it was him that organised all these things for me. I thought my divirce attorney had found the labour law attorney herself. So all in all he is helping me out a lot. There is no inappropriate communication but i do feel a bit awkward about the fact that he hugs me quite hard every time we meet. Why don't all countries shake hands like us brits?!?! Much safer!!!!

Oh Ok, so he's just a bit too bloody keen. Aaaaaand I doubt he would go this much to bat for a male client. There's something about damsels in distress that send even professional men a bit bonkers. Think of it as being a leetle bit patronising if that helps.

Yeah actually the money stuff doesn't really pass the smell test. My sights are on him now.

Do you even WANT him being the boss of all your lawyers and segueing all your important legal stuff into almost dates? Because you are the actual boss here.

If you do want to keep him around I think you might be able to frost the atmosphere a bit with boss-like scripts and a new found emphasis on needing to be more 'efficient' with meetings and time.

Something like:

What's on the agenda and how long will it take?
Can you do that without me and send me an update?
Things are quite hectic at the moment and I won't have time for breakfast/lunch. Is it possible to do this in half an hour over coffee?
Our last meeting didn't have much on the agenda. How about we schedule two meet ups this week instead of three? Ive noticed youre not even charging for those later meets! If something else comes up feel free to update me by phone?
I should have brought this up earlier but I'm not a hugger!
You know what? *does the oprah hug block* I don't hug at business meetings! (Let this last one hang super awkwardly because he deserves it)

In other words I would take charge of the schedule IF I felt confident he could be respectful of my time.

Thanks so much Indie. He is a really good lawyer and was also a magistrate for 9 years in the same jurisdiction that all my cases are being heard, so he is a useful person to be working with. And I do want to emphasise that he is not actively coming on to me, but that I feel that he is attracted to me and I am attracted by him being really nice, which worries me. But yes, you are right, I just need to keep my distance and limit the time together. There really isn't any need for us to physically be sitting next to each other to draft things. All my other experience with advocates is very arms-length and involves them drafting things on the basis of the info I supply to the attorney, with perhaps an hour long consultation to get the timelines right. Then they email the documents to me for me to check. I need to make myself less available, even if I am on a paid holiday from work wink

I am totally not a hugger and it does already get quite awkward if the labour attorney is also present who I wouldn't imagine hugging and sometimes a candidate attorney (a young lady) too. I then have this terrible dilemma about whether I need to hug them both too - even though the advocate hug wasn't initiated by me - and it all gets a bit stressful. I am going to look up the oprah hug block....



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by living_well
Tricky situation because you really need someone to advocate for you. I have had an advocate helping me post divorce (failure to disclose/divide the assets). They are a million times better than lawyers as they can cut through the issues.

I agree with Indie, no personal conversation. If he asks you how your children are, answer with 'oh by the way, we still have not resolved xyzzy issue'.

Is there a polite way for you to duck the hugs?

Thanks a lot Living Well. I have so far avoided personal conversation but it has been a real surprise to me how much i really want to overshare. That 15-step list someone posted on here a few years ago about how affairs start is very true. Because I am attracted to him, I can observe myself wanting to go through all those steps. It's enlightening to see it in practice after reading so much here. But also a bit worrying because I definitely DO NOT want to start relationships with inappropriate people nor while I am still married, regardless of how my husband behaves.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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chalk, good job noticing the warning signs and for taking the appropriate measures to prevent it from continuing!


BH (me) 50, WxW 47
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D-day, plan A, & exposure Jan 2017
Divorced Nov 2017
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Originally Posted by abrrba
chalk, good job noticing the warning signs and for taking the appropriate measures to prevent it from continuing!

You are feeling this because you are so much in need of this kind of help. It will pass as long as you maintain your boundaries which I am sure you will. At some point he will try to take it to the next step and you will look completely astonished. That will be the end of that.

He is right by the way, your divorce lawyer is too concerned about looking good in front of the court. She needs a proverbial kick. I had the same problem. Mine has now got boots with metal spikes but it took a while.



