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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,937
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I doubt that anyone remembers me, but I thought I'd post a note to give people an update (as well as some hope). When I showed up at MB 23 years ago, I had just discovered that my wife was having an affair. We had two young children (7,3) and like everyone else, I was completely devastated. Heartbroken. Confused. I'm a scientist by training, and I searched the internet looking for help (and back then, it was dial-up, baby!). I found this site. Read the articles. It made sense. And in a moment of hopeless desperation, called the counseling line (after 5), expecting to leave a sad message. But no, Steve Harley picked up. We spoke for a bit, set up a session, and he helped talk me off of the ledge.

What a ride that was. My wife and I ended up separated after Plan A/B, but that ended when she got pregnant by the OM. I moved back, the affair broke up, and I worked to try to mend my wife's broken heart (which wasn't particularly easy). The child was born, and he's been a joy and blessing to me--soon to be 22 years old! Our marriage never recovered as it should have—lots of reasons for that, but in the end we got better for a few years, but never regained the state of intimacy that we had. She had a minor stroke a couple years after giving birth which didn't help. Another several years passed and I realized that I wouldn't ever have the marriage that I wanted, but I was OK with staying in a benign friendship and raising the kids. However, the marriage deteriorated further. At times, I sensed the old 'affair' patterns that my wife exhibited with the first one, and I would 'politely' ask her if she were having an affair—that we had agreed to let each other know before that [censored] occurred—but she would deny it. My daughter and wife were huge into dog showing, and during a summer circuit my daughter became suspicious that my wife was cheating, so she did the investigative work to confirm her suspicions. When she had confirmation, she asked me to visit (she lived about an hour away). She broke the news to me in person, and I had to let her know the history between her mom and I—why I wasn't surprised—and what I would do about it. We discovered two serial affairs, and the last one was probably still 'active'. Based on my wife's behavior over the years, I doubt that she had others, but she has been known to surprise me!

So, the short version is that I asked my wife to leave (we had a mutual friend that she could stay with). I asked her to get into counseling, try to decide if she wanted to stay marriage, and if so, I would do joint counseling with her to work on the marriage. I also told her that I would not settle for our current or old marriage—it was going to be great, romantic, fulfilling for the both of us, or I wasn't going to stay with her. She went off and didn't do anything for a couple months; I had the house and kids and animals. I eventually prodded her into the individual counseling, but it didn't appear to go anywhere. At this point, I told her that I was going to file for divorce, and that I thought it would be best if we could hash out a settlement between the two of us rather than throwing expensive lawyers at each other. At this point, she said she wanted to do marriage counseling, so I asked her to find a counselor. She put that back on me, so I got the owner of the clinic where she was doing individual therapy, and we started there. Did about 3 months of this knowing that it was 99.9995% sure that it was not going to work. It didn't. On our 30th anniversary I had to make an emergency trip to visit daughter (who had moved) and return (about a 12 hour drive). The day after, she went to spend the rest of the summer with her boyfriend. We divorced that December (I kept her on my insurance as long as possible, but we got in before the IRS rules switched). As I would say, she got much more than she deserved in the settlement, but less than she might have gotten with a lawyer.

So, after a 30 year marriage (with the last 22 or so sex-free), I was divorce. That's the sad/happy news.

The neat this about this was that fall (before divorce), I was trying to decide whether I wanted to date again. If anyone would be interested in an 'old man' (57 at the time). I had last dated in the 80's, fer christsake... I had an awesome support group at work through this whole ordeal: friends and coworkers from their late 20's to their 50's. I asked a few trusted friends if they could think of anyone in their circle who would be interested, but nothing really materialized. Because I live in a relatively rural area, I wasn't gonna attempt to hit up people at church or anything like that. I also wasn't going to try to date coworkers. So, after asking my STBX if she was OK with me trying online dating (see, I'm polite...), I put up a profile on Match.com, and started communicating with women. I'm sure several people have had absolutely horrid experiences with online dating (I've heard them), but I found a handful of women who I thought were interesting and would be decent potential dating partners. I actually had phone calls with two of these women, and one asked me out on a date. That date happened 6 days from me putting up the profile... so I was crazy anxious, excited, etc. I went out to my Friday 'divorce support therapy' happy hour before going on the date—my crew was excited for me but told me to have reasonable expectations.

And then I met her. She was fantastic. Smart (a major newspaper reporter for nearly 20 years turned to the tech field), funny, flirty, beautiful, independent, and an incredible sense of humor. Two hours into the date, and I'm thinking "she's the one,,, she can't be the one, you idiot! ... but she's incredible ... she's probably an axe murderer..." We decided that evening to get off of Match, commit to exclusive dating, and do a thorough vetting process to get to know each other. That worked so incredibly well that we were engaged in another few months, and I'm in the process of selling my home and we're buying another home to move in together. The relationship is far beyond anything that I could have even imagined—in fact, if you had asked me to describe my perfect 'partner', that description would pale in comparison to my fiancee. I thank God every day for her, and we're so tremendously happy that it's really somewhere between disgusting and revolting!