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Good catch there by Brainy; in my opinion his being married is a game changer. Typically married guys know to avoid women they find attractive! And he's helping you during a vulnerable time? Yeeukkk.

He may just have poor boundaries and not be an actual wayward...but this would tilt me towards 'get rid'. See how he goes.

The hugging, too...., man. It is always ok and polite to say 'no thank you!' to those. Always! You can even say it during/after a lunge that took you by surprise. I mean, you can block hugs by doing the Oprah thing or just step back and gave them a fistbump. Or pre empt it with an extended hand as you walk in with a "Don't get up. Seriously '. But it's not your responsibility to block hugs, so if you've failed to block, and are mid hug(grab?) don't let that stop you from saying 'whoops, did I mention I don't hug? I'm just so British I guess!'

Remember that it is HIS responsibility to make sure hugs are ok. If he hasn't done that, he's the one making it weird, not you.

Women are socialised to smooth all this stuff over, but stuff that. If he's making a misstep you're allowed to speak up.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
[quote=chalkncheese].
Yeah actually the money stuff doesn't really pass the smell test. My sights are on him now.

Maybe I'm overinterpreting that. We have an agreed bundle rate for preparation and appearance. But I was just surprised to be invoiced by the attorney for only one day - even though we had spent 5 in a single week. Although one of the days was for the other case, so maybe I will get the costs in the end. I've started to really examine whether the words I use are totally exactly true now that every breath is scrutinised in court. It gives you a whole new persective on the way people communicate and how careless we can sometimes be in describing things.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Typically married guys know to avoid women they find attractive!

Is this really true? I hope so. Because I really have very little faith in men these days.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Chalk...its true! I swear! Men are awesome. You could go out there into a crowd of men, randomly select and usually he's a nice one. Maybe not ideal for you but he'll be decent enough generally.

You will NOT feel this way during a divorce, when a ceremonial dinner bell has been rung for the vultures. No you won't.

But I give you leave to be wary of this dude. I'm not saying he's an out and out wayward; but put yourself in his wife's shoes!

Wife: "How was your day?"
Him: "I did a lot of free work and paid for someone's lunch because the client is a cutie"
Wife: "What?!"
Him:" Nothing!"

He's not being honest with her, I'll wager.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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What EN's does he meet and how can you prevent that next time?

If you look at him with in your mind that he gives you his weekends instead of spending precious time with his wife and family, does that help you to prevent him from making love bank deposits? I hope another perspective will give you tools to minimize his opportunities to make deposits.

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Is this guy married?
If a succesful man above a certain age is not married, 9 times out of 10 there is something 'wrong' with him (he does not want to be married or he is gay).

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Chalk...its true! I swear! Men are awesome. You could go out there into a crowd of men, randomly select and usually he's a nice one. Maybe not ideal for you but he'll be decent enough generally.

You will NOT feel this way during a divorce, when a ceremonial dinner bell has been rung for the vultures. No you won't.

Hahaha! OK, I will take your word for it for now, but will wait to be convinced laugh


Originally Posted by indiegirl
But I give you leave to be wary of this dude. I'm not saying he's an out and out wayward; but put yourself in his wife's shoes!

Wife: "How was your day?"
Him: "I did a lot of free work and paid for someone's lunch because the client is a cutie"
Wife: "What?!"
Him:" Nothing!"

He's not being honest with her, I'll wager.

I love this! You are really good at putting things in their proper perpective. Yeah, of course he is not being radically honest with his wife. Just like I was innocently carrying on with my married life, raising four children and working full time while WH was up to all sorts of nonsense with pretty much every woman he came across during the course of the working day before homing home for dinner with his family to pretend to be a perfect family man. Gosh, men are terrible. See point 1 above.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
What EN's does he meet and how can you prevent that next time?