It was also so much fun to give my 20-something support crew [censored] about online dating... "That took me like less than a week... I don't know why you guys are doing it for years!"

So, I'm not going to hang around here much--but I thought that I'd say thanks again to the Harley's for putting this material out, for building the site and support forum, and a special shout-out to Steve for all the work we did nearly a quarter century ago. It didn't let me solve the puzzle of my old marriage, but it did help me be a better father, a more patient friend (and boss), and it set me up to recognize an amazing woman when I got the opportunity, and to use these principles to forge a beautiful new love. So 'yay'—and to those of you in the dregs of an affair, have hope. (I also hope it won't take you 20+ years... smile )

Joined: Jun 2020
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Your daughter didn't know about the prior affair? So she didn't know her brother was her half-brother ---weren't you worried they would do a 23 and me or some other genetic test at some point and discover they weren't full siblings? I assume your son knows right?

How is your daughter's relationship with her mother (and you) now? -- I'm stunned she'd spent all those years with a serial cheating mother, even running around on the dog show circuit with her likely for years, unaware of her ability to betray you and her family AND YET have the decency to investigate and expose her mother's most recent affairs. Did SHE confront your ex-wife too (I'm guessing your daughter was used as cover many times)? I imagine a lot of pennies dropped for your daughter about your marriage and even herself, once you filled her in on the whole story.

This could be a really helpful discussion for those getting divorced a little earlier in the life cycle of adultery to understand the cost/benefits of just sticking it out "no matter what". There is always a tricky balance between staying in a loveless marriage "for the kids" and the lessons kids end up learning from parents that remain in an unrecovered marriage. How are your children handling their own relationships as adults? It's anecdotal because every kid and situation is different but I pray they are not struggling. A broken divorced home would have had it's own set consequences, I just wonder if you can ascertain and detail any specific consequences (to kids, yourself) from a broken un-divorced home that might help those wondering if they just should have stayed married more comfortable with the decision to divorce an unrepentant cheater.


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Hi Quality:

I like to say that words matter, so I'll attempt to put some of this into perspective. To reconcile the timeline a bit, my wife's first affair was in 1997. Her second (and third) were in the 2005-2008 timeframe, so we're talking about 20 years or so between them. I wouldn't consider her a 'serial' cheater, but it was much easier for me to proceed through the path of divorce after the second time (and the two affairs were uncovered simultaneously). I also wouldn't characterize her as 'unrepentant'; she simply didn't have the emotional makeup to fully recover and recommit to the marriage. One reason I left these boards long was because the language here was getting more black/white; I found it unhelpful to deal with real situations with nuance.

With regards to my daughter: her relationship with mom was horrific after the uncovering of the affair. I'm the one who broke it to my ex; my daughter let me know what was going on. It wasn't something that was unexpected—I had seen some of the behaviors in her that I had seen 20 years ago, and I had asked her straight up if she was having an affair. She would deny it. And honestly, at that point our relationship was broken enough that I'm not sure that I cared enough to put effort into investigating. In the case of the first affair, we did recover some of the aspects of the marriage; I'd say we got back to about 80% within the first year or two afterwards, but she had a (minor) stroke after that, and we stalled—and then after about 10 years started a steadier decline. My daughter was probably not exposed to much of the 'cheating' stuff because they had been showing together for 15 years before any of this happened. My daughter had borrowed mom's phone, got some texts that made her sniffer go up, and then she investigated (at the time, she was out of college). So no, my ex didn't use my daughter as cover, which was good. Their relationship has significantly repaired in the intervening few years (which is great). It's not back to what it was, but these are valuable lessons about making mistakes and dealing with them.

So, I'd probably not categorize our home life as broken un-divorced. There wasn't (much) fighting, no abuse. There was a lack of physical affirmations of love, and some 'you do this stuff with the kids, I'll do this stuff', so not as much 'togetherness' as I would have liked. In many ways, I've felt that this was my one big failure; to not give my kids an environment where they could see a healthy, thriving marriage in action. But in reality, their home life was better than most. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to split custody with the kids, so this basically worked reasonably well for me. As I was getting towards the end of the marriage, I realized (and our counselor suspected) that my ex fell on the covert narcissism spectrum. For the last 10 years of our marriage I felt as mainly a friend and caretaker of my wife—she was profoundly unhappy at times, prone to getting angry quickly, etc. I managed that with her and the kids. It wasn't particularly fun, but I was certainly glad that I was there to support the kids (and my ex), but after dealing with that for so long, when the [censored] hit the fan I was pretty ready to move on. The youngest was 18+ at the time, so that was an advantage as well. The pros of all this were than I got to raise all the kids full time, that my ex and I did have some good times together through this (not obviously as many as I'd like), that I grew as an individual and learned some excellent marriage skills (and some maladaptive coping skills--I do a bit of therapy to work through this, but I'm a quick study). The cons were being in a sexless marriage (I love sex!), and eventually having to deal with a woman whose personality was changing for the worse (it could also be that my tolerance was getting lower after 25 years...).

You ask how the kids are doing with relationships? Probably like all kids. Ups, downs, etc. I don't see any particular pathologies in their relationships based on what they experienced growing up. Are they struggling? Sure, at times. What 20-something doesn't? But no worse (I think) than others.

The final part is that my son actually doesn't know. At times, he has said things that make me suspect. It has been a joy, delight, and privilege to raise this child into the young man that he's become. Using the policy of joint agreement, my ex and I never were able to negotiate telling him while we were marriage, and I've asked her to tell him now that we're divorced—this is more on her. The other two kids know (my oldest discovered letters that my ex kept from me). I have mixed feelings about this. I asked my wife to leave the house during my son's first semester in college, and it really impacted his life (even thought he pretended it didn't). It was hard on him, and I didn't want to heap more [censored] on top. At the end of the day—of my three children, he's the only one that I chose. I could have walked away from the marriage all those years ago, saved myself a bundle of money, and been free and clear. I didn't: I decided to stay, I hoped that I could love him as much as my other kids. In the end, that was the absolute right choice for me, it was completely worth the costs. I can't say this would be true for anyone else... but for me, it was a solid decision. And one that I discussed with Steve Harley—who at the time thought that I'd be in good shape with it. So in some ways, I'm just popping in to let him know that I'm doing fine, and stuff mostly worked out...

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Originally Posted by K
Using the policy of joint agreement, my ex and I never were able to negotiate telling him while we were marriage, and I've asked her to tell him now that we're divorced—this is more on her.

This young man is your son. You didn't have to adopt him. I can't see how this is "more on her". POJA is over and as the denials and affairs you had to discover [and experience] each and every time --- your ex-wife struggles with honesty and lacks character. You simply can not rely on her to tell the truth to your son at all. IMO, this is something that actually should be done now. Without your ex-wife mudding up the situation. He's 18/19 or 20 and it might help him really come to grips with understanding all of this. It's pretty disrespectful that his siblings know and he doesn't. That might be the most upsetting thing he'll learn and it's terrible they were told to keep a secret from him as well. To be clear -- you are not obligated to ask your ex-wife for permission anymore for anything. She no longer has anything to do with your relationship with your children. If she's bothered by it after the fact she can get bent. You might offer a feigned quick apology followed by an --- "ooops, was that wrong, my bad" and move on. She can't put the genie back in the bottle at that point. You are and always have been the more responsible and loving parent to this entire family. If you agree with me your son needs and deserves to be told --- rip off the band-aide yourself and turn the page on being the boss of your own life.

For some talking points to consider would be countering any effects of all the recent revelations and divorce has had on the whole family. Your children watched you suffer and put up with an angry and depressed abusive [yes- serial cheating] wife that they now learn cheated on you multiple times. That's got to have an effect on what they THINK love means and how they are expected to react in the future when someone abuses them (shut up and take it for the good of everyone else because it's not about your happiness) and that's only if they take after you and didn't learn to be a selfish narcissist, like mom. Read through Jennifer Chalmer's article about the things children learn from adultery Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn.


Quote
At the end of the day—of my three children, he's the only one that I chose. I could have walked away from the marriage all those years ago, saved myself a bundle of money, and been free and clear. I didn't: I decided to stay, I hoped that I could love him as much as my other kids. In the end, that was the absolute right choice for me, it was completely worth the costs. I can't say this would be true for anyone else... but for me, it was a solid decision. And one that I discussed with Steve Harley—who at the time thought that I'd be in good shape with it. So in some ways, I'm just popping in to let him know that I'm doing fine, and stuff mostly worked out...

I have heard this many times. Very often adopted and other non-biological children who do not share our own DNA end up being easier children to raise because they don't remind of the worst parts of ourselves. Time to show him AGAIN how much you really love him by telling him the truth about his life and let the chips fall as they may for you & your ex-wife. She's a big girl she can handle it. Protecting her sensitivity isn't your job anymore. Honesty IS black and white and your family could use a good shot of honesty now. No more family secrets. There is no "nuance" to lying to your kids about their own lives. You have the opportunity now to be the source of complete honesty and transparency; and, in so doing, you may realize FINALLY --- 20 years later -- it is so much more black and white than you ever thought.

In other words, it's great I guess you sacrificed years of your life living in a quite mediocre emotional abusive marriage "for your kids" and that it turned out reasonably well for them --- so far. And it sounds like most of this is your ex-wife's fault HOWEVER, you choose to lie and cover for her. To hold on to family secrets and pretend everything was fine. These were your choices that you can apologize for yourself --- alone ---and choose to move forward by being more authenticate and behaving honestly.

But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Colossians 3:8-10 NIV



*I went back and read some early posts by you --- try something different --- take some advice and just do it -- stop overthinking it and just offer and follow through with being honest with all your children about everything. Do it for you.


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