If you look at him with in your mind that he gives you his weekends instead of spending precious time with his wife and family, does that help you to prevent him from making love bank deposits? I hope another perspective will give you tools to minimize his opportunities to make deposits.

Hi Goody, actually that is a REALLY good idea. I also tried thinking of him in terms of how my WH was/is behaving towards all women in the world. That definitely helps to be turned off by the behaviour. The other day I was thinking about what you had mentioned about your previous experience almost unintentionally being an OW and thinking it must have been so difficult to talk yourself out of that relationship. It has been 1.5 years now that I have been trying to tell myself that WH is not the person I thought he was, but if I ever catch snippets of his voice, it makes it almost impossible to maintain that idea in my head because it is so easy to fall back into old patterns of behaviour and communications with someone you know well.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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WH has randomly turned up in this country today without any advance notice. I got an email from my lawyer this morning saying that his lawyer had requested that he see take the kids for a week. Grrrr!!! It is so frustrating. We have a court order saying that he has to make arrangements in writing at least 7 days in advance, and that he has to supply his travel itinerary and accomodation booking, but he just ignores everything and then forces me into the position of having to refuse for him to see the children because he hasn't done the very small easy things he was supposed to do in order to make an arrangement.

At least this time my lawyer doesn't seem to be so hesitant about telling him this behaviour is unacceptable.

Last edited by chalkncheese; 07/04/18 02:43 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
At least this time my lawyer doesn't seem to be so hesitant about telling him this behaviour is unacceptable.

Good and I hope he is not going to be allowed to see the children at all. Be firm. You presumably are aware that he is doing this as a way to needle you.

He will only learn to stop breaking the rules if there are consequences when he does so.



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I have to agree. "Given that scheduling should be routine by now, I have to insist that the children not be continually disrupted in this way. We are way past the transition period where mistakes may be overlooked. I cannot cancel the children's appointments and activities yet again and WH should not expect this to happen at all from now on".


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Thanks Living Well and Indie. Yes, I know he is just doing it to frustrate me - which works!!!! And to gain control where he thinks I am controlling everything. He refuses/avoids all attempts to schedule things and to work out details in all aspects of his life. He prefers to maintain a state of permanent uncertainty about where he is, what he is doing and when or whether he might turn up (I think of him like Schrodinger's cat - existing in all possible states at all times). The permanent uncertainty is what facilitates his multiple secret lives. He manages to maintain this confusion by never answering any questions properly, and always giving vague, misleading and often contradictory stories to everyone about everything, no matter how insignificant, and, if anyone gets upset by his failure to keep promises or do what he said he would do (he disarms people by enthusiastically agreeing to things and making commitments), he just charms them out of their annoyance, and thereby avoids any negative consequences.

Its not just in marriage, this is the way he is. When I worked out that was what he was doing - and then consciously tried to keep my wits about me while he was trying to charm me and distract me out of demanding the answers to questions - I found that it took an incredible amount of effort to force one straight answer out of him. But that is just one. When I was being flooded with hundreds of misleading/untrue vague statements every single day. He is a master manipulator and a person like me does not stand a chance. He will fight and fight and fight to get his opponent to abandon the normal rules of the game (ie, laws, social conventions, moral values, etc) so that everything is a negotiation or a discussion. Because once you agree to engage with him on his rules - which is, there are no rules and everything is up for negotiation - he knows you will lose every time.

Every other time he has seen the kids (I think there have actually only been three times since I moved country last year) he has preferred to take me to court and/or go to a police station to try to get me arrested rather than supply the travel itinerary 7 days in advance like he is supposed to. Because agreeing to schedule a visit once will mean, in his mind, that I am controlling him forever. His ego is very sensitive to what he percieves as me dictating things. His idea of negotiation is him dictating things. Or, better, me providing a series of options that he gets to decide between (this is better for him because then I have to do the research on the options. He's too lazy/doesn't care enough to do research himself). I think he would prefer not to see the children than to have to schedule a visit. I expect that he will return to his home country in a week's time without having seen them at all.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